Requesting help re: lost y cool combat chart.

[Leohat]

Years ago (like 12) I was at GenCon Milwaukee and played a really cool Hero System session run by Dave Mattingly. It was probably the most fun I've ever had playing hero. The best thing about it was that the GM had a REALLY REALLY cool cheat sheet for making combat go faster. It had a grid with damage classes on the Y axis and a 3d6 roll on the X axis with the cells being the STUN/BOD of the attack. Rather than rolling a ton of dice and counting STUN/BOD, just roll 3d6 and consult chart

 

I took it home and used it for years and years but now I've moved and I can't find it. I don't suppose anyone has a PDF or Excel or text copy of it?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Requesting help re: lost y cool combat chart.

 

Here you go.

[Greywind]

Re: Requesting help re: lost y cool combat chart.

 

That looks like it takes all the fun out of chucking a handful of dice.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Requesting help re: lost y cool combat chart.

 

That looks like it takes all the fun out of chucking a handful of dice.

 

On the other hand, it also takes all the tedium out of counting a handful of dice...

[Leohat]

Re: Requesting help re: lost y cool combat chart.

 

Here you go.

 

 

 

YES! That's the one. You are my new best friend.

[Leohat]

Re: Requesting help re: lost y cool combat chart.

 

On the other hand' date=' it also takes all the tedium out of [i']counting[/i] a handful of dice...

 

Players have the option of rolling dice OR using the chart. (or using a dice rolling function that my math geek friend wrote for his programmable calculator).

I like using the chart because it's so much faster when I'm GMing. It also tends to smooth out the killing attack stun lotto (as well as smoothing the curve on entangles, drains, flashes, etc, etc, ad nausem).

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Requesting help re: lost y cool combat chart.

 

Players have the option of rolling dice OR using the chart. (or using a dice rolling function that my math geek friend wrote for his programmable calculator).

I like using the chart because it's so much faster when I'm GMing. It also tends to smooth out the killing attack stun lotto (as well as smoothing the curve on entangles, drains, flashes, etc, etc, ad nausem).

 

Yep, I use it when I'm GMing too (for larger attacks). It's on my homemade GM's screen.

[mattingly]

Re: Requesting help re: lost y cool combat chart.

 

Hi, LeoHat. It's great to hear that you enjoyed the game. I still run big games like that. I probably should have used that chart this year; I had several newbies this time around.

 

Thanks, Derek, for watching my back and replying quickly while I'm here at GenCon

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Requesting help re: lost y cool combat chart.

 

Cool idea, I'm gonna have to try this out.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Requesting help re: lost y cool combat chart.

 

What you can also do, if you are in the mood, is use your attack roll for determining damage, using this chart, the actual unmodified 3d6 roll determines if you hit and what damage you do. I dare say that is an unpopular idea - always has been in the past - but it makes a lot of sense in that skilled opponents CAN, but do not necessarily, cause more damage on a hit. The more skilled opponent will cause more damage per DC on average over time as against a less skilled opponent.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Requesting help re: lost y cool combat chart.

 

What you can also do' date=' if you are in the mood, is use your attack roll for determining damage, using this chart, the actual unmodified 3d6 roll determines if you hit and what damage you do. I dare say that is an unpopular idea - always has been in the past - but it makes a lot of sense in that skilled opponents CAN, but do not necessarily, cause more damage on a hit. The more skilled opponent will cause more damage per DC on average over time as against a less skilled opponent.[/quote']

 

True, but it also means that a character -- even a skilled character -- will cause less damage with an exceptionally good Attack Roll. That certainly seems counter-intuitive. Plus, while it would be a time-saver (even moreso than using this chart is a time-saver in the first place), it also runs counter to the general HERO System structure of low rolls being good for Success Rolls and high rolls being good for Effect Rolls...

 

EDIT: Also, it would have some secondary effects due to Combat Maneuvers that currently take OCV penalties due to their aggressiveness. For example, an Offensive Strike, where the attacker sacrifices accuracy in exchange for more damage, would actually cause the attack to do less damage with this method...

[Christopher]

Re: Requesting help re: lost y cool combat chart.

 

What you can also do' date=' if you are in the mood, is use your attack roll for determining damage, using this chart, the actual unmodified 3d6 roll determines if you hit and what damage you do. I dare say that is an unpopular idea - always has been in the past - but it makes a lot of sense in that skilled opponents CAN, but do not necessarily, cause more damage on a hit. The more skilled opponent will cause more damage per DC on average over time as against a less skilled opponent.[/quote']

There is the issues that beyond average damage becomes much less likely. A 18 on the Damage Table won't do anything with a 18 on the to-hit Roll.

When OCV = DCV, your damage is effectively capped at a 11 damage Roll.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Requesting help re: lost y cool combat chart.

 

True' date=' but it also means that a character -- even a skilled character -- will cause [i']less[/i] damage with an exceptionally good Attack Roll. That certainly seems counter-intuitive. Plus, while it would be a time-saver (even moreso than using this chart is a time-saver in the first place), it also runs counter to the general HERO System structure of low rolls being good for Success Rolls and high rolls being good for Effect Rolls...

