"Realistic" gun damage

[Christopher]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

Hey, like I've said before, I really wasn't thinking about requiring a degree in trauma surgery for the players - note the quotation marks in the thread name.

 

Two things prompted my query:

 

1) The relatively low spread, e.g. .22 plinker/1d6 - .50 BFG /3d6 (excacerbated by me coming from GURPS, where damage can be substantially higher with BODY/HP being pretty much the same)

You totally forget the advantages in your calculation:

The Plinker is 2DC Killing Damage, with +1 Range Modifeir and +1 OCV

The .50 M2HB HMG has +1 OCV, +4 Range Modifier and a 3d6 KA with 10 Shoot Autofire (+1) and Increased Stun (+1/4) for a whoppin 20 DC(!). You can attack a 10m line or up to 10 characters per Attack action.

 

If you use the Advanaced Autofire Skills Form APG I 36 you can: Add +1 DC per shot (ignoring the Autofire for adding those DC) instead of archieving extra hits, or +1 OCV per every two shoots fired (instead of multiple hits) or reduce the multiple hit treshold to 1 not 2. Also most characters in games where you use those weapons (heroic) propably don't have anything near the defenses needed. The .50 M2HB HMG weapon can make a Total Party Kill with one attack Action.

 

2 too 20 is a spread of 18 Damage Classes.

 

2) Black powder weaponry doing more damage than anti-vehicular weapons' date=' because they've got a bigger caliber, i.e. bullet size beating all other technological implications.[/quote']

Okay, now I am nto certain what valeus you have. The M72A3 LAW Rocket has 6.5d6, with Area Of Effect (explosion), Armor Piercing (+1/4) and Increased Stun (+1/4). It can easily make a TPK with one attack.

[megaplayboy]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

There's also the Compendium of Modern Firearms by Kevin Dockery. I used to have that one as well' date=' and found it the most useful of all for its sheer inclusiveness. I don't recall another RPG supplement that listed so many real-world firearms (with game stats) as the [i']Compendium.[/i]

 

And now I'm thinking maybe I shoulda kept that one. Anyway, it's still available.

 

The precursor to that one was a book called The Armory, also by Dockery. He was also the author of the original(3d edition?) Golden Age of Champions.

[Ragitsu]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

Okay' date=' now I am nto certain what valeus you have. The M72A3 LAW Rocket has 6.5d6, with Area Of Effect (explosion), Armor Piercing (+1/4) and Increased Stun (+1/4). It can easily make a TPK with one attack.[/quote']

 

Can you represent the differences between HE, HEAT, and HEDP, rockets, in HERO?

[Christopher]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

Can you represent the differences between HE' date=' HEAT, [i']and[/i] HEDP, rockets, in HERO?

Sure, once you tell me what the short parts mean

[Ragitsu]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

Sure' date=' once you tell me what the short parts mean [/quote']

 

Short parts?

[Christopher]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

Short parts?

Sorry, but I think to know waht HE means (High Explosive). No diea bout the other two.

[L. Marcus]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

Sure' date=' once you tell me what the short parts mean [/quote']

 

High Explosive, High Explosive Anti-Tank, and High Explosive Dual Purpose, respectively. First is anti-infantry, second is anti-tank shaped charge, and the third is both.

[Christopher]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

High Explosive' date=' High Explosive Anti-Tank, and High Explosive Dual Purpose, respectively. First is anti-infantry, second is anti-tank shaped charge, and the third is both.[/quote']

First we have to put the book exampels somwehre. I would think it might serve as a good Dual Purpose (it has explosion + Armor Piercing + a 6.5d Killing Attack).

For the Anti Tank Only Drop the Area of Effect, increase Armor Piercing (if modern tanks tend to have hardened defenses) or just the raw Damage.

For Anti Personel Drop the AP, increase the raw Damage (up to the point where the DC becoem equal again). Maybe add some Reduced Penetration to get even more Damage for the same real Cost.

