Compound Power with limitations

[Christopher]

I wanted to built a "boost" power, that is in some way time limited. After the time runs out something happens that makes re-use problematic - say a Burnout Roll* or a Side Effect.

The potential target character has (among other things) a Blast and decent use for STR.

 

The Common Limitations:

Time Limit (1 Turn, -2 1/2), Require Roll (11-, Burnout; -1/2)

or

Time Limit (1 Turn, -2 1/2), Minor Side Effect (Always, Drain to a lot of Important Powers with Delayed Return Rater or high Effect roll**; -1/2)

The Power can be re-activated (0-phase action) immediately after it runs out, creating the illusion of continous use while having to Roll or accumulate the Side Effect every turn.

 

The Power:

+2 OCV, Com. Lim (-3)

plus

+2 DCV, Com. Lim (-3)

plus

+1 SPD, Com. Lim (-3)

plus

+10 STR, Com. Lim (-3)

plus

+2d6 Main Blast, Com. Lim (-3)

plus

+25 END, Com. Lim (-3)

plus

+5 REC, Com. Lim (-3)

plus

+5 DEX, Com. Lim (-3)

plus

+5 PD, Com. Lim (-3)

plus

+5 ED, Com. Lim (-3)

Total AP: 80 (6*10 AP. + 4*5 AP)

 

*I first thought about using just the Burnout Roll, but about the only way I could make that work would be to roll every phase. Wich makes the power too likely to fail.

**while the normal AP minumum is 15 AP, the overall AP of the Power bringe the AP of the side effect closer to 20. In reality I will propably go for a bigger Side effect.

 

The Time Limit on Blast and STR is the tricky part. It does not mean that the Power Persist after use (as normal for Time Limit Advantage). It means that from the activation of this power, these extra STR/Blast are only avalible for one Turn.

 

Asuming the character would be okay with the power boost, would you allow this construct with those limitation Values?

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Compound Power with limitations

 

If it was my game, I'd want the side effect to last a day or so. Perhaps a Drain on STR, CON, STUN, or END with delayed return rate of 6 hours. You're basically getting 80 active points of stuff for 20 points. One turn is usually enough to get you through a whole fight, but that may depend on the speed of your characters. So to get a significant boost, I think having the rest of the day with some penalties sounds reasonable.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Compound Power with limitations

 

I wouldn't allow you to reactivate until after the Side Effect had worn off, I would make that last a preset 1 Hour or 6 Hour period.

[Christopher]

Re: Compound Power with limitations

 

Perhaps I should determine the powerlevel:

This is for a standart Superheroic game.

 

I wouldn't allow you to reactivate until after the Side Effect had worn off' date=' I would make that last a preset 1 Hour or 6 Hour period.[/quote']

My biggest problem is that this would increase the Drains Cost a lot. Propably to the point where it has almost no effect roll.

Also, why waiting for the Side Effect to cool off? Drain is cummulative by default.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Compound Power with limitations

 

Erm, this just seems wrong, so let's see if it is...the problem, at least the one that draws my eye, is Time Limit.

 

First off, what is it doing? Take it away and you have (say) STR+10 (10 points), with a side effect, and, presumably, that side effect would affect the character every time they used STR.

 

Somehow, Time Limit appears to be making side effects less of a burden. Also you seem to be using it for attack powers which is disapproved of in the Modifier description (and they should be 0 END, even if you could), and, actually, thinking about it, I can not see how Time Limit is a limitation at all, really, if it can be pretty much automatically re-started.

 

The whole Modifier seems overly generous and out of proportion with the limitation imposed: here is a spell from the book -

 

Darkvision Spell: Nightvision

(5 Active Points);

Gestures (-¼), Incantations

(-¼), Requires A

Magic Roll (-½), Time

Limit (15 Minutes, +1

Minute per point Magic

roll succeeds by; -1).

Total cost: 2 points.

 

Basically you get an additional -1 (which is pretty huge) just because you have to incant and gesture every 15 minutes. That is far more than you'd get if you had to incant and gesture throughout (which would be worth an additional -1/2).

 

It is wrong, wrong, wrong.

 

Isn't it?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Compound Power with limitations

 

Perhaps I should determine the powerlevel:

This is for a standart Superheroic game.

 

 

My biggest problem is that this would increase the Drains Cost a lot. Propably to the point where it has almost no effect roll.

Also, why waiting for the Side Effect to cool off? Drain is cummulative by default.

 

cost of a Drain? No - it's part of the Side Effect, you're not buying a Drain. You get drained.

 

I might even set the loss at a set amount as well, say 1/2 the amount boosted.

[Christopher]

Re: Compound Power with limitations

 

Erm, this just seems wrong, so let's see if it is...the problem, at least the one that draws my eye, is Time Limit.

 

First off, what is it doing? Take it away and you have (say) STR+10 (10 points), with a side effect, and, presumably, that side effect would affect the character every time they used STR.

 

Somehow, Time Limit appears to be making side effects less of a burden. Also you seem to be using it for attack powers which is disapproved of in the Modifier description (and they should be 0 END, even if you could), and, actually, thinking about it, I can not see how Time Limit is a limitation at all, really, if it can be pretty much automatically re-started.

