You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

[Zen Archer]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Not in UltU. They thought he was whacked out and had him locked up.

 

I know. I should have specified the 616 Marvel Universe.

[phoenix240]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

The comparison I like to use is Artie and Leech vs. Thor. The former are hated and hunted while the latter is (mostly) left alone. Even though he claims to be a god.

 

In the minds of the general public of the mainstream Marvel U Jubilee is more terrifying and dangerous than the Hulk?

[Vulcan]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Yep, that's the way the Marvel Universe works.

 

Like I said, lazy writing.

[esampson]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

In the minds of the general public of the mainstream Marvel U Jubilee is more terrifying and dangerous than the Hulk?

No. She's more terrifying and dangerous than Thor, but that's because Thor is a recognized hero. If you're part of the general public you've got no reason to believe Thor is going to harm you and in fact you probably have faith that Thor is going to protect you from harm.

 

The Hulk and Thor may be in the same class, but they aren't interchangeable.

[Vulcan]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Let's compare Black Widow to Jubilee then. Both are relative unknowns to the general public - that is, if you live in the Marvel Universe you're unlikely to have heard much about either of them; Jubilee because she's an X-Man (a group not known for seeking out the spotlight), and Black Widow because she moonlights as a spy (another group not given to excess publicity).

 

And yet when Black Widow, in costume, provkes generally positive reactions - doubtless the figure under the costume helps . Jubliee, on the other hand, provkes fear and hatred even when she uses her powers to save the onlooker and they can, therefore, safely assume she's not there to harm them.

 

"The public hates mutants."

"Why? Well, there are mutant supervillains!"

"What about Doc Ock, or Loki, or Titanium Man, or the hundreds of other non-mutant supervillians? Of course they're bad, they're villians!"

"Why don't people fear Thor, or Mr. Fantasic, or Iron Man? They don't have to, those guys are heroes!"

"What about Cyclops and Storm? Of course the public hates them, they're mutants!"

"Who cares if they are heroes too, they're mutants..."

 

No internal logic or consistency at all. It. Does. Not. Make. Sense. Lazy writing, I tell you.

[esampson]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Human beings are not always logical or constant.

 

On average people are more afraid of flying than driving despite statistical evidence that shows that flying is safer in every statistically measurable way. As Agent K memorably said "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it."

 

You only have to look at the history of the past 15 years to see examples of how the actions of a small handful of extremists can influence general public sentiment against an entire group of people.

[Greywind]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Let's compare Black Widow to Jubilee then. Both are relative unknowns to the general public - that is, if you live in the Marvel Universe you're unlikely to have heard much about either of them; Jubilee because she's an X-Man (a group not known for seeking out the spotlight), and Black Widow because she moonlights as a spy (another group not given to excess publicity).

 

And yet when Black Widow, in costume, provkes generally positive reactions - doubtless the figure under the costume helps . Jubliee, on the other hand, provkes fear and hatred even when she uses her powers to save the onlooker and they can, therefore, safely assume she's not there to harm them.

 

"The public hates mutants."

"Why? Well, there are mutant supervillains!"

"What about Doc Ock, or Loki, or Titanium Man, or the hundreds of other non-mutant supervillians? Of course they're bad, they're villians!"

"Why don't people fear Thor, or Mr. Fantasic, or Iron Man? They don't have to, those guys are heroes!"

"What about Cyclops and Storm? Of course the public hates them, they're mutants!"

"Who cares if they are heroes too, they're mutants..."

 

No internal logic or consistency at all. It. Does. Not. Make. Sense. Lazy writing, I tell you.

Your basic argument is flawed.

 

Black Widow is known because she's an Avenger and former partner of Daredevil.

[phoenix240]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Human beings are not always logical or constant.

 

On average people are more afraid of flying than driving despite statistical evidence that shows that flying is safer in every statistically measurable way. As Agent K memorably said "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it."

 

You only have to look at the history of the past 15 years to see examples of how the actions of a small handful of extremists can influence general public sentiment against an entire group of people.