[megaplayboy]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

A quick primer:

HE= High Explosive, relying for damage on blast wave and fragmentation

HEAT= High Explosive, Anti-Tank, a "shaped charge", which channels the explosion into a narrowly focused blast, intended to punch through armor

HEDP=High Explosive, Dual Purpose, a charge with both explosive and armor-piercing qualities

HESH=High Explosive, Squash Head, a round designed to explode against armor, causing a shock wave which causes pieces of armor inside the target to break off and spall inside, killing everyone inside(probably a Penetrating effect)

AP= Armor Piercing, a standard round using a sharp/hardened steel shot to penetrate armor

APCR= Armor Piercing, Composite Rigid, a WW2-era round, using harder steel and usually a tungsten core to penetrate armor

API=Armor Piercing, Incendiary, a round designed to ignite flammable parts of the target(e.g., to punch through an armored gas tank and trigger an explosion, or to set ammo on fire)

APDS= Armor Piercing, Discarding Sabot, a round which contains a smaller, long metal dart, or "sabot", designed to punch through armor using only kinetic energy

APFSDS= Armor Piercing, Fin Stabilized, Discarding Sabot, same principle, except it uses small aerodynamic fins to help stabilize the sabot and make it more accurate over longer distances

APCFSDS=the "C" stands for Capped, I have no idea what that does

APCFSDSDU= uses Depleted Uranium to create a harder, denser sabot, penetrating more armor

HEI= High Explosive Incendiary

WP= White Phosphorus

HVAP=High Velocity Armor Piercing

See also this lovely chart from globalsecurity.org

[ATTACH=CONFIG]42852[/ATTACH]

[Christopher]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

let's see:

HE: High Raw Damage with Explosion Area of Effect. Propably reduced penetration (don't even try agaisn armored vehicles).

HEAT: No area of effect. Everything towards penetrating the armor (higehr base Damage. More Armoir Piercing)

HEDP: Mix between HE and HEAT. Propably the book example

HESH: Sounds like a form of indirect to me (damage the Humans on the inside, not the tank), exactly like the APDS

 

AP: like HEAT, but Shells isntead of LAW

APCR: Waht could that mean? Better agaisnt older armors? Or jsut the cheaper variant of AP?

API: Depends heavily on how the Fuel Tanks are build. Could be Called Shot Skill Lvl vs. Fuel Tanks/Engine or jsut have the Right SFX to use a vulnerabiltiy. Or Penetrating, only to disable a certain part of the vehicle.

 

APDS: As my brother explained it to me I would say Indirect with small area of effect, to kill the Crew (and not the vehicle).

APFSDS: Same with Range Skill Levels

APCFSDSDU: Less limit on the armor (more Indirect to coutner the counteracts indirect?) it can peentrate than any of the previous.

 

HEI: Some sort of Fire based, Continous/Uncotnrolled/Continous Charges Area of Effect. Maybe Sticky as well?

WP: As HEO, but harder to extinguish. Depends on how the Flames are built

 

Most of this stuff is just different generations of the same idea. Propably deep in the "Advantage, Counter Advantage, more Advantage" armsrace.

[megaplayboy]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

Sure, if you want to get really deep in the weeds, you can consider the other end, armor:

RHA: Rolled, Homogenous Armor(usually assumed to be steel)

Sloped armor: increases relative thickness of armor for penetration purposes

Spaced armor: a few vehicles in WW2 did this, a thin layer of outer armor, then some empty space before the regular armor

Composite, Compound, Ceramic, Laminated or Chobham armor--an advanced modern armor designed to be more resistant to armor-piercing rounds, particularly HEAT rounds(hardened or double hardened, possibly impenetrable as well)

Reactive armor--an outer layer of armor which explodes outward when struck, designed to defeat some kinds of armor-penetrating projectiles(extra defense, only vs. X type warheads, ablative)

Active Defense System--this is either an automated short range counter-defense system which destroys or intercepts incoming projectiles before they arrive, or some kind of electromagnetic "force field" which triggers the round to explode prematurely (likely defined as Missile Deflection, probably with a trigger)

 

Edit--forgot about DU--depleted uranium has been added to the armor of some M1 tanks in order to bolster their penetration resistance. As ludicrous as the writeup was in TUV or HSVS(30 DEF, hardened, for frontal armor), it's not terribly far off the mark, based on field accounts.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

 

Two things prompted my query:

 

1) The relatively low spread, e.g. .22 plinker/1d6 - .50 BFG /3d6 (excacerbated by me coming from GURPS, where damage can be substantially higher with BODY/HP being pretty much the same)

 

You have to wrap your mind around the Damage spread in HERO. The difference between 3DC (1D6k) and 9DC (3D6k) is huge. It is theorized that the original designers of HERO designed the concept of Damage Classes around a doubling of Energy. Going by this equation, that means the difference between 3DC and 9DC is 6 doublings, or X64 the level of energy being delivered to the target. If we place 400 Joules of energy (300ft/lbs a bit less than the energy of a Glock 17 9mm) at 3 Damage Classes, that means 9 Damage Classes fall around 25000 Joules of energy (the .50 BMG depending on the round employed could produce up to 20,000 joules of energy, which is in line with 9 Damage Classes) see the difference?

