Laundry Knight Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Several golden age and silver age super-heroes use weapons that would normally do killing damage but due to silver and golden age tropes, they never actually kill anybody. Examples include, Shining Knight and the original Vigilante who use a sword and guns respectively. Something similar can be seen in old episodes of the A-Team where the team is frequently seen shooting AK-47's and setting off explosions, but no one every actually get seriously hurt. For an A-Team campaign, a gamemaster could just make a universal rule that all killing weapons do normal damage when fired at other living beings or define all defenses as resistant. But, for my supers campaign, I would like to have supers that use normal swords and guns without actually killing very often, and I know it is possible to buy a weapon with a multipower with both killing and normal options, but I would rather have a power defined that would optionally convert killing damage to normal damage for any weapon a character may pick up. Does anyone have any suggestions on how best to build this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Re: Killing Damage to Normal Damage Simply make it a Campaign Rule that ALL weapons only deal normal Damage. Either exclude that for buildings/objects/foci, allow a "Transform to Killing" Maneuver similar to the "Club" Optional Maneuver or change buildings/objects/Foci accordingly (so they acn take damage from such attacks). In fact that is what I plan for my Supers Game (maybe with the exception of special "Supers-Killer" weapons): Just think about building a Nuclear Bomb with 20-25d6 Blast, AoE, Megascaled and it still kills everyone (8 or less body, 2 ED) and knocks down buildings (because they are designed to work that way). Now "Superman/Brick survives Atom Bomb" is a peice of cake... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laundry Knight Posted July 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Re: Killing Damage to Normal Damage That does sound like a plan since it would make it unnecessary (and even pointless) to spend on resistant protection. I am getting tired of putting all of my characters in bullet-proof spandex so they could reasonably survive petty gangs is getting old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Re: Killing Damage to Normal Damage That does sound like a plan since it would make it unnecessary (and even pointless) to spend on resistant protection. I am getting tired of putting all of my characters in bullet-proof spandex so they could reasonably survive petty gangs is getting old. That was another reason. But I would generally not use the Weapons/Vehicel Writeups in 6E2 anyway. And the "destructible Object chart" ones carefully. Those are for Heroic games. Those Pistols, Tanks and Vault doors simply don't work out for Supers. Killing attack does not belongs into a Supers game (except Dark Champions). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Re: Killing Damage to Normal Damage Tell that to Wolverine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Re: Killing Damage to Normal Damage Tell that to Wolverine. Are his weapons that deadly? Or just his targets so weak that they die/are K.O./start bleeding to death from 10-12 normal Body or maby 5-6, AP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Re: Killing Damage to Normal Damage Wolverine is usually given, with STR add, in the neighborhood of 3-4d6 HKA, 2x AP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Re: Killing Damage to Normal Damage Wolverine is usually given' date=' with STR add, in the neighborhood of 3-4d6 HKA, 2x AP.[/quote'] 4d6 HKA, 2x AP would be 24 DC in 5E and 16 DC in 6E. Way too high for a 400 Standart Supers game. Wich would translate to a 12d6, 2xAP Blast in 6E. What exaclty is a normal going to do against that, aside from beign K.O. and propably bleeding to death? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Re: Killing Damage to Normal Damage This is OT - but Killing Attacks are perfect acceptable in Superhero games, and you don't have to be all Iron Age to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Re: Killing Damage to Normal Damage 4d6 HKA, 2x AP would be 24 DC in 5E and 16 DC in 6E. Way too high for a 400 Standart Supers game. Wich would translate to a 12d6, 2xAP Blast in 6E. What exaclty is a normal going to do against that, aside from beign K.O. and propably bleeding to death? "Standard" depends upon who is running the game and who is playing in it. It is far too broad of a descriptor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Re: Killing Damage to Normal Damage I wouldn't mess around with point-statting this out; it's a 'convention of the genre'. Just convert the killing DC to normal DC when used against a living target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Re: Killing Damage to Normal Damage "Standard" depends upon who is running the game and who is playing in it. It is far too broad of a descriptor. It's still a hell-of-big attack. And like I said, normals character might have to be adapted a little. 8 Body, 2 PD + maybe 6 PD from Armor (propably less), won't stand up against 12 DC, AP without landing at 0 BODY. And about 30 STUN after Defenses. Also, if that level of attack is allowed and Wolverine player only choose the version with two levels of AP - and not also one with 1 AP or no advantages - then he has himself to blame to only have an attack whose math only works out against targets with one Level of Hardened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Re: Killing Damage to Normal Damage Let's see... Normals standing up to Wolverine... Not seeing a problem with the numbers. 2x AP is due to the "adamantium blades slicing through vanadium steel plate like butter". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Re: Killing Damage to Normal Damage Let's see... Normals standing up to Wolverine... Not seeing a problem with the numbers. So you agree with my expression "We don't need Killing Attacks in Supers if we slightly rebuild the normal world"? Because the entire exchange so far was about you seeing a problem. 2x AP is due to the "adamantium blades slicing through vanadium steel plate like butter". That may be the intent and Special Effect. But from Rules PoV this attack is designed only to take on heavily armored targets (High defense with 1 Hardening). It's an attack with 1/3 of the AP and DC going only towards that goal. Any Advantaged attack is a bet - that the target will have just the wrong combination of defenses, for the Advantages to be worthly over the raw power of just throwing a lot more dice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Re: Killing Damage to Normal Damage Let's see... Normals standing up to Wolverine... Not seeing a problem with the numbers. 