How many of you use END outside of magic? and other questions...

[Blorn]

I met a few people at Origins this last weekend that said they don't mess with Endurance except as a way of keeping spell slingers from becoming too powerful.

(1) How many of you use Endurance for your non-spell casters? (How do you handle Endurance in general?)

(2) I'm thinking of healing spells working once per day per wound... but I'm worried that this would mean more paperwork on the players side... they have to keep track of BODY, STUN, and possibly END, with this rule, they'd have to keep track of wounds as well. Would this be too much tracking? I have experienced gamers, but this will be their first time with the Hero System, I don't want to scare them off...

(3) If I use #2 above, would a stat tracking sheet (with a generic figure in the middle of the page, something looking like the Hero Symbol) be useful? I'm thinking of designing something like the one found here at Fitz's site http://fitz.jsr.com/roleplay/hero/hitlocs.pdf... only with areas to keep track of wounds to each body part...

(4) In HD, how do you have it calculate the Turakian Age divide by 3 rule for spells? (I'm not sure I really like this spell system, but I'd like to keep it relatively simple and use some of the spells in the Griomore... I might use a Multipower, however to reduce the cost, but I'm worried about varying Actual Points as well as the flexibility of non-MP spells...)

(5) Long Term Endurance, how do you use it? I got how it works, but it seems a little clunky... you have to keep track of how much END used per Turn, subtract REC, and then if you get into combat before having a significant rest, your actual END is reduced by the difference (Do I have that right?) Is it easier in play than it sounds in reading it? (I know it doesn't sound too complicated, but it's just one more thing to keep track of...)

 

Ok, that's it for now. I'm getting ready for a Fantasy Hero campaign in the Turakian Age setting (which we will probably be starting within the next week or so), and I wanted to iron out some final details.

 

Thanks in advance!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How many of you use END outside of magic? and other questions...

 

re: (1)

 

If END use is ignored a major consequence is the loss of the Pushing rules.

To avoid that, the general rule I try to follow for non-spell casters is that they should have a REC and END that would allow them to use their standard attack at least once/Phase for a minute (possibly even longer).

[Markdoc]

Re: How many of you use END outside of magic? and other questions...

 

re: (1)

 

If END use is ignored a major consequence is the loss of the Pushing rules.

To avoid that, the general rule I try to follow for non-spell casters is that they should have a REC and END that would allow them to use their standard attack at least once/Phase for a minute (possibly even longer).

 

Not at all: it merely means they need amending

 

In my last FH campaign I dropped END for general use, due to player complaints about "too much book-keeping" ... and I could kind of see their point. This led to the following house rules:

1. Normal use of powers does not cost END. However, this is not equivalent to "Reduced END", which may still be purchased.

2. Players may build powers that cost end and take the limitation "Costs END" to reflect unusually tiring powers.

3. Pushing is still possible, but pushed powers use Long Term Endurance.

4. Although normal activity does not usually use END, prolonged activity will use Long Term Endurance as usual.

 

Basically what this means is that in most cases, the GM and players can ignore END. However sustained activity will still tire characters out (When needed, I simply use the LTE rules from the book, pretty much as written). This is why, despite the changes, some players still bought "Reduced END" for a few powers: it gave them essentially the ability to use a power tirelessly. Reduced END was still also required for continuous powers, otherwise they would start to use burn LTE after a while. This approach meant that no further changes needed to be made to pricing structures for powers.

 

This set up worked so well, that I think I will use it in all future heroic-level games.

 

With regard to the OP's original post:

 

In the same FH game, magic use burned LTE, which meant that most mages ran out of steam after one or two good fights or similar bursts of activity, and would need to rest up for a few hours to a day to become effective again. That worked pretty well.

 

Tracking individual wounds? We tried it. Once. Never again. Way too much book keeping

 

Can't comment on the Turakian age system, as I hated it on sight and have never used it. That was the reason that the Turakian age stuff is the only fantasy-related material from Hero games, I never bought.

 

LTE isn't a problem, in most cases, because (with the exception of special cases like the magic rules or pushing house rules above) you don't normally bother. It's for things like forced marches, the PCs trying to carry away a giant statue, or blasting their way through thick stone walls with an energy blast, etc. It's really only for cases where PCs are going to be using powers over prolonged periods.

 

cheers, Mark

[mayapuppies]

Re: How many of you use END outside of magic? and other questions...

 

You can't simulate the Turakian magic system in HD

[Christopher]

Re: How many of you use END outside of magic? and other questions...

 

1. I can only tell what the book says for heroic: STR costs 1 END/5 STR (twice as much as Superheroic games), on the other hand characters get a lot Endurance Free Damage From their Weapons.

