Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

[sporeworld]

[h=2]So, looking at Summoning, I'm sure I must have missed something. Stop sign aside, it just seems way unbalanced.[/h]

So, looking at SUMMONING, I'm sure I must have missed something. Stop Sign icon aside, it just seems unbalanced.

 

Example:

Trojan Man buys

Summon

: BattleDroid

... A 100 point automaton with a very basic gun. They are 6 speed.

Phase 12 he activates the power.

Phase 2 they are active, but disoriented. But Trojan man is using his other powers like normal.

Phase 4 they are firing their weapons.

 

To buy this (amicable) 100 point Droid, he only pays 40 points. But for 140 points he can summon TEN of them!!! Am I missing something? That's a massive power with the only downside being I have to wait for it to be effective (and not very long at all if I boost it's speed up). Does he need to summon them one at a time? Does he need to take a phase to Ego roll each one of them (meantime, the others are causing mischief)?

 

Obviously, the GM needs to approve it, but what would be the argument against it, other than the value seems inappropriate.

 

For instance - let's say, instead of battle droids, he summoned Booster-Droids. Each one with AID guns, with Variable Advantages. These TEN (!!!) Drones could be boosting everyone on the team!! Or Damage Shield Drones - each with electrified fields (No Range, Radius) around their bodies, just causing general havok on the battlefield. In close quarters, this would be ridiculous.

 

So, AM I missing something...?

[Escafarc]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

For the extra 100 points you actually can summon 1,048,576 Droids all in one Phase(Summoning 10 Droids would only cost 20 extra pts).

I don't have my books with me so I don't know the the page number where it explains how the 2X/+5pts multiple works. And a 140 Active Point Power would exceed the limit in most games.

[Christopher]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

As Escafarc said, with a 80 Ap Campaing Limit this is the best you can do:

Summon 100 Point Automaton: 20 Base Points

4 doublings (16 active at once): +20 Base Points

Amiciable: +1

Active Points: 80 AP.

 

Now if the GM allows this, is a totally different question. You ahve so far laid out very well why he should not.

STOP and Caution Sing Powers/Advantages/Options are there to "built flavorfull, not game breaking abilities".

 

Of course I have to ask:

What defenses do these guys have? ED/DC wise. Keep in mind that "Takes No STUN" tripples to cost/reduced the effectiveness too 33% for Defensive stuff.

[Beazulbob]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

The power is balanced by reason and GM approval. It is a stop sign power, after all. You could also do obscene things with transformation, multi-form, duplication, hell - even a 12d6 NND for the points you are talking about. Your proposed droids would not be allowed to be called in that number, would need a good reason to exist, and if too potent, the GM will simply say no.

[sporeworld]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Hmmm. My point is that, even with the Stop Sign, it seems WAY to unbalanced. Even with the best intentions, it seems way too cheap - especially the multiplier effect. It's gonna be a pain in the butt for the opposition to take them all out, unless they're grouped up perfectly for Area Effect attacks. Even in relatively small numbers. All these below would be fun to play, and decent character concepts. But the power as it's written just seems off.

Example: King of Hearts

With this power, I could summon sentient cards (walls) that walk towards you and box you in. The battlefield would be littered with High Def living walls for way cheaper than I could afford Force Walls. And way more dynamic.

 

Example: TinkerBoy (3 different slots, or Multiform, or Variable)

I enlarge my pocket full of tiny TinkerBots and toss them around the battlefield. Unified Power: Forcewall (Bubble) projection that launches as they enlarge (think StarWars droids). Phase 12 and there are Forcebubbles everywhere (protecting me, as well). The next round of summoning creates MediBots. The round after that are BoosterBots. All the bots get AIDed up beyond their max, all get healed (repaired) and the first little army just strafe the area with whatever.

 

Example: Sparkz

Elemental summoner of sparky little imps. Each one equipped with their own personal No Range Area Effect Damage Shield. The little buggers scamper all around, climbing on opponents and shocking them relentlessly. Give Spakz a few of his own Area Effect (ranged) Lightning strikes, and the area will light up like Times Square at midnight. Or add Light Illusions and make even more fake imps - so much chaos.

 

Example: Dojo Master

Summons really hard to hit ninjas. Huge Endo drain before heroes realize that's all they are.

 

Example: Red Tape

Account Hero summons his army of bureaucrats to spray his opponents with red-ribbon firing stackable entangles (red tape).

 

And so on. I can see the part in the book that covers summoning megamonster kind of beats, that you can't control, and then run amok. Anyone have any good BALANCED examples of Summon...?

