Batman and Iron Man 6th with possibly a VPP ~400 points

Most established Characters have more points than you can count. With all the gadgets and abilities he showed once it is easy to built a batman on 1000 points and still have stuff to write left.

One big thing is to differentiate between stuff he showed once or twice in one interpretation and stuff he showed repeatedly.

The former is most of just a Power Skill Roll, a little bit of Preparation or just using the environment.

When you keep that in mind and have a somewhat lenient GM, you don't need a VPP.

Also, what VPP's grant in flexibility they do cost in raw power.

Most GM's are carefull about VPP's. Not because of the Combat uses - those are balanced by the difficulty to change slots - but because of the noncombat uses. So you might want to define what your VPP can't do rather than what it can do*.

*again, keep "once vs. regulary" in mind.

Martin2 · May 22, 2012

Re: Batman and Iron Man 6th with possibly a VPP ~400 points

Thanks to QM and the people who contributed to the builds and forums.

I am basically borrowing as much as possible to get me ready for a character rewrite to include a gadget pool.

I would want to give him a MP as it will give him a lot for his investment.

I dont want to give him a cosmic VPP with infinite items in it as I think this is not suitable for a gadget VPP.

I may give him a VPP instant change with say can only pick from 6 slots at a time and he has to go back to base (which is easy most of the time as he is a teleporter).

Thanks again

Martin

Cassandra · May 22, 2012

Re: Batman and Iron Man 6th with possibly a VPP ~400 points

I just built Batman at 250 Points, 5th Edition Rules, at Cassandra's Corner Thread.
The use of Multiform solved a lot of problems.

I gave Bruce Wayne a 60 Point Multiform which gives him 4 250 Point Characters (Batman, Batmobile, Batplane, and Batboat).

I used the same characteristics for each version. The vehicles all had an elemental control to simulate the vehicle, Growth, EB (Missiles), and the appopriate movement powers (Running, Flight, and Swimming), then linked Armor, Life Support, and Enhanced Senses to the Growth.

For Batman I gave him a Cosmis VPP 10 Points, OIF (-1) costing 20 Points, plus a multipower with some standard weapons. He also has Armor and ES: Nightvision.

I have created thirty 10 Point examples for the VPP, but the list is pretty much endless, simulating Batman's ability to always plan ahead.

Hyper-Man · May 22, 2012

Re: Batman and Iron Man 6th with possibly a VPP ~400 points

I forgot I had this lying around and had never posted it to my JLA350 thread so you get it first.

The VPP is designed to work exactly like a Multipower with ~ 12 slots of 30 active points each. The only difference is that the individual slots can be swapped out at the Batcave.

Martin2 · May 23, 2012

Re: Batman and Iron Man 6th with possibly a VPP ~400 points

I forgot I had this lying around and had never posted it to my JLA350 thread so you get it first.

The VPP is designed to work exactly like a Multipower with ~ 12 slots of 30 active points each. The only difference is that the individual slots can be swapped out at the Batcave.

Thanks this is 6th and shows everything I want. You say 12 slots but only have 5 as an example in the printout which will be a bit confusing for my player.

I will use something like this and steal examples from the other threads. He may want different kinds.

It is also a build by someone other then myself so he may be happier as I can show the code versus killing which he said Batman did not have. But he does not read many comics. Neither did I (I read a lot a long time ago) until I found out our local library has a section of comics novels. The problem now is I have read all the Marvel ones and am just finishing the DC ones and then I have other minor comics and then I have run out.

Hyper-Man · May 23, 2012

Re: Batman and Iron Man 6th with possibly a VPP ~400 points

Thanks this is 6th and shows everything I want. You say 12 slots but only have 5 as an example in the printout which will be a bit confusing for my player.

I will use something like this and steal examples from the other threads. He may want different kinds.

It is also a build by someone other then myself so he may be happier as I can show the code versus killing which he said Batman did not have. But he does not read many comics. Neither did I (I read a lot a long time ago) until I found out our local library has a section of comics novels. The problem now is I have read all the Marvel ones and am just finishing the DC ones and then I have other minor comics and then I have run out.

That's the beauty of the VPP-behaving-as-a-multipower "container". The player can pre-build as many slots as they want and just choose which 10-15 'utility items' the character takes with him from the 'batcave' when he goes on patrol. The HDC file shows the following in the "Notes:" section of the VPP build: "This is just a small sampling of what is typically carried." Unfortunately, the PDF output cuts out the "Notes:" section in its output. (It's one of the few very very minor complaints I have about that fan-built feature).

Hyper-Man · May 23, 2012

Re: Batman and Iron Man 6th with possibly a VPP ~400 points

A few differences worth noting between my 6e and 5e VPP builds of Batman's Utility Belt.

In 6e:

The Control Cost size is not linked to the size of the Pool base.

The Control Cost (30) determines the maximum Active Points of any individual slot

The Pool base (15) determines the maximum Real Points that can be active simultaneously.