Thanks, I think I see my error now.

[Ice9]

Re: Compound Power with limitations

 

I think the root of the pricing oddness is that how often you have to "activate" a constant power is a pretty fluid thing, and the difficulty of doing so depends a lot on the power and what other limitations it has.

 

For example:

* An energy shield with 3 charges that lasts a turn per use is a lot more limited than one which lasts an hour per use. But if instead of charges it had gestures+incantations, the difference would be much less.

* On the other hand, invisibility where you have to incant audible once a minute is definitely more limited than doing so once an hour.

* Or flight that only lasts a minute an then takes a turn to re-activate, for instance.

* Life Support that requires any down-time is pretty limited, even if that's just a single phase every ten minutes.

[Christopher]

Re: Compound Power with limitations

 

An energy shield with 3 charges that lasts a turn per use is a lot more limited than one which lasts an hour per use. But if instead of charges it had gestures+incantations' date=' the difference would be much less.[/quote']

Actually taht would be an impossible combination. Charge set the Duration to 1 Phase. More needs Continous charges.

 

 

* On the other hand, invisibility where you have to incant audible once a minute is definitely more limited than doing so once an hour.

* Or flight that only lasts a minute an then takes a turn to re-activate, for instance.

* Life Support that requires any down-time is pretty limited, even if that's just a single phase every ten minutes.

I agree with that.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Compound Power with limitations

 

Reasoning from effect, this power temporarily enhances the character's abilities. That sounds more like Aid than direct purchase of the stats. So, say, 3d6+1 Aid, Standard Effect (10 points), an extra 7 things (+3 1/2 - allowing the defenses and the END/REC as a single element each). Maybe needs a Trigger and/or 0 END as well.

 

Apply a limitation (but not -2 1/2) for fading in full at PS 12, and then the Burnout or Side Effect limitation.

[Christopher]

Re: Compound Power with limitations

 

Reasoning from effect, this power temporarily enhances the character's abilities. That sounds more like Aid than direct purchase of the stats. So, say, 3d6+1 Aid, Standard Effect (10 points), an extra 7 things (+3 1/2 - allowing the defenses and the END/REC as a single element each). Maybe needs a Trigger and/or 0 END as well.

 

Apply a limitation (but not -2 1/2) for fading in full at PS 12, and then the Burnout or Side Effect limitation.

At least two Problems with that approach:

Some, but not all of the Characteristics are Defensive Characteristics.

Aid is what I would use to improove others. But for self improvement by a fixed amount just buying the Characteristics with Limitations makes much more sense.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Compound Power with limitations

 

True, there are some defensive ones. That means we don't need to treat PD/ED or REC/END as joint stats. 10 points standard bumps those up 5 as well. I'd probably allow a +5 total advantage for 10 additional elements, which would mean he takes DCV twice. Probably not perfectly book-legal, but a reasonable result. A limitation that he only gets the 10 point boost (ie he can't use it twice and get up to the maximum 19 he'd be eligible for based on the dice - or a limit he can only Aid himself once per turn) plus the self-only limitation, plus the "fades entirely after a turn" effect and it's probably a reasonable price.

 

I'm out of town so no books to check the price, but I recall discussing the AID issue in the SETAC days, and the intent was that Aid, Self Only would not cost more than just buying the stats directly.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Compound Power with limitations

 

This does sound like an Aid to me; the Time Limit seems like free points even with the Side Effect. If you want everything boosted by 10 points, just Aid the defensive powers twice. I do this with a character that accelerates time; his power looks like this:

 

Temporal Acceleration: 3d6 Aid, Standard Effect (+10pts), Expanded Effect (7 abilities total for +3 Advantage) to OCV, DCV (x2), DEX, SPD, REC (x2). Active: 72

 

For your power you would have:

 

3d6 Aid, Standard Effect (+10pts), Expanded Effect (15 abilities total for +7 Advantage) to OCV, DCV (x2), SPD, STR, Main Blast, END (x2), REC (x2), PD (x2), ED (x2), DEX. Side Effect (-½)

Active: 144. Real: 96

 

Here you are Aiding "15" abilities since the defensive ones count twice, giving the Expanded Effect advantage value of +7. A lenient GM will grant you the +4 advantage for "any number of abilities over 8" so the cost drops significantly to 90 Active and 60 Real points, but that is a lot to pack into a single Aid so I might be leery myself.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Compound Power with limitations

 

At least two Problems with that approach:

Some, but not all of the Characteristics are Defensive Characteristics.

Aid is what I would use to improove others. But for self improvement by a fixed amount just buying the Characteristics with Limitations makes much more sense.

 

How does it "make more sense"? Because it is cheaper and/or less limited? I don't think that is synonymous with making more sense...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Compound Power with limitations

 

Aid like Healing is built by default to work on others (Unlike Regeneration). Temporarily increasing personal stats has never had a clearly defined method (besides a few side cases like Force Field/Resistant Defense & Density Increase). I agree that Characteristics as Powers is probably the way to go. It just makes the final ability require special GM approval if you want to include it within a Framework.