[sporeworld]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

And, just to clarify what initially brought me to Summon: I'd like to create an NPC or Villain that let's the Heroes really exercise their powers and get lots of combat opportunities, at relatively low risk (think of this as the Thug that blocks the first room on the way to a bigger Boss). They can really cut loose offensively, and there's very little risk that they'll be a casualty (again, think Jedi vs BattleDroid - a waste of time to the story, but a good chance to see some flash).

 

It's a good chance to illustrate the value of END, and why Charges are less of a bargain than they appear to be. OAF are at risk of being pilfered, players will need to be wary of friendly fire, ect. And players will be tasked to find an alternative way to stop the flow of drones. Summoner is using a focus? Or Gestures? Or a Radio to control them? Do they all have a common Vulnerability? That sort of thing.

 

But as I understand it now, I wouldn't allow THEM to use it without some serious financial adjustments. Maybe limit 1 creature summoned per round? Must be interruptable? Or easy to Dispel?

[Grailknight]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

As a GM NPC it doesn't matter that the power used is over or under balanced, just that is appropiate for the scenario. It is good that as a new GM that you discover things you consider unbalanced so you can watch for them on PC's. Each iteration of the game has opened up more options and left the balancing to the user. Summon is far from the worst offender and as long as you, the Gm, keep control you'll be fine.

[sporeworld]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Yeah. In year's past, as we populated our universe, nearly every villain (and often henchmen) became a player character (eventually). So when introducing a character, I want to make sure I'm setting the right precedent.

 

Summon is so vague, that it could be used like light illusions - as in "Summon Visual Duplicate of Declared Target". Like it summons a generic doppelganger that mimics the declared target upon arrival. Maybe that needs shapeshift, or it's just a special effect (seems like the prior). But either way, it could be tactically bizarre. The character could be based on very few points, and still achieve the objective.

 

I'll probably declare the power unusable as is. Although, a night of all summoner combat would be... interesting.

[Christopher]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Hmmm. My point is that' date=' even with the Stop Sign, it seems WAY to unbalanced. Even with the best intentions, it seems way too cheap - especially the multiplier effect.[/quote']

That it can do that is why it has the STOP sign.

STOP sign means: "Hey GM, this power can break your game." Nothing else.

 

Summon is best balanced the closer the summoned beign is (pointwise) to the summoner. And the fewer doublings it has.

 

And' date=' just to clarify what initially brought me to Summon: I'd like to create an NPC or Villain that let's the Heroes really exercise their powers and get lots of combat opportunities, at relatively low risk (think of this as the Thug that blocks the first room on the way to a bigger Boss). They can really cut loose offensively, and there's very little risk that they'll be a casualty (again, think Jedi vs BattleDroid - a waste of time to the story, but a good chance to see some flash).[/quote']

1. Simple Answer: Summon is the wrong power.

 

Just define that there are lot's of Henchmen in the fight. There is nothing wrong with giving a 400 point supervillain 4-12 275 viper agents as support, that poorly coordinate or come in waves.

This is not a power of the Villain. It's simply a rule for this scenario.

 

2. Simple Answer:

The Summon is not a power of the Character. There is some item (like a droid controll Station - Summon on a Bulky, Universal OAF) as part of the scenario. He just happens to be the one to be there right now, controling the army. When the focus is destroyed, the droids shut down. When they take over the Focus, they have a giant army at thier disposal.

 

Summon is so vague' date=' that it could be used like light illusions - as in "Summon Visual Duplicate of Declared Target". Like it summons a generic doppelganger that mimics the declared target upon arrival. Maybe that needs shapeshift, or it's just a special effect (seems like the prior). But either way, it could be tactically bizarre. The character could be based on very few points, and still achieve the objective.[/quote']

Small numbers (1-2), as close to characters Points as possible with the Advantages. Those are most likely summons to be balanced.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

It took my group years to get used to the simple idea that Champions is not Dungeon's and Dragons. The system is not designed to keep players from ruining the game. It is designed to allow them to build anything they can think of. It's up to the players and the GM to keep the game from breaking.

[Laundry Knight]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Hero and systems like it require GMs to be fair and mature enough to when to say "no" and stick to it, and it requires players that are fair and mature enough to accept "no" for answer.

[sporeworld]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

All good points, but not exactly where I need to get.

 

The more I think about it, it could be a really fun power. Maybe all that needs to be shifted are the values. The Ego Roll thing for control is just too cheap to defeat, and isn't necessary themed specific (I edited a two paragraph rant on how).

 

Or a Home Rule, like "Must be easily Dispelled/Jammed", or "No Multiplier Advantage". If you want to summon 7 of them, you need to buy the power 7 times, and modify the power to go off at the same time (Elemental Control kind of thing?).

