Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Hmm. Up through the 60s, I'd say Supes was as strong and as tough as anyone in the DCU. In the 70s-90s you got villains like Darkseid, Validus, Mongul and Doomsday, so maybe he dropped a half a tier or something by comparison. Still generally obscenely strong and tough, though--seems like he'd be at or near the top in most settings.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

I'd expect him to be top tier, but I'd also expect the occasional character whose schtick is "strong and tough" to better him in those areas, and megavillains to prove comparable while having other abilities or superior when strength and toughness is their primary ability.

 

In CU structure, I'd expect him to place above the typical Brick, so more than 60, but I could see him falling well short of Grond. 75 has the right feel, without doing any formal analysis.

[Blau Stern]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Not really. Everybody that throws up a version of Superman is throwing up a "correct" version if they're being honest with themselves when they write it up. But then the basic argument here seems to be everyone has to agree what is correct.

I disagree, if they were being honest to themselves, "Superman" wouldn't be concerned about house fires.

[massey]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

I'd expect him to be top tier, but I'd also expect the occasional character whose schtick is "strong and tough" to better him in those areas, and megavillains to prove comparable while having other abilities or superior when strength and toughness is their primary ability.

 

In CU structure, I'd expect him to place above the typical Brick, so more than 60, but I could see him falling well short of Grond. 75 has the right feel, without doing any formal analysis.

 

Grond is the Hulk with the serial numbers filed off, and in their crossovers, Supes and the Hulk have been about an even match, strength-wise. He also needs to be stronger than Viperia, who is pretty much an evil Supergirl. Add 5-10 points to her abilities and you'll have a decent Superman, except... Champions mega-villains skew the whole deal. You get guys like Dr. Destroyer who is out of scale with everyone else. Even without Dr. D, you've got Holocaust and Gravitar and other master villains who Supes should be able to handle on his own.

 

Building Superman on the same number of points as average characters gives you an awful Superman. He simply has too many powers. He gets spread too thin. He's got two main attack powers (strength and heat vision) which aren't efficient to buy together. He's got at least 20 to 30 points of enhanced senses, bare minimum. He's got movement separate from his strength, and life support, and he's not an unskilled character. All these add up to lots of points. A basic 250 brick is going to have a much tighter build because all he's worried about is hitting things. Superman ends up as a poor man's brick, with some nice senses and negligible energy projection abilities. He's going to get beat up by even a weak normal character though. And that's not cool.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

I disagree' date=' if they were being honest to themselves, "Superman" wouldn't be concerned about house fires.[/quote']

 

Superman doesn't go looking for house fires but if he's already nearby and doesn't notice anything more pressing at the moment he will help. When he's on patrol he is constantly looking for the best place to do good. He knows he can't fix everything but he's not above rescuing a cat stuck in a tree once in awhile.

[Blau Stern]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Superman doesn't go looking for house fires but if he's already nearby and doesn't notice anything more pressing at the moment he will help. When he's on patrol he is constantly looking for the best place to do good. He knows he can't fix everything but he's not above rescuing a cat stuck in a tree once in awhile.

I meant personally concerned about house fires, genuinely concerned for his physical well-being when he responds to a house fire. Which Cassandra's version would be.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Meh. Different strokes and all that. I'd probably never bother trying to write ultra-powerful concepts "down" to a tight budget of 250-400 points, but I can respect the mindset. At the same time, one can conceivably write up an 800 point version of Robin, or a 1200 point Daredevil.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Grond is the Hulk with the serial numbers filed off' date=' and in their crossovers, Supes and the Hulk have been about an even match, strength-wise. He also needs to be stronger than Viperia, who is pretty much an evil Supergirl. Add 5-10 points to her abilities and you'll have a decent Superman, [i']except...[/i] Champions mega-villains skew the whole deal. You get guys like Dr. Destroyer who is out of scale with everyone else. Even without Dr. D, you've got Holocaust and Gravitar and other master villains who Supes should be able to handle on his own.

 

Building Superman on the same number of points as average characters gives you an awful Superman. He simply has too many powers. He gets spread too thin. He's got two main attack powers (strength and heat vision) which aren't efficient to buy together. He's got at least 20 to 30 points of enhanced senses, bare minimum. He's got movement separate from his strength, and life support, and he's not an unskilled character. All these add up to lots of points. A basic 250 brick is going to have a much tighter build because all he's worried about is hitting things. Superman ends up as a poor man's brick, with some nice senses and negligible energy projection abilities. He's going to get beat up by even a weak normal character though. And that's not cool.