 

EDIT: Also, it would have some secondary effects due to Combat Maneuvers that currently take OCV penalties due to their aggressiveness. For example, an Offensive Strike, where the attacker sacrifices accuracy in exchange for more damage, would actually cause the attack to do less damage with this method...

 

That is only because we have come to think of a '3' as an exceptionally good roll, whereas all it is is an exceptionally unlikely roll. If you can only hit someone with a '3' then there seems to be no good reason why the only hit you can manage would be a full blooded smack.

 

I would argue that it is entirely consistent with Hero low/high. It is only one roll, but it is is low it is more likely to hit and if it is high and hits, it causes more damage, the thing is that both the low and high roll principles apply to the same roll

 

Comment on EDIT: this is true, although -2 to hit on the chart is (at most) -6 Stun and -2 Body on a 20DC attack (the difference between hitting on a 17 and hitting on a 15), and probably rather less than that: you would still be doing more damage than if you had not used it on a hit.

 

There are other consequences too: it would mean that high CV concepts would need less defence and less DCs of damage, and you probably could not use it for AoE attacks and such. It would also mean that damage would probably be slightly lower overall as you get more hits rolling 10 and under than 11 or more (the break point) but, on the plus side, it would speed combat considerably and, I think, allow for some interesting builds: for example you could buy increased DCV only to divert damage, simulating a block that deflects some but not all of the force of a blow.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Requesting help re: lost y cool combat chart.

 

There is the issues that beyond average damage becomes much less likely. A 18 on the Damage Table won't do anything with a 18 on the to-hit Roll.

 

True, but then what is your damage realistically capped at with a 12d6 roll anyway? The table allows you to do up to 55/17 (on a roll of 17). I have not worked out the odds but you probably have a better chance of rolling a 17 (if you can it on a 17) than you have of rolling 55 on 12d6, or it is similarly unlikely.

 

 

When OCV = DCV' date=' your damage is effectively capped at a 11 damage Roll.[/quote']

 

True if all you do is stand there and slug it out. This would encourage you to take combat risks, trying to put yourself in a situation where you get a few more OCV, or impose a DCV penalty on your opponent to increase your damage. This is effectively a critical/fumble system that I could happily support; it is not too extreme, and it is very much controlled by tactical considerations.

 

As I said in my reply to Derek, one effect is that average damage should be lower (more rolls hit under 11 than over) , and, I'm not suggesting we simly up sticks and use this as a replacement for the current coombat system, but I think it is well worth while considering for the right sort of game and group.

[Old Man]

Re: Requesting help re: lost y cool combat chart.

 

On the other hand' date=' it also takes all the tedium out of [i']counting[/i] a handful of dice...

 

I dunno, I always thought that was fun. I'm pretty good at adding up stun totals from big handfuls of dice, as long as it's pips and not numerals. It would never be as fast as this chart, but like Sean I find myself wondering if the odds are actually the same with the 3d6 as with the 20d6 roll. When you throw 20d6, the bell curve effect is strong. (And when you throw 1d6K bought with massive STUNx the bell curve effect is minimized, muahahaaa! )

[Markdoc]

Re: Requesting help re: lost y cool combat chart.

 

Hmmm. I find Sean's idea intriguing. Additionally, quite a lot of groups already use the inverted to-hit roll, which does away with the problem that an OCV advantage on the dice results in less damage on average (of course, it adds instead the problem that a good roll is both more likely to hit and will do more damage). Currently, our group uses the "high is good" attack rolls approach, and I don't have a problem with the idea that a higher roll results in more damage, since we already use a critical hit system where an '18' gives you a choice of either choosing your hit location, or doing maximum damage. This is a very much more granular approach, but the concept is not too different.

 

As for Old Man's comment, just eyeballing the numbers, they look like they are adjusted to give roughly the same % chance across the different number of dice.

 

cheers, Mark

[psyber624]

Re: Requesting help re: lost y cool combat chart.

 

Before i learned that HERO was still around I was playing with FUZION with the POWER CORE addon developed by STUDIO 187. In there they described an optional system called "A Good Hit is a Good Hit" where every point you made your attack roll by resulted in one effect die becoming an automatic 6. This alleviates some of the concerns i saw in this thread, but as Christopher pointed out it makes certain combat maneuvers less effective (Offensive Strike goes from adding 14 average damage to only adding 9). It also results in more damage on average so defenses have to be increased, and the value of OCV/DCV are GREATLY increased as they now directly affect damage done (2.5 pts of damage per CV on average). This would result in balance issues, but I thought i'd mention it here.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Requesting help re: lost y cool combat chart.

 

Or you could reverse the chart for the One Roll = Hit/Damage. That way, rolling lower means you are more likely to hit and do more damage. This assumes standard Hero rolling protocol.

 

EDIT: Next question is how would this work with Killing Attacks? That looks like it would only be functional for Stun Only. Maybe convert it to DC instead of straight dice?