 

All that said, I think it would be really fun to play, if constructed well. We were joking about "The Clansman" who would summon a clan of Highlanders. Or a guy who has Summon, and then a really fun bag of Usable On Others tricks, like Growth, Shrinking, Aid Str, and so on.

 

And this power can really do a good job of emulating a Duplication power like "FlashBack" from Alpha Flight. It isn't really Duplication - it's Summoning his future selves. So many other cool concepts - Summoning fallen Heroes (Archive), wolves (PackMan), a squadron of tiny WW1 BiPlanes (Fokker Ace or Flying Circus or Jasta). If I can get the math balanced, I know the players will want to experiment with it.

[sporeworld]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

That it can do that is why it has the STOP sign.

 

Just define that there are lot's of Henchmen in the fight. There is nothing wrong with giving a 400 point supervillain 4-12 275 viper agents as support, that poorly coordinate or come in waves.

This is not a power of the Villain. It's simply a rule for this scenario.....

 

Yeah. But I think the player are going to want to use this power once they see it in the books. And it's a good concept, especially, as mention, when requiring a Focus... like a radio, or helmet or something. A good loophole to counter the effects.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

The GM's ability to say "no" to a build is key.

 

Also, a lot of your suggestions are specialized builds, most Summons aren't used that way. Think of a Fantasy Hero game ability to Summon creatures, Demons, or even The Dead.

 

Also, the Summoned are under GM control, not PC control. And can leave any time.

[sporeworld]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

As I read it, you can make them amicable, or slavishly loyal. So they'd be under the player's control (relatively), right?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

As I read it' date=' you can make them amicable, or slavishly loyal. So they'd be under the player's control (relatively), right?[/quote']

 

No - Amicable and Slavishly Loyal mean they don't attack the player, the EGO Roll for control is easier (or non-existent). But they are still under GM Control.

 

The Loyalty Advantage is only there to help establish control, dominance and exert ones wishes. They Summoned are usually forced into one or more tasks, but there's nothing saying they'll be suicidal, they won't misinterpret, or in the case of a failed EGO vs EGO, attack, leave or work against the character somehow.

[Lucius]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Friends Everywhere: (Total: 29 Active Cost, 7 Real Cost) Summon 55-point creatures, Side Effects (Side Effect always occurs whenever the character does some specific act; If trying a second EGO vs EGO contest, and failing, contact becomes hostile; +0), Expanded Class of Beings (Very Limited Group; All normal people, but exact Skills, Equipment, Connections, etc. can vary; +1/4), Weak-Willed -4 on EGO Rolls (+1/2) (19 Active Points); Extra Time (5 Minutes, Only to Activate, Variable, may be much shorter or longer according to circumstances; -1), Arrives Under Own Power (-1/2), Summoned Being Must Inhabit Locale (-1/2), Requires A Roll (Skill roll, -1 per 20 Active Points modifier; Jammed, Can choose which of two rolls to make from use to use; -1/2), 8 Charges (No one has an UNLIMITED number of friends they can call in a given day....; -1/2), Limited Power Non Combat (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4)

plus

+10 EGO (10 Active Points); Extra Time (5 Minutes, Only to Activate, Variable, may be much shorter or longer according to circumstances; -1), Limited Power Only to get +1 task and +1 to EGO vs EGO Roll (-1/2), 8 Charges (No one has an UNLIMITED number of friends they can call in a given day....; -1/2), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3)

 

No more than 8 times per day, the character may call upon a useful friend or acquiantance who happens to have the expertise or connections desired. A Skill roll must be made, usually one of the PRE based skills such as Charm, High Society, Streetwise, or Bureaocratics, depending on the kind of person called upon - High Society to get an introduction to a party for a visiting head of state, Streetwise to set up a black market arms purchase, Bureaucratics to expedite your application for a permit to carry concealed high explosives, etc. The Roll is made at -2 and failing it means the power is "jammed" that is, this contact is unavailable or unhelpful and some time and effort is required to contact someone else or locate or persuade this one (one charge expended to no effect.) Getting help requires an EGO vs EGO roll (-2 for Active Points, +2 for the built in boost, for character; -4 for contact, because they're inclined to be helpful) and the contact will do a number of small favors equal to character's EGO/5 +2. Big favors (costs the contact significant money, puts their job at risk, etc) might use up several or ALL of the favor allotment. Very big favors (risking arrest, scandal, or threats to life or health) may not be possible at all. Trying for more favors risks turning the contact against the character (may report to the authorities, order an investigation, alert an enemy to the character's whereabouts, etc)