 

Good point. Sometimes audiences do expect more logic, rationality and consistency from human behavior in fiction than is evidenced in real life.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Human beings are not always logical or constant.

 

On average people are more afraid of flying than driving despite statistical evidence that shows that flying is safer in every statistically measurable way. As Agent K memorably said "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it."

 

You only have to look at the history of the past 15 years to see examples of how the actions of a small handful of extremists can influence general public sentiment against an entire group of people.

 

 

 

True, but Marvel's universe is a contemporary setting that has had 50 years' of change since the X-Men were published. Overt racism was much more common in the '60s, and while it was considered repellant by many, too many others agreed. Teh gay hadn't really become a movement until the Stonewall riots in 1969. Bullying was considered a matter for the children to figure out for themselves.

 

I think if the number of people that are completely freaked out when they suspect someone may be a mutant should be dialed way back. The isms X-Men were intended to reflect he attitudes of the day, which were along the lines of "We get a along fine, so long as they remember their place." The X-men would work better for me if, after 50 years, occasionally someone who isn't a mutant should throw the B.S. flag on mutant-haters. Of course, it's only recently that our own culture has begun to recognize the need for overtly condemn bullying, racism, etc.

[DShomshak]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

As others have mentioned, though, one big problem with the "Anti-Mutant Hysteria" trope has always been, "How do they know?" It's one thing if a mutant goes around saying, "Look, I'm a mutant!" or has otherwise become widely known as one, but lazy writers effectively gave every Tom, Dick and Harriet a Magic Mutant Detector.

 

At least one writer -- I forget who -- once had a character (Spider-Man?) meet a fellow who was being chased by a mutant-hating mob despite him yelling, "I'm not a mutant! I was in a lab accident!"

 

By the 1990s, though, it seemed to me that anti-mutant hysteria was no longer used as a parable for racism and other bigotries. Given that the X-Men and New Mutants were young, mostly good-looking, athletic, lived in a mansion and had super-powers on top of it all, I didn't think they had much to complain about compared to, say, just about anyone. It seemed to me the trope was now a metaphor for adolescent self-absorption -- a world full of stupid meanies who don't realize how *special* you are, when you understand everything so clearly and they don't, you care so much more, yadda yadda yadda...

 

It's one of the reasons I stopped following the X-titles, and, not long thereafter, all of Marvel. (That, and the inability ever to resolve a subplot. And other crappiness of writing that would e tedius to revisit.)

 

Dean Shomshak

[esampson]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

I agree that on one level our culture has improved regarding racism. For the most part someone who shows racism against an ethnic group based on old prejudices tends to be viewed as being behind the times and a throwback.

 

The backlash that occurred against Muslims in the time immediately following 9/11 however should be enough to illustrate that as a society we still have a long way to go.

 

Recall that time in the Marvel universe moves much slower than it does in the real world, so for the people of the Marvel universe it has only been a few short years since Onslaught wiped out the majority of non-mutant heroes (who granted, came back), that the Legacy virus was ravaging the mutant population (which various people called an act of God while many others were worried about it jumping from mutants to humans), and the last time Magneto threatened to take over the world.

 

Adding onto all of that it should be remembered that a lot of these mutants actually are dangerous. There have been plenty of stories written about young mutants wiping out their families and friends and even entire communities when their powers emerge.

 

Is it lazy writing that people in the Marvel universe are afraid of mutants? I don't really think so. I'm a very progressive and tolerant person but I think that even I would be somewhat worried living in a world with a people where several times a year there is a massive loss of life laid at their feet, whether by the intent of their terrorists or simply by accident.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

I agree that on one level our culture has improved regarding racism. For the most part someone who shows racism against an ethnic group based on old prejudices tends to be viewed as being behind the times and a throwback.

 

The backlash that occurred against Muslims in the time immediately following 9/11 however should be enough to illustrate that as a society we still have a long way to go.

 

Recall that time in the Marvel universe moves much slower than it does in the real world, so for the people of the Marvel universe it has only been a few short years since Onslaught wiped out the majority of non-mutant heroes (who granted, came back), that the Legacy virus was ravaging the mutant population (which various people called an act of God while many others were worried about it jumping from mutants to humans), and the last time Magneto threatened to take over the world.