 

So you're trying to make a DC character fit into a Marvel-esq campaign world. What's the point of this exercise exactly?

 

Anyway, I think Superman is a hybrid Brick/Speedster. He's not the best of either but because of the blend in abilities can usually defeat characters who are just stronger or just faster.

 

And to show you one way it could be done on starting character points here is a version who is modeled primarily on the Byrne reboot and the character's first Animated Series appearances. The writeup indicates a top STR of 75 but up to a 120 STR can be achieved for a few seconds (VERY high END cost) if additional Limitations are taken on the Density slot in the VPP (and I mean tangible Limitations like Extra Time, Concentration, Increased END, etc...). This is an extremely skills lite version of the character as it's essentially showing him as he would be just after getting off the bus in Metropolis from Smallville.

 

Hyper-Man's starting PC version of Superman for a modern setting.

[Blau Stern]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Depends on the Robin, but generally speaking his skills would make him exceedingly expensive. Same with Daredevil to a limited degree.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Depends on the Robin' date=' but generally speaking his skills would make him exceedingly expensive. Same with Daredevil to a limited degree.[/quote']

 

Well, there's also a bunch of Contacts and Favors, Luck and Combat Luck, a bunch of talents, martial maneuvers, etc. Mr. Fantastic, for example, would have a skill list rivaling Dr. Destroyer's, a big gadget pool, vehicles, bases, followers, etc. Unlike PCs in an RPG, long-established superheroes in the comics tend to be pretty "self-actualized", having mostly reached and achieved (or even exceeded) their potential.

[Greywind]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Well, on a straight conversion from DC Heroes, there's always the possibility in that game system of someone like Robin knocking Superman out. How would you convert that over?

[Blau Stern]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

So you're trying to make a DC character fit into a Marvel-esq campaign world. What's the point of this exercise exactly?

 

Anyway, I think Superman is a hybrid Brick/Speedster. He's not the best of either but because of the blend in abilities can usually defeat characters who are just stronger or just faster.

 

And to show you one way it could be done on starting character points here is a version who is modeled primarily on the Byrne reboot and the character's first Animated Series appearances. The writeup indicates a top STR of 75 but up to a 120 STR can be achieved for a few seconds (VERY high END cost) if additional Limitations are taken on the Density slot in the VPP (and I mean tangible Limitations like Extra Time, Concentration, Increased END, etc...). This is an extremely skills lite version of the character as it essentially showing soon after just getting off the bus from Smallville in Metropolis.

 

Hyper-Man's starting PC version of Superman for a modern setting.

Marvel already has several characters like Superman. Captain America holds similar behavior patterns, even if he lacks the powers. Gladiator, Sentry, and a few others I'm not thinking of have the same powers. So there's no reason you can't fit Superman in Marvel, because he's already there.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

I think there has always been a hidden assumption about Superman's Invulnerability. Everyone tends to assume that he doesn't have some measure of control over his 'defenses', that they are static. What if he actually does but the special effect does not show up as the classic 'force field' but rather it appears to be him bracing against or blocking an attack? My version is based on the latter. He has respectable 20r/25 base defenses but when prepared can increase those in a number of different ways (Density, Resistant Defense, Damage Negation).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Because it's too much work.

 

Not really. It's less work to just handwave mundane tech not hurting supers than making every character have 60 defenses to be bulletproof or an insane DCV.

 

there are weapons that can seriously injure superheroes, mundane, ordinary, modern, realistic, boring weapons.

 

Not in my supers games.

[Blau Stern]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Not really. It's less work to just handwave mundane tech not hurting supers than making every character have 60 defenses to be bulletproof or an insane DCV.

 

 

 

Not in my supers games.

Your Batman is bulletproof? To the point that someone can take an anti-tank weapon and shoot him with it? Seems a tad silly since he's been shot and nearly killed by it on numerous occasions.

[Cassandra]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Regarding "realism" in build, I just have to say we're talking about superhero comic reality here. The general laws of physics or even common sense don't really apply.