 

You must also look at the "average damage" of the weapons in question and check the lethality level when compared to a normal unagmented human being (Body 8 to 10). For the 9mm, the average damage is 3.5 Body. Not particularly lethal or life threatening unless one is shot in the Head or Vitals (which doubles the 3.5 to 7 Body, which produces an Impairing wound on a character of up to 14 Body!). For the 3D6 .50 sniper rifle, the average damage is 10.5, which is near-lethal to lethal on a normal hit location, non-lethal but Impairing on a limb hit (1/2 Body damage) or instantly lethal on a Head or Vitals location result, which is pretty much what happens when one is hit by a high powered sniper rifle round of that magnitude. It all adds up quite nicely as long as one is playing with realistic Body characteristic levels (15 Body or less) and armor effectiveness is kept under control.

 

2) Black powder weaponry doing more damage than anti-vehicular weapons, because they've got a bigger caliber, i.e. bullet size beating all other technological implications.

 

I can agree with your assessment to a degree. Bullet size, while important, should not be the baseline by which the weapons damage is calculated. That should be Kinetic Energy, then further modified by the round type (i.e. HOW the energy is delivered to the target and in what manner). In addition to this, black powder weapons usually fire ball-type amunition, which is not built with armor penetration in mind. Thus such ammunition should be built with the Reduced Penetration limitation, making it very difficult for ball-type ammo to damage hard/armored targets. Unarmored fleshies are another matter entirely and the grievous nature of the wounds caused by black powder weapons is well-known and thus slightly higher damage outputs than for similarly energetic bullet weapons isn't unreasonable, as long as its not a large difference in damage.

 

So "realistic" as in "d6 in proportion to actual output". Just some basic math, not advanced medicine

 

The math is doable, you just have to figure out where HERO mechanics fit into the equation first. Everything else falls into place after that.

[mhd]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

You totally forget the advantages in your calculation

 

Why would I need to include autofire? To make things even worse? I would expect a single bullet from a M82A1 to be more damaging than one fired from a Brown Bess, not the opposite.

 

Edit: The original remark was more about the spread of the die than calibers, so in hindsight this reply might seem a bit out of place. Still, autofire is somewhat of a non-issue, as I'm not "complaining" about "statistical damage per second", but of simple, per-bulllet damage.

 

Okay' date=' now I am nto certain what valeus you have. The M72A3 LAW Rocket has 6.5d6, with Area Of Effect (explosion), Armor Piercing (+1/4) and Increased Stun (+1/4). It can easily make a TPK with one attack.[/quote']

 

Forgive me my abuse of military terminology. I was using caliber .50 weaponry as an example in some posts, and so was referencing the Barrett anti-materiel rifle, compared to muskets or Desert Eagles.

[Ragitsu]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

Forgive me my abuse of military terminology. I was using caliber .50 weaponry as an example in some posts' date=' and so was referencing the Barrett anti-[i']materiel[/i] rifle, compared to muskets or Desert Eagles.

 

6dx2 pi+ still beats 4d pi++ in terms of range, and damage/penetration.

[Christopher]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

Why would I need to include autofire? To make things even worse? I would expect a single bullet from a M82A1 to be more damaging than one fired from a Brown Bess' date=' not the opposite.[/quote']

Why include it? Because it seriously affects how you take damage. Unless the target has really unlikely armor every hit will increase the damage by a factor of 1. 4 hits? 4 tiems the damage.

Also I don't really understand wich Weapons on the list in 6E2 you are talking about when using Military slang.

 

Forgive me my abuse of military terminology. I was using caliber .50 weaponry as an example in some posts' date=' and so was referencing the Barrett anti-[i']materiel[/i] rifle, compared to muskets or Desert Eagles.

What are all the Advantages and Limitations on those builts? What about Range Modifiers and OCV Modifiers?