(My 6e version can only use one 30 Active Point slot with a Real cost of 15 points at any one time).

In 5e:

The Control Cost is always half the Pool (base) cost.

The Pool base determines both the Active & Real point limits.

(My 5e version can use 2 or more different 30 Active Point slots simultaneously as long at their combined Real costs add up to no more than 30 points).

This is the primary reason the 5e version of the Utility Belt is more expensive than the 6e version. One is effectively a 1-handed focus and the other is effectively 2-handed. The 6e version could be upgraded but it would cost more points.

Hyper-Man · May 23, 2012

Re: Batman and Iron Man 6th with possibly a VPP ~400 points

re: Batman's CVK

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman

Powers, abilities, and resources

Batman has no inherent superhuman powers. To compensate for this he relies on "his own scientific knowledge, detective skills, and athletic prowess."[25] In the stories Batman is regarded as one of the world's greatest detectives; if not the world's greatest crime solver.[116] In Grant Morrison's first storyline in JLA, Superman describes Batman as "the most dangerous man on Earth," able to defeat a team of superpowered aliens by himself in order to rescue his imprisoned teammates. He has spent a significant portion of his life traveling the world and acquiring the skills needed to aid in his crusade against crime. His knowledge and expertise in almost every discipline known to man is nearly unparalleled by any other character in the DC universe.[117] He is also a master of disguise, often gathering information under the identity of Matches Malone, a notorious gangster. Additionally, the Batman has been repeatedly described as one of the greatest martial artists in the DC Universe, his skills in hand-to-hand combat are said to rival such notable martial artists as Lady Shiva, Bronze Tiger, and Richard Dragon. His batsuit also aids in his combat against enemies, having the properties of both Kevlar and Nomex. It protects him from gunfire and other significant impacts. However, Batman's most defining characteristic is his strong commitment to justice and his unwillingness to take life, regardless of the situation with which he is faced. This unyielding moral aptitude has earned him the respect of several heroes in the DC Universe, most notably that of Superman and Wonder Woman.

Christopher · May 23, 2012

Re: Batman and Iron Man 6th with possibly a VPP ~400 points

I forgot I had this lying around and had never posted it to my JLA350 thread so you get it first.

The VPP is designed to work exactly like a Multipower with ~ 12 slots of 30 active points each. The only difference is that the individual slots can be swapped out at the Batcave.

I am not a big fan of this built.

I think: If you want a half a dozen Gadgets for 15 Real points each you should pay 120 real Cost the gadgets are worth. If I can't use some of them togehter, I can apply Lockout and other Limitations.

When you would built one complete selection of 12 Slots as fixed slot multipower you would spend around 30 (Reserve)+12 (each slot) for 42 Character Points.

With this built you have that same Multipower. And then a dozen others on top of it. That flexibility should cost more, not much less.

If fogot the OIF and Restrainable Limitation with the Multipower. With that it would only cost 20 (30 Reserve with -1/2 Limitations), so it would cost 32 Character points. That is less than the VPP, but only 1 Point. For increased Utility.

Martin2 · May 23, 2012

Re: Batman and Iron Man 6th with possibly a VPP ~400 points

I am not a big fan of this built.
I think: If you want a half a dozen Gadgets for 15 Real points each you should pay 120 real Cost the gadgets are worth. If I can't use some of them togehter, I can apply Lockout and other Limitations.

When you would built one complete selection of 12 Slots as fixed slot multipower you would spend around 30 (Reserve)+12 (each slot) for 42 Character Points.

With this built you have that same Multipower. And then a dozen others on top of it. That flexibility should cost more, not much less.

If fogot the OIF and Restrainable Limitation with the Multipower. With that it would only cost 20 (30 Reserve with -1/2 Limitations), so it would cost 32 Character points. That is less than the VPP, but only 1 Point. For increased Utility.

True it is the problem I have as well. How much should a gadget pool really cost?

The one in this build is cheap and is effectively a cosmic with limited slots to simulate something they can change at base.

Or a Multipower with a number of slots but then make them able to change the slots back at base (+1/4 / + 1/2???).

Or something else?

It has to simulate a room full of gadgets which can change with a little time (out of combat).

bigbywolfe · May 23, 2012

Re: Batman and Iron Man 6th with possibly a VPP ~400 points

I am not a big fan of this built.
I think: If you want a half a dozen Gadgets for 15 Real points each you should pay 120 real Cost the gadgets are worth. If I can't use some of them togehter, I can apply Lockout and other Limitations.

When you would built one complete selection of 12 Slots as fixed slot multipower you would spend around 30 (Reserve)+12 (each slot) for 42 Character Points.

With this built you have that same Multipower. And then a dozen others on top of it. That flexibility should cost more, not much less.

If fogot the OIF and Restrainable Limitation with the Multipower. With that it would only cost 20 (30 Reserve with -1/2 Limitations), so it would cost 32 Character points. That is less than the VPP, but only 1 Point. For increased Utility.