Plus the 1 END for Standard Maneuvers.

 

2. There are rules for it. They are of course extra bookkeeping.

Also, I wonder how the normal recovery works. To be "realistic" REC would have to be distributed equally among all wounds (in relation to the amount of STUN they have). Simpler might be simply a highest STUN amount is recovered first.

 

5. I consider using LTE for Bleach/Dragonball themed Scenario (on a low Powered Superheroic level)

Pushing will additionally cost LTE.

Also Players can take a special form of "Cost Endurance", called "Costs LTE". (this is for "last ditch effort" attacks, not fully mastered techniques or to limit things like healing).

So in addition to the normal cost, they also tire you out on long term. I think that simulates the Anime Style tiring very well.

A power cannot cost more LTE than normal Endurance.

 

 

LTE is very interesting for things like big battles. You may only play 1-2 Turns of combat (in wich the heroes propably take no damage), then extrapolate the LTE cost over fighting for 5-30 Minutes.

A Zombie/Robot horde might not have any chance to beat the heroes in combat, but sheer mass might mean it can "wear down" the heroes.

[Orion]

Re: How many of you use END outside of magic? and other questions...

 

I used a system similar to MarcDoc when I did FH. By design, I didn't want players to worry about END for melee combat. So unless the person was a out-of-shape- old guy (like myself), they could ignore it. I wanted the feel of extended combats, and the assumption was that everyone was in good physical condition, so ignoring END was the easiest way to go. And since all the players were new to the Hero system, making it simpler was a plus. LTE wasn't actually tracked, I just played it by ear and told them when they were getting extra tired.

 

I wouldn't use the proposed healing rules right away. Tell them you'd like to move to that system at some point after they learn the rules, but that you'll ignore it for the moment. For now, just limit them to 1 heal/day for each big hit they took. For an advanced group, I would use something like this, as I would want to impose wounds and their effects.

[tancred]

Re: How many of you use END outside of magic? and other questions...

 

You can't simulate the Turakian magic system in HD

 

Actually you can, but it takes some work.

You have to use the Custom Multiplier button and put in 0.33333 to get it to divide the Real Cost by 3 as Turakian Age says.

 

I've written up a number of the colleges for Turakian Age; my one mage player used them the last time I ran Fantasy Hero.

[Blorn]

Re: How many of you use END outside of magic? and other questions...

 

Actually you can, but it takes some work.

You have to use the Custom Multiplier button and put in 0.33333 to get it to divide the Real Cost by 3 as Turakian Age says.

 

I've written up a number of the colleges for Turakian Age; my one mage player used them the last time I ran Fantasy Hero.

 

Thanks, I'll give this a try... I've been putting in a disadvantage that will calculate the correct amount of points. It has to be different for each spell. I just have to adjust the -disadvantage until it gives the proper amount. I then title it "Turakian Age Multiplier". I actually think I like other magic systems, but I wanted to go with ease at first for the players. If the game takes off, I may switch over to a better magic system... of course, if everything goes well, we may just keep the Turakian Age system.

 

END... my personal preferences as to roleplaying games are a cross between High Fantasy and gritty realism. I like it when players have to worry about someone with a sharp weapon, be they a Huge Barbarian with a two-handed sword or a little goblin with a dagger... A dagger to the brain is just as deadly as a battle axe to the neck. I also like the idea that a warrior fighting all day will eventually tire... swinging a sword around takes a lot of energy...

 

But, does my wish for a little realism make it harder for new players to learn? My thinking is that if I teach it up front, it will become the norm. If I try to add it in later, they will tend to forget to account for it, especially when/if we ever play a superhero game when it is important.

 

I don't know... argh!!! I kind of like MarcDoc's system... but is it really that much more to keep track of or is it that we always forget? I know that when I play (which is not as often as I would like) I always forgot END, then after a few phases, I would remember and would subtract my use of END for the previous actions then... It's easy to keep track of Stun and Body, the GM tells you how much of it you take when you are hit, but END is a player responsibility... Hmmmm, how do we make it more natural to keep track of it? or is it worth it?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How many of you use END outside of magic? and other questions...

 

I definitely use END for 'mundane' applications when I run FH; the idea of beating an opponent by outlasting him is a fairly classic 'bit'. Kind of like the old Muhammad Ali 'rope-a-dope', where he'd just cover up and block and let the opponent wear himself down trying to batter through his defenses, relying on his superior stamina to be able to finish the job once the opponent had exhausted himself.

[Manic Typist]

Re: How many of you use END outside of magic? and other questions...