[Gnaskar]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

One way to customise how firearms cause damage is to create a more complicated bullet' date=' or rather a more complicated build for a bullet: you might have a 1/2dd RKA as the basic effect and additional DCs of damage depending on how well you hit: say +1/2 d6 if you make your roll to hit by 2, another +1/2d6 if you make it by 4. That would mean a gun would routinely do 2d6 in the hands of an expert under good conditions, but would tend to do less damage (simulating hits that are not 'centre of mass' or some such) in the hands of a less experienced gunman (they shoot a bit wider) or under less than ideal conditions (even the expert is going to struggle to be exactly on target at 150 metres with a handgun), but still allowing for a lucky shot to be really dangerous under any conditions and in the hands of a novice.[/quote']

 

I use this system for lasers in my sci-fi campaign, and it works fairly well most of the time. A glancing hit does basically nothing to a armor wearing target, though my players generally manage to make it by two or three. It only really breaks down when someone rolls 3 or 4 on the dice and ends up doing 5d6 damage (twice they've managed to pull this off with a head-shot [once on a nameless mook, and once on a reoccurring villain on her first appearance])

[mhd]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

Why include it? Because it seriously affects how you take damage. Unless the target has really unlikely armor every hit will increase the damage by a factor of 1. 4 hits? 4 tiems the damage.

 

A modern machine gun is more accurate, spews out more bullets *and* hits with a higher force with each single impact than a Napoleonic musket, sure, no problem. I have no issue with the accuracy or the rate of fire. My issue, for the sake of this thread, is bullet oomph.

[Christopher]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

A modern machine gun is more accurate' date=' spews out more bullets *and* hits with a higher force with each single impact than a Napoleonic musket, sure, no problem. I have no issue with the accuracy or the rate of fire. My issue, for the sake of this thread, is bullet oomph.[/quote']

Even if we throw out the Autofire the HMG still does 3d6, Increased Stun for a total of 11 DC with +1 OCV and +4 Range Skill Levels.

But if you cut out the autofire, you have to increase the Raw power to get to the same DC again*.

3d6, Increased Stun is not nearly equal to 3d6, Increased Stun, Autofire 10.

5d6+1, Increased Stun however is equal to 3d6, Increased Stun, Autofire 10.

 

*It's the same as writing up a 12 DC Blast with Armor Piercing next to a 12 DC Blast without advantages, a 12 DC Blast with penentrating or a 12 DC Area of Effect (+1/2) as different Slots for the Same Multipower.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

2) Black powder weaponry doing more damage than anti-vehicular weapons' date=' because they've got a bigger caliber, i.e. bullet size beating all other technological implications.[/quote']

 

How would you adjust the published values? Halving the damage (reflecting the inferior powder of the period) would bring the damage in line with modern firearms.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

let's see:

HE: High Raw Damage with Explosion Area of Effect. Propably reduced penetration (don't even try agaisn armored vehicles).

 

I can agree with this.

HEAT: No area of effect. Everything towards penetrating the armor (higehr base Damage. More Armoir Piercing)

 

I generally make HEAT rounds APx2 with a somewhat higher damage base.

HEDP: Mix between HE and HEAT. Propably the book example

 

Like HE, its an attack with the explosion advantage. Unlike HE, it does not apply Reduced Penetration to the damage, so it has a higher chance of penetrating armor.

HESH: Sounds like a form of indirect to me (damage the Humans on the inside, not the tank), exactly like the APDS

 

It is not indirect. Penetrating is exactly the correct advantage to use here. In fact, I use PENx2 to represent the fact that typical hardened armor is no protection from this attack. Only the heaviest of Tanks will protect one from this (double hardened armor, which is rare in my games)

 

AP: like HEAT, but Shells isntead of LAW

 

Not really like HEAT. The damage is purely kinetic (PD) vs the HEAT rounds explosive/energy damage (ED). This is your typical hardened round to penetrate basic armor. Possesses one level of Armor Piercing at normal damage levels for the cannon.

APCR: Waht could that mean? Better agaisnt older armors? Or jsut the cheaper variant of AP?

 

The precursor to APDS sort of. I would rate this as an AP/PEN at the cannon's normal damage level. This is so even if the damage roll is somewhat low, at least some damage will penetrate the armor.

API: Depends heavily on how the Fuel Tanks are build. Could be Called Shot Skill Lvl vs. Fuel Tanks/Engine or jsut have the Right SFX to use a vulnerabiltiy. Or Penetrating, only to disable a certain part of the vehicle.

This should be Armor Piercing advantage at the cannon's normal damage level. This round also includes the "Heat" SFX so any effects that a Heat/Fire SFX can have will activate, such as igniting fuel or ammo for internal damage if the GM is using that level of detail.

APDS: As my brother explained it to me I would say Indirect with small area of effect, to kill the Crew (and not the vehicle).