There is always a break-point where a VPP will cost less than MP for the number of slots available. In fact, some veteran characters will eventually sell back their MPs and buy a VPP when they his that point. Not sure what your problem with that is, unless you have an issue with VPPs in general.

Also, if I take the statement I bolded from your post literally, that would disallow MPs as well, which you yourself suggest using in the very next sentence...

TheQuestionMan · May 23, 2012

Re: Batman and Iron Man 6th with possibly a VPP ~400 points

"Batman is a little fuzzy about knee caps" - Misquoting Shepard Book.

No offense to the Big G.

QM

Martin2 · May 23, 2012

Re: Batman and Iron Man 6th with possibly a VPP ~400 points

I have just number crunched 30 active MP with 12 slots with a OIF, restrainable and a +1/2 to simulate a change at base advantage (my own invention not in the rules) and the numbers come up similar for this or the Batman VPP method.

So no real difference either way and I will probably still be thinking of how to do it right before he arrives tomorrow.

Hyper-Man · May 24, 2012

Re: Batman and Iron Man 6th with possibly a VPP ~400 points

I've seen Steve Long's response in the rules forum and completely disagree with it (and I'm not alone in this opinion).

For anyone with an open mind who is interested, here are 2 old threads dealing with the exact issues raised by Christopher which explain all the reasoning behind the Base-Swappable-Gadgets/VPP-functions-like-Multipower concept at length:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/72586-VPP-based-MP-help-with-limitation?highlight=utility%20belt

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/87943-Help-with-a-VPP/page2?highlight=utility+belt

TheQuestionMan · May 24, 2012

Re: Batman and Iron Man 6th with possibly a VPP ~400 points

Variable Power Pool with Focus Limitation

The Ultimate Utility Belt.

QM

Martin2 · May 24, 2012

Re: Batman and Iron Man 6th with possibly a VPP ~400 points

Why do I (or infact my players) pick the most difficult rules builds possible.

A cosmic VPP but with limitations of a number of slots is "legal" if you give him infact infinite slots but goes against the SFX. But "illegal" if you limit the slots as it is now mimics a MP!

And this is thrown at me 2 hours before the game starts and this player want a character rewrite to this sort of build!

Do I go with the game illegal for game simplicity or try and make the MP mimic a VPP which would also be illegal as it will be a MP mimicing a VPP.

Why me!!!!

Christopher · May 24, 2012

Re: Batman and Iron Man 6th with possibly a VPP ~400 points

Why do I (or infact my players) pick the most difficult rules builds possible.

A cosmic VPP but with limitations of a number of slots is "legal" if you give him infact infinite slots but goes against the SFX. But "illegal" if you limit the slots as it is now mimics a MP!

And this is thrown at me 2 hours before the game starts and this player want a character rewrite to this sort of build!

Do I go with the game illegal for game simplicity or try and make the MP mimic a VPP which would also be illegal as it will be a MP mimicing a VPP.

Why me!!!!

My best guess would be that Steve Long misunderstood something. Even I am not that certain it would be a problem anymore:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/89794-VPP-discusion?p=2333389#post2333389

But it is rather difficulty to value the limitation. And of course you can't apply Focus to any of the gadgets, as loosing a Power with Focus bought in a VPP with Focus means you loose those Pool points permanently (well, at least until you get back home and can restock).

Ninja-Bear · May 25, 2012

Re: Batman and Iron Man 6th with possibly a VPP ~400 points

I have just number crunched 30 active MP with 12 slots with a OIF, restrainable and a +1/2 to simulate a change at base advantage (my own invention not in the rules) and the numbers come up similar for this or the Batman VPP method.

So no real difference either way and I will probably still be thinking of how to do it right before he arrives tomorrow.

I have a question, why OIF and restrainable? Off the cuff I woudn't allow both of those limitations together. But I'm curious as to the reasoning. And I did use a vpp (as a ninja gadget pool) with the change at base limitation and it worked fine.

Ninja-Bear · May 25, 2012

Re: Batman and Iron Man 6th with possibly a VPP ~400 points

I did some checking, and what bothers me about oif and restrainable toghter is that you get the savings of OAF but not all the restrictions of OAF. Some I would either a) give it as restrainable at -1/4 or a custom limitation affected by grabs and entangles at -1/4

Cassandra · May 26, 2012

Re: Batman and Iron Man 6th with possibly a VPP ~400 points

I just put up a 5th Edition 250 Point version of Iron Man at Cassandra's Corner. It's based on the Movie.

I didn't use multiform on this one so it's pretty basic but I think it covers all bases.

Cassandra · May 29, 2012

Re: Batman and Iron Man 6th with possibly a VPP ~400 points

Second version of Iron Man up at Cassandra's Corner thread, using Tony Stark with Multiform to transform into Iron Man.

Batman and Iron Man 6th with possibly a VPP ~400 points

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