 

There is an agreed upon reality which lets people fly, survive bullets fired at them, and lets them walk around in skin tight costumes.

 

Regarding Superman's "invulnerability", it can be explained by having him have a multi power with a slot for Missile Deflection. He's never actually hit by the blast so his defenses aren't a factor.

 

Further, there is a tend to want to simulate powers we've seen in movies or on TV, let alone the comics. Sure it looks like fun to move the Moon into a different orbit, but exactly how often do you have to pull that rabbit out of a hat. And in the 1950's Superman TV show the Man of Steel actually used Desolid, and in another episode Duplication.

 

The answer to having a power you don't usually use is simple. Have a small VPP then use Extra Time and Increased END to simulate the power needed for that particular mission.

[RexMundi]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

One can always Block. Blocking seems to be forgotten often in the realm of making someone hard to hurt.

 

~Rex

[Blau Stern]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

I'm not concerned about realism so much as I'm concerned about the rules being handwaved because someone was feeling lazy about building a well-known hero.

 

Neither blocking nor Missile deflection work against house fires.

 

I'd estimate that Superman's VPP is quite large.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Regarding point totals, I think the horse has already left the barn on that one, since 4th edition at least(Harbinger of Justice on the hero side, Dr. D on the villain side). Plus if you play weekly and accumulate 2xp per session, then you go up 100xp per year. Even if you started at 250, after 5 years you'd hit 750 points. Sometime past year 7 you'd pass 1000 points. I'd tend to assume that Superman in his "standard" context is a powerful superhero who's been around a decade or so.

[RexMundi]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

I'm not concerned about realism so much as I'm concerned about the rules being handwaved because someone was feeling lazy about building a well-known hero.

 

Neither blocking nor Missile deflection work against house fires.

 

I'd estimate that Superman's VPP is quite large.

 

Life Support works against House Fires. Environmental effect.

 

~Rex

[Blau Stern]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Not if they're hot enough to constitute an attack. Which most house fires are. It very specifically mentions this.

[Greywind]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Regarding point totals' date=' I think the horse has already left the barn on that one, since 4th edition at least(Harbinger of Justice on the hero side, Dr. D on the villain side). Plus if you play weekly and accumulate 2xp per session, then you go up 100xp per year. Even if you started at 250, after 5 years you'd hit 750 points. Sometime past year 7 you'd pass 1000 points. I'd tend to assume that Superman in his "standard" context is a powerful superhero who's been around a decade or so.[/quote']

Not when they keep rebooting.

[Cassandra]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Let's assume that Superman earn one point per Comic book appearance.

 

Where would the points go?

 

First, he would have to build a Fortress of Solitude (Base), and Robots (Followers).

 

Then he would become popular (Rep), and gain skills as a reporter (Disguise, Deduction, Conversation, Streetwise), and learn how to use his powers (Power Skill on STR and EB). He would make friends as Superman (Well Connected) some pretty important (Very Useful Contact), and eventually gain the trust of the entire world (International Police Powers). Then he would join the Justice League and contribute to the building of it's various bases.

 

One way of keeping a character like Superman in a normal (250 Points Campaign for new players) is to build him on 350 Points, but also have him have access to various bases and contacts befitting a Legend.

[Cassandra]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Furthermore, a Superman built on 350 shouldn't be just a huge STR and DEF, but also have a number of secondary powers that give him a major advantage in being a superhero.

 

He should have a Rep 14-

 

He should have VPP reflecting him flexibility.

 

And he should have followers "The Superman Family" (Supergirl, Steel, Superboy, Power Girl, Superwoman, etc.).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Your Batman is bulletproof? To the point that someone can take an anti-tank weapon and shoot him with it? Seems a tad silly since he's been shot and nearly killed by it on numerous occasions.

 

Actually, yeah, my Batman would be bulletproof, because he's a multi-billionaire and knows some of the greatest scientists in the world, most of whom owe him favors, and wouldn't be stupid enough to run around in light kevlar body armor. He'd have some awesome space-age body armor (that still looks like his regular costume). In any case, it's less 'bulletproof' and more 'you can't hit him'.

 

Keep in mind, this is galaxy-hopping Justice League Batman, not street-level Gotham City Batman. This is the Batman that went toe-to-toe in unarmed combat with Darkseid and held his own.