 

Not really indirect. The sabot just delivers near the same energy levels (slightly lesser because of the drop in weight after the outer shell is discarded) to a much smaller point on the target armor. Thus I usually apply APx2 to APDS rounds.

APFSDS: Same with Range Skill Levels

 

Essentially, yes. Fin Stabilization of the round just makes them more accurate at longer ranges.

APCFSDSDU: Less limit on the armor (more Indirect to coutner the counteracts indirect?) it can peentrate than any of the previous.

 

The main point of APFSDSDU rounds is the DU part....the fact that the core is made of ultra-dense Depleted Uranium giving the round a higher round mass and thus more Kinetic Energy for deeper penetration. Although the Tungsten penetrators of APDS rounds are technically as dense as DU, Depleted Uranium has special properties that help it penetrate armor deeper. As it impacts with hard armor at high velocities, the DU core remains sharp even during fragmentation which allows for a deeper penetration. In addition to this, DU rounds have natural Incindiary effects, giving them the same secondary effects as API rounds! I rate APFSDSDU rounds as APx2/PEN with an enhanced Range Penalty Modifier for the Fin Stabilization (at least +4 Rmod)

 

HEI: Some sort of Fire based, Continous/Uncotnrolled/Continous Charges Area of Effect. Maybe Sticky as well?

 

Yes but without the sticky.

 

WP: As HEO, but harder to extinguish. Depends on how the Flames are built

 

Here's your Sticky!

 

Most of this stuff is just different generations of the same idea. Propably deep in the "Advantage, Counter Advantage, more Advantage" armsrace.

 

Essentially, but their mechanical difference shouldn't be underestimated. HEAT rounds are very very different from AP rounds. HEAT rounds are essentially pure energy (the energy of an explosion) that has all of its force applied to one area of armor instead of allowed to expand and quickly dissipate. AP rounds are pure kinetic energy. Squash Heads aren't designed to penetrate, their damage is translational (sends a shockwave through the armor rather than trying to puncture it) thus the use of Penetrating vs Armor Piercing. Discarding Sabot weapons are excellent for the fact that they end up with a higher muzzle velocity and lose less velocity over range and thus have a much higher KE when they impact their target which translates to better penetration, and their density and smaller cross section translates to deeper penetration, thus applying APx2 to the attack. In a modern campaign featuring armored vehicles and such weaponry, there would be very little that could withstand such an attack. Only the heaviest armored Tanks would have Double Hardened armor, and then only on the Front.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

Essentially, but their mechanical difference shouldn't be underestimated. HEAT rounds are very very different from AP rounds. HEAT rounds are essentially pure energy (the energy of an explosion) that has all of its force applied to one area of armor instead of allowed to expand and quickly dissipate. AP rounds are pure kinetic energy. Squash Heads aren't designed to penetrate, their damage is translational (sends a shockwave through the armor rather than trying to puncture it) thus the use of Penetrating vs Armor Piercing. Discarding Sabot weapons are excellent for the fact that they end up with a higher muzzle velocity and lose less velocity over range and thus have a much higher KE when they impact their target which translates to better penetration, and their density and smaller cross section translates to deeper penetration, thus applying APx2 to the attack. In a modern campaign featuring armored vehicles and such weaponry, there would be very little that could withstand such an attack. Only the heaviest armored Tanks would have Double Hardened armor, and then only on the Front.

 

Indeed. Good summary. I might quibble on a couple of points, but it's mostly a style thing...

There are a few places I'd use Semi AP, like the early Rod penetrators, Hardened doesn't stop Penetrating anymore, and in this context probably shouldn't. HESH munitions were largely abandoned with the adoption of spall guards eliminating most of their lethal effect, and modern composites are designed to prevent a propagating wave from causing spallation as well, so Impermeable shouldn't be all that uncommon.

Steve's technique of dropping on a continuous uncontrolled 1 pip RKA to represent incendiary effects is kinda clunky, but works.

 

Semi AP and Piercing are both GREAT for adding additional diversification to weapon effects. Unfortunately for realism, HERO doesn't really have much of a system for modeling the kind of secondary damage effects that most heavy weapons are built to take advantage of, unless you get super detailed on your write ups. One of our long gone posters, (FOX something or another) totally reworked modern combat writeups to reflect these sorts of things, but I don't think he still has it up.

[mhd]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

Even if we throw out the Autofire the HMG still does 3d6' date=' Increased Stun for a total of 11 DC with +1 OCV and +4 Range Skill Levels.[/quote']

 

Honestly, what are we arguing about here? Sure, given all the respective parameters for damage in the HERO system, there's a wide variety of in-system damage levels. And this isn't even including all the potential variety you could introduce with sundry ammo.