2x AP is due to the "adamantium blades slicing through vanadium steel plate like butter". Never mind the fact that physics doesn't actually work like that ... no matter how much harder one material is than another, it's still limited by how much force you can put behind it. Aunt May with adamantium claws would still be hard-pressed to cut through wood, much less swipe through titanium ... but, comic-book physics, whatcha gonna do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Re: Killing Damage to Normal Damage Never mind the fact that physics doesn't actually work like that ... no matter how much harder one material is than another' date=' it's still limited by how much force you can put behind it. Aunt May with adamantium claws would still be hard-pressed to cut through wood, much less swipe through titanium ... but, comic-book physics, whatcha gonna do?[/quote'] There seems to be only one rule about Superhero physics: If the idea is at least based on real world physics or concept - no matter how far off into total ignorance of physics it goes from then - it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Re: Killing Damage to Normal Damage So you agree with my expression "We don't need Killing Attacks in Supers if we slightly rebuild the normal world"? Because the entire exchange so far was about you seeing a problem. That's certainly your interpretation. Never mind the fact that physics doesn't actually work like that ... no matter how much harder one material is than another' date=' it's still limited by how much force you can put behind it. Aunt May with adamantium claws would still be hard-pressed to cut through wood, much less swipe through titanium ... but, comic-book physics, whatcha gonna do?[/quote']Stay out of Wolverine's way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Re: Killing Damage to Normal Damage To the OP issue - why not simply allow (or require) the Club Weapon maneuver? Its sole purpose is to change Killing damage to Normal damage. Simply allow it for guns as well as swords and we're done. To Wolverine, we harp a lot on the description of his powers. He kills a lot of mooks in the comics. How many long-term X-men villains are dead from his claws? They seem remarkably ineffective at taking out team opponents/supervillains. In a Silver Age style game, just make Wolvie's claws add AP to his martial arts and STR damage, and call it a day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Re: Killing Damage to Normal Damage Heaven forbid they should actually kill a character that some other writer might want to use in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Re: Killing Damage to Normal Damage To the OP issue - why not simply allow (or require) the Club Weapon maneuver? Its sole purpose is to change Killing damage to Normal damage. Simply allow it for guns as well as swords and we're done. They we could not use any other maneuver alongside this. No haymaker or move-by's. So we still have to change the attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Re: Killing Damage to Normal Damage Why? Is the need to do other maneuvers that important to the game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Re: Killing Damage to Normal Damage To the OP issue - why not simply allow (or require) the Club Weapon maneuver? Its sole purpose is to change Killing damage to Normal damage. Simply allow it for guns as well as swords and we're done. They we could not use any other maneuver alongside this. No haymaker or move-by's. So we still have to change the attacks. Why? Is the need to do other maneuvers that important to the game? Simple solution - allow Club Weapon to be combined with other maneuvers. Move by's can - that's how we got the grab-by. It's how we build a Disarm by. Really, some of the maneuvers need to be reclassified in some fashion to be add-on's to other maneuvers, rather than maneuvers unto themselves. Some already are. You don't Brace and Set, then not combine that with a Strike, you can Pull your Punch with most maneuvers, and a Hipshot just accelerates your other maneuver. Why can't a character Haymaker a Squeeze, a Throw, a Shove or an Escape? You want otherwise lethal attacks to be capable of being used in non-lethal fashion. Allowing Club Weapon to combine with lethal attacks at no other penalty allows lethal attacks to be used in non-lethal fashion. It seems like the easiest solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laundry Knight Posted July 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Re: Killing Damage to Normal Damage I haven't read about the club maneuver in a while. I will have to check that out. I like Christopher's idea of just simply changing all KA into normal attacks, but it does hose those who buy powers or resistant defenses built in, and using the club maneuver as a free maneuver helps to resolve cost issue though that could be replaced by replacing resistant defense with hardened and impenetrable defense, And, as GM, I could by fiat say that most villains and thugs use the club maneuver by default and saving KA's for the most horrendous of villains, but an alternative to the last point is to create a killing maneuver that converts normal damage to killing damage to be used by the vilest of villains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin2 Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Re: Killing Damage to Normal Damage Supers do need killing attacks. As I found out when I limited the number of killing attacks and then threw a couple of VIPER robots at the group and only about one attack could do anything and that would have been party wipe out if they did not get creative. After that I allowed a rewrite to have killing attack for that sort of reason of destroying robots and things that a 12DC standard attack can not do damage with body (they all seemed to not get the idea that AP attacks can also be for Blast attacks!). So if you want a campaign that has the rule that against living targets you do not kill convert it to a normal attack but keep it against robots and things you do want to kill. That campaign will also have the rule that resistant defence is not required for living characters as it is not needed so players and villains get to spend the points on something else. The Wolverine question is why has the US government not locked him up for mass murder with his head count he has killed? Why does he get away it in comics both the slicing and dicing and the deaths? Because it sells comics and you can not dislike Wolverine as he does it for the right reason (most of the time anyway ). He is the guy you love but don't approve of his tactics (most of the time anyway ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Re: Killing Damage to Normal Damage Most likely because Logan can call up Fury and say "Hey, Nick, you know those ninjas you've been having problems with? They won't be any longer. Can you make my trial go away? Thanks." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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