 

Adding onto all of that it should be remembered that a lot of these mutants actually are dangerous. There have been plenty of stories written about young mutants wiping out their families and friends and even entire communities when their powers emerge.

 

Is it lazy writing that people in the Marvel universe are afraid of mutants? I don't really think so. I'm a very progressive and tolerant person but I think that even I would be somewhat worried living in a world with a people where several times a year there is a massive loss of life laid at their feet, whether by the intent of their terrorists or simply by accident.

 

You may have brought this whole issue into focus for me. Your example of the crowd chasing the guy they had falsely accused of being a mutant reminded me so much of the recent incident where that guy attacked a Sikh Gurdwara, apparently because they wore turbans and therefore could only be Muslim terrorists!

 

It only takes a few fanatics to put some people into a panic. I still think Marvel's universe has way more mutant-fearing members of the general public than warranted by the circumstances. Their political effects may be disproportionate, because fanatics will spend more time, money and effort to root out whatever "evil" they are against than most other groups (with no offense intended to any monomaniacs with a work-ethic who may be reading this ).

[Tech]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

No, I don't think they're crazy because they wear a costume. There are so many types of comics nowadays, I'll paint a response with a broad stroke. If you have a superpower and intend to fight crime, there are criminals you may fight against that may try to hunt you down, possibly even the government. Wearing a costume protects your identity.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

No' date=' I don't think they're crazy because they wear a costume. There are so many types of comics nowadays, I'll paint a response with a broad stroke. If you have a superpower and intend to fight crime, there are criminals you may fight against that may try to hunt you down, possibly even the government. Wearing a costume protects your identity.[/quote']

 

It's not just that heroes and villains wear costumes. The general public takes the costume in stride without question. Having known some extremely uptight people in my time, most of whom appeared perfectly normal unless aroused, I find it odd that not once in the history of scantily-dressed superheroines has an outraged elderly church-lady approached one (either in or out of combat) to tell her she's half-naked and should be ashamed to be seen in public in such revealing clothing (I suspect they do not watch gymnastics for this reason, at least, without the curtains drawn.) Stuff like that.

[phoenix240]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

It's not just that heroes and villains wear costumes. The general public takes the costume in stride without question. Having known some extremely uptight people in my time' date=' most of whom appeared perfectly normal unless aroused, I find it odd that not once in the history of scantily-dressed superheroines has an outraged elderly church-lady approached one (either in or out of combat) to tell her she's half-naked and should be ashamed to be seen in public in such revealing clothing (I suspect they do not watch gymnastics for this reason, at least, without the curtains drawn.) Stuff like that.[/quote']

 

I recall this happening to a couple of superheroes, Power Girl for one, IIRC but I couldn't quote a specific incident so I might be making stuff up.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

I recall this happening to a couple of superheroes' date=' Power Girl for one, IIRC but I couldn't quote a specific incident so I might be making stuff up. [/quote']

 

My theory is that it flies because it's "Tradition" by now. ISTR thinking to myself that Circus performers, as portrayed in the movies, includes many women whose job is to dress in very little n(by the standards of the day) and look lovely. This is not something teenage boys would think anyone in their right mind should object to, so the primary audience never noticed when the traditions were established.

 

If, as in the earliest superhero comics, Supers may have begin dressing in colorful costumes because these sort of clothes, worn by gymnasts, boxers, circus performers, and other athletes, promise modesty (by the standards of the day) while not compromising mobility (ever try gymnastics in a 3-piece suit?) without regard to secret identities or recognisability. Likewise, the public may just accept that these individuals might require clothing that's especially well-suited for great physical exertion or activity, and thus might be accepted as appropriate wear for "mystery men", and thus become, in short order, a non-issue (except for the identity concealment issue).