 

But disregarding all the various and plentiful additional parameters, disregarding likelihood of hitting something at an imaginary range and skill of the shooter, a singular bullet does a particular amount of damage to e.g. a lump of rock. This is what I'd like to talk about. No autofire, no armor piercing, no accuracy, no range modifiers…

 

And, once again, my initial issues with the damage column where the relatively low spread and the caliber issues. I wouldn't want to touch the accuracy (OCV/range) stats of all the weaponry involved with a ten foot pole…

 

How would you adjust the published values?

 

That's what I'm asking about. It seems "Guns, Guns, Guns" has some useful information regarding that, so I'll probably head down that route. I'm alright with a rather simplistic approximation, e.g. just going by muzzle velocity. But to judge that, I'd need information about the efficiency of the powder, the action etc.

Stuff I wouldn't really want to do on my own in a real-word, scientific manner. I'm alright with game terms someone came up with. Like I've mentioned above, I don't even want to go too deep in the wounding aspect, as this probably entails a horrible litany of ballistic gel, pig carcasses and borderline autistic people arguing about "tumbling" and "wound paths"…

[megaplayboy]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

Well, here's the killing attack damage progression, all the way up to 10DC:

1 pip

1/2d6

1d6-1

1d6

1d6+1

1.5 d6

2d6-1

2d6

2d6+1

2.5d6

3d6-1

3d6

3d6+1

That's 13 gradations. Goes from .17 caliber pistol ammo("varmint rounds") all the way up to 14.5mm machine gun/AT rifle rounds. A point difference in body damage can mean the difference between non-impairing and impairing, between non-disabling and disabling, between not bleeding and bleeding, and between barely alive and mostly dead. And that's without factoring in stun multipliers and other advantages/limitations on the rounds.

[Christopher]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

But disregarding all the various and plentiful additional parameters' date=' disregarding likelihood of hitting something at an imaginary range and skill of the shooter, a singular bullet does a particular amount of damage to e.g. a lump of rock. This is what I'd like to talk about. No autofire, no armor piercing, no accuracy, no range modifiers…[/quote']

But you can't just ignore the Advantages when talking about the damage Level. They are integral part of how much "Force" the Bullet has. The Amount of dice is not a guideline anytime if you ignore the advantages.

 

Let's say you ahve a Gun whose Bullet Velocity leads us to give it 12 DC.

When you load it with normal Ammunition it will deal 4d6 Killing Damage

When you load it with Armor Piercing Ammunition it will deal 3d6, Armor Piercing

When you load it with some ammunition best built with Penetrating it deals 2.5d6, Penetrating

If you put a "Fastfire Mod" on it that gives it AF 3 it suddenly deals 2.5d6, AF3*.

 

I none of these cases the actual Bullet speed or impact force decreases by any amount. We consider the Autofire bullet just as fast as the normal Ammunition Bullet. It's just that hero system balance demands that they are built with less dice, but they also affect defenses differently (wich compensates for thier lesser dice force).

 

*To correctly model a M16 I would propably built it as Multipwoer with Charges and the Following Slots:

Single Shot: Normal Bullet damage, maybe extra OCV/Range Skill Level in the same slot (Single fire is more precise, right?)

Burst: Normal Bullet Damage, Autofire 3 or maybe somewhat higher bullet damage (just roll all three bullets into one damage roll) and only somewhat less bonus to accuracy. (Not as precise as single fire, but still better than 10 shoots per action).

5 Shoot Autofire: Whatever you took as Damage for Burst take it with (more) Autofire and no bonus to accuracy.

 

I would aim to make each slot about equal in AP. What the one slot misses on Attack Power cost, it has at accuracy.

If you choose the option to do Burst a Single Higher Roll, apply "Extra Charges" to the slot to make certain that three bullets leave the magazine even if you just roll damage once.

If you took the Single Brust Roll, just take that Damage and apply AF 3 and extra Charges (to get the real expense to 5 bullets).

 

Jsut because it looks like Autofire and is called Autofire, does not means in needs the Autofire Hero Rules Construct.

[Vondy]

Re: "Realistic" gun damage

 

If you use the optional damage rules like hit locations, bleeding, and disabling firearms damage becomes more "grizzly" and somewhat more "realistic." I find the default rules work well for cinematic and superhero games, whereas the options work better for "grittier" heroic games.