 

Something I've been considering doing for END and ammo/charges tracking in the future:

 

Take a cup, fill it with colored beads. They take out the beads as they use up END- a quick way of glancing at how much they've used and how much they have left, and it's not really "math" is it? It's just counting at that point.

[Markdoc]

Re: How many of you use END outside of magic? and other questions...

 

Some clarifications as to why I made the change I did, which might help decision making.

 

It is one more thing to keep track of in combat: but then so is STUN So the first question I posed when this comes up, was "Does it add anything useful?" I can't do without STUN, but I decided that END added little, for these reasons:

 

1. Combats in fantasy hero tend to be brutal and short, compared to Champions, and people tend to make less use of powers. It was very rare that people ran out of END. I also found that I was designing my NPCs specifically so that they did not run out of END under normal use ... so I was ignoring it myself! (To be fair, I was often running up to 20 NPCs in a fight, so that added up to significant book-keeping otherwise). The one exception to this was magic users, who did use a lot of powers and who did often run into END problems.

 

So my first decision was that if regular END use went, I wanted to retain something to simulate the effect on mages. I chose to require LTE use, to help reduce the amount of casting that was possible, but regular END use only for magic would also work. It'd just be less restricting.

 

2. I didn't want tireless characters: so I still needed a mechanism to simulate tiredness and exhaustion. Using the LTE rules worked well for that for me, but you could simulate it other ways. This meant, for example, that in prolonged fights, or battles, even non-magic-users got exhausted - as time went on, their LTE END ran down, when it was all gone, actions stated to cost them STUN which meant either operating at low efficiency, or at full efficiency for only short bursts before they collapsed. As an aside, the requirement for Magic use to use LTE had an effect I liked - in big battles, magic-users let off a barrage of spells and counter-spells like artillery , but once the spell barrage was over, the mages were generally spent, and if both sides were still functional, the issue was decided by clash of pike, with occasional eruptions of spell-fire.

 

This mechanism worked well for things like long chases, having to shift heavy objects, wearing heavy armour in hot weather, etc.

 

The last question was "How does it work?" When I decided on the house rule, we played with it as a trial for several sessions, and honestly, apart from less paperwork, it made no difference at all. That's when I decided to keep it as a house rule.

 

cheers, Mark

[Killer Shrike]

Re: How many of you use END outside of magic? and other questions...

 

I use END as written, for all characters. It's a great mechanic, and very much a part of the "HERO System experience" for me.

 

If a player doesn't want to be bothered by END management they are free to buy their abilities 0 END.

[Blorn]

Re: How many of you use END outside of magic? and other questions...

 

My campaign ideas have changed some, more episodic, 2-3 hour adventures, varying players (see my other recent post here).

 

So, my thinking is that using only LTE may not do it for us... I think I'm just going to stick with the standard rules and try an think of ways to "remind" players to track it... as KillerShrike has recommended.

 

Thanks for all of your suggestions. I think if I do a longer campaign, I'll do something like MarcDoc uses. But, since all of the adventures will be episodic, I want to make END important since the players won't be managing any long term resources (with the exception of potions and such).

[rentauri]

Re: How many of you use END outside of magic? and other questions...

 

One of my players buys his strength with the advantage 0 END because he doesn't want to worry about it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How many of you use END outside of magic? and other questions...

 

One of my players buys his strength with the advantage 0 END because he doesn't want to worry about it.

 

see post #2 above.

[rentauri]

Re: How many of you use END outside of magic? and other questions...

 

see post #2 above.

 

Well there is a difference between having the REC/END to use it and just not wanting to be bothered with the mechanic. He has a decent REC for other things, his cantrips, its just for 80% of the character's usage just wants to minimize his usage.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How many of you use END outside of magic? and other questions...

 

Well there is a difference between having the REC/END to use it and just not wanting to be bothered with the mechanic. He has a decent REC for other things' date=' his cantrips, its just for 80% of the character's usage just wants to minimize his usage.[/quote']

 

I was referring to the first part: Pushing. If an ability costs 0 END to use it can't be Pushed.

[rentauri]

Re: How many of you use END outside of magic? and other questions...

 

I was referring to the first part: Pushing. If an ability costs 0 END to use it can't be Pushed.

 

Ah. That would be a reading failure on my part. Because of where I try to cap my DCs and his use of STR + big weapons + Skill Levels he really doesn't need to push, just adjust some stuff.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How many of you use END outside of magic? and other questions...

 

It makes more sense that the rule is 'a power that inherently costs no END cannot be pushed' rather than 'a power that normally does, but is bought to zero END, cannot be pushed either', anyway. I'd certainly let him push his Strength.