 

suggested +0 Modifier: Although I did not put it in the write up, this power differs from standard Summons in that the summoned entity may not physically appear; the entire transaction could easily be a phone call or even an exchange of letters. Also, "arrives under own power" may mean the character has to arrive under their own power to where the contact is, rather than vice versa. "Must inhabit locale" should be interpreted so that sometimes, the kind of person you need just isn't available.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Summon Palindromedary

[Lucius]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

10 Sidewalk Preaching: Summon 8 150-point Humans, Loyal (+1/2) (67 Active Points); Extra Time (20 Minutes, Character May Take No Other Actions, -2 3/4), No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; Usually much fewer and weaker than maximum possible; -1), Arrives Under Own Power (-1/2), Summoned Being Must Inhabit Locale (-1/2), Requires An Oratory Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points, RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. (crowd average) EGO Roll contests; -1/2), Limited Power Tasks must be reasonable - within broad definitions of "reasonable." (Organizing a march to protest an unpopular policy is easy. Organizing a lynch mob would be -4 to the Oratory roll at least. Getting even one person to take their clothes off and streak down the street is probably not possible.; -1/4) 7

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thins I should link the character and give it context

[sporeworld]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

No - Amicable and Slavishly Loyal mean they don't attack the player, the EGO Roll for control is easier (or non-existent). But they are still under GM Control.

 

The Loyalty Advantage is only there to help establish control, dominance and exert ones wishes. They Summoned are usually forced into one or more tasks, but there's nothing saying they'll be suicidal, they won't misinterpret, or in the case of a failed EGO vs EGO, attack, leave or work against the character somehow.

 

Right, but unless the GM is sadistic, a slavishly loyal creature would fight with some zeal (loyal) and not say "Later, dude! That guy's 100 points more expensive than I am". Obviously based on backstory, creation, instructions, etc.

 

So my next question is, how can an opponent convince a summon creature to switch sides, outside of mind control. Can they make a similar Ego Roll, without having a power to do so?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Mind Control is the best, a really good Charm roll could work (with some Player input as to what they're offering)... are some possibilities.

 

What I'm really getting at is, it looks unbalanced, because it can be very easily - hence the Stop Sign. But it's a very useful tool for players and GMs who aren't out to get each other, have concerns over ruining the game (versus just "winning"), and understand the tropes involved.

 

There isn't any one answer to how to control this, mitigate issues, or others tamp down on it. You have to take things situation by situation, game by game, and talk it through if you think there will be a problem.

[Lucius]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Put up a tent: Summon 5-point Tent (5 pt Base), Slavishly Devoted (You've never been betrayed by a tent, have you?; +1), Specific Being (You can't set up a tent you didn't bring...; +1) (3 Active Points); Extra Time (5 Minutes, Only to Activate, Character May Take No Other Actions, -1 1/4), OAF (-1), Arrives Under Own Power (Or more likely, you brought it yourself; -1/2), Summoned Being Must Inhabit Locale (Or rather, you have to have a suitable campsite; -1/2), Requires A Roll (PS roll, -1 per 5 Active Points modifier; Can choose which of two rolls to make from use to use; Either Survival or PS: Boy Scout; -1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) Real Cost: 1

 

 

Find Hideout: Summon 15-point Base, Slavishly Devoted (+1) (6 Active Points); Extra Time (20 Minutes, Only to Activate, Spent searching and/or setting up power connections, etc; -1 1/4), Limited Power Only good for 24 hrs - then must move on before electric or phone company traces the tap (-1), Arrives Under Own Power (That is, character must go to where a likely hideout is; hideouts can't come to the character; -1/2), Requires A Roll (Skill roll: Electronics; -1/2) Real Cost 1

 

The "base" itself would have

 

Concealment 12- Real Cost: 9

Disguise 9- Real Cost: 3

Computer Link Real Cost: 3

(Telephone & Internet connection)

 

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes Lucius likes role playing to be in tents

[Lucius]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

I wrote this up a couple of years ago for another thread.

 

 

Cost Powers END

 

35 I Hire What I Need: Summon 32 200-point Hirelings, Vehicles, Bases , Expanded Class of Beings Anything or anyone that can be bought, hired, or rented (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Variable Advantage (+1 Advantages; Limited Group of Advantages; +1 3/4) (244 Active Points); Extra Time (Hours to Days to Weeks depending on what's being sought, -4), Arrives Under Own Power (or maybe you have to go to it, homes don't usually move for instance) (-1/2), Summoned Being Must Inhabit Locale (-1/2), Activation Roll 14- (Sometimes, what you want just isn't available; -1/2), Limited Power Real Money. The more often the power is used, the more likely it is to fail as the money runs low. (-1/2)

 

53 I Buy what I Need: Variable Power Pool, 50 base + 3 control cost, (75 Active Points); Extra Time (Hours to Days to Weeks depending on what's being sought, -4), Limited Special Effect Common SFX (Only what can be bought; -1/2), Activation Roll 14- (Sometimes what you want isn't available; -1/2), Limited Power Real Money: the more often the power is used, the more likely it is to fail (-1/2), Limited Power Complications: illegal purchases may get you arrested, valuable things may draw thieves, weird stuff gets reported in the media, etc (-1/4); all slots IIF Minimum (-1/4)

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And I throw in a free palindromedary tagline

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

[h=2]So' date=' looking at Summoning, I'm sure I must have missed something. Stop sign aside, it just seems way unbalanced.[/b'][/h]

So, looking at SUMMONING, I'm sure I must have missed something. Stop Sign icon aside, it just seems unbalanced.

Example:

Trojan Man buys

Summon

: BattleDroid

... A 100 point automaton with a very basic gun. They are 6 speed.Phase 12 he activates the power.Phase 2 they are active, but disoriented. But Trojan man is using his other powers like normal.Phase 4 they are firing their weapons.To buy this (amicable) 100 point Droid, he only pays 40 points. But for 140 points he can summon TEN of them!!! Am I missing something? That's a massive power with the only downside being I have to wait for it to be effective (and not very long at all if I boost it's speed up). Does he need to summon them one at a time? Does he need to take a phase to Ego roll each one of them (meantime, the others are causing mischief)?Obviously, the GM needs to approve it, but what would be the argument against it, other than the value seems inappropriate.For instance - let's say, instead of battle droids, he summoned Booster-Droids. Each one with AID guns, with Variable Advantages. These TEN (!!!) Drones could be boosting everyone on the team!! Or Damage Shield Drones - each with electrified fields (No Range, Radius) around their bodies, just causing general havok on the battlefield. In close quarters, this would be ridiculous.So, AM I missing something...?

Well 140 points is over double the common point cap for superhero games (which is 60), not that everyone uses hard caps. 140 points is also over 1/3 of a "standard" superhero's starting points (400) so his "using his other powers normally while the summoned beings get oriented" might not mean much. If the droids are automatons that the character programmed/controls then it is arguable he should buy them as "slavishly loyal" just like you must for vehicles and such, not "amiable". Then there's the whole pesky "character concept" thing (no your mutant powered human torch clone who flunk out of barber school can't summon robots just because the power is in the book). Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure plenty of us could build game-breaking summon powers on 60 points or less, but I've also seen book legal planet destroying powers built with less points than your 140 point summon example. It can be unbalancing, but it isn't the horribly screwed up game breaker you seem to think it is (or at least it isn't automatically that). I'd strongly suggest you actually try the rules out as is before building house rules.

[sporeworld]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

"Betrayed by a Tent" - Hilarious!!!

 

Are superheroic adventures really capping out at 60 active points!?! I HAVE been gone a lone time. Side Question: If someone had a compound power of a 60 point EB and a 60 point flash, would that be considered a 120 active point power (and thus be over cap?).

 

So, for 60 Active points, I can Summon a robot that is Slavishly loyal and built on 150 Active points. With the delay in summoning and a cap of one being summoned, it seems reasonable. Now for the trouble-making (I'm trying to be preemptive).

 

As detailed in my Question in the Rules section, it looks like I can connect a side effect of Flash and/or Darkness and/or Barrier to the Summoning (as a useful special effect).

 

Next, if I understand it correctly, I could put my Summon power in a Multipower Slot. As far as I can see, if I made a second slot of Summon, I could now have TWO Summoned being at the same time. It seems a tricky, but I think it's permitted.

 

Phase 1 - Summon. Big burst of smoke and light heralds the arrival of my droid, and I'm surrounded by a huge Barrier.

Phase 2 - Droid is stunned, but I'm not. I Summon slot #2. (and, depending on how I bought it, another round of smoke and flashes).

Phase 3 - Droid #1 is active. Droid #2 is stunned. I Summon slot #3.

 

Assuming all this were legal, it seems OK. Still strikes me as unbalanced though. I hate to waste a night of everyone's time play testing this beast, if we can chat it out here first.

[Lucius]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Are you under the impression you can get Flash, Darkness, and/or Barrier, for free?

 

You can build these and link them to Summon, but you're not getting them automatically.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

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