 

RE: the anti-mutant vibe in Marvel. In the non-fiction world, activist groups who operate clandestinely tend to draw suspicion pretty well. Anonymous might be a loose analogue for the X-Men, but many view them as a dangerous loose cannon. Likewise, the KKK and other domestic terrorist organizations were viewed by some as being heroic. It's as if since Anonymous is made ip of "people who use computers" (hackers), then everyone who may use a computer is suspect, and if you don't know they own a computer, what if they have one anyway?

 

ITRW, there should be a mix of responses, ranging from immediate acceptance to hatred, with the majority residing right in the middle, unless the Mutant in question poses an obvious threat. I suspect most mutant powers are about as impressive as the "Lighting Farts on Fire" stunt was when I was a teenager, and about as threatening. If there are so few mutants, why is it an issue for more than the few wound so tightly they can't ignore it? Most folks would not interrupt their restaurant meal to grab torches and pitchforks because "George" over at the next table doesn't look "quite human". At worst, most would just ask for the check and leave, possibly after making rude remarks. The "Lazy writers" syndrome at Marvel has all the earmarks of being a successful formula that they are afraid to depart from for fear of diminishing the flow if money.

[Greywind]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

I've had characters have commentary directed at them, sometimes as a dressing down from a church lady about dressing less provocatively. Usually it's a comedic moment type of thing.

[Doctor Agenda]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

I think mutants represent something beyond themselves that's fundamentally different from most people with powers. 'It's midnight. Do you know what your children are?'

 

They are homo superior. Each one is a reminder that homo sapiens is on the way out. In the long run, it's them or us. Demographic trends say the USA will be majority mutant by 2060, it'll be too late to stop them then! Who is more likely to take your job, an Avenger or a Morlock who can see in the dark or do the work of a forklift?

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

I think mutants represent something beyond themselves that's fundamentally different from most people with powers. 'It's midnight. Do you know what your children are?'

 

They are homo superior. Each one is a reminder that homo sapiens is on the way out. In the long run, it's them or us. Demographic trends say the USA will be majority mutant by 2060, it'll be too late to stop them then! Who is more likely to take your job, an Avenger or a Morlock who can see in the dark or do the work of a forklift?

 

I get that logic propaganda. I reject the notion that as many people as have been told that this is the truth, some people know that you can't just condemn an entire group for the actions of a few bad actors. If the X-men are the only heroes opposed to Magneto, wouldn't it cast a pall of suspicion that no other prominent group of superbeings seems to have objected? Why haven't the relatives and friends of mutants gathered in the same way as has been done with LGBT groups? I would expect the Marvel universe to have a slightly larger supply of decent people than are in evidence even as background story.

 

"I've known Bob all my life! If he's a mutant, he's not like those other ones, he's an okay guy!"

 

Insert any ethnicity for the word "mutant" above. Do you like it any better? Then what makes you think groups of decent people wouldn't organize in defense of people who just might be a national asset, and maybe your son or daughter you love very dearly? In Marvel's X-Men dimension, the possibility that one's child may be a mutant is repeatedly portrayed as being fraught with danger. Good parents keep mum about it. Others disown their children.

 

Dad: "Pack your bags, Marge, we're abandoning the kids!"

 

Mom: "What? are you crazy?!?"

 

Dad: "They're mutants!"

 

Mom: "Forget the luggage. It'll just slow us down!"

[SteveZilla]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Heh. I'm just amused by all the "Gaining powers twisted his mind" statements in supervillain origin stories (it's practically a refrain in Champions: Villains I' date=' II and III).[/quote']

 

"I used to be a Normal like you, but then I gained powers that twisted my mind."

 

To return to the Doctor Destroyer example, he isn't crazy because he wants to conquer the world. He's crazy because he keeps trying to conquer the world through one grand gesture of overwhelming power. It's not hard to think of other, slower plans that would have a better chance of success.

 

I would add that he is also crazy because he believes he should/has to conquer the world. To answer a previous poster: Yes, he is still a megalomaniac despite being able to back it up with power(s).

[Doctor Agenda]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

It's exactly how Muslims are treated regarding bad actors, and too often how parents treat their gay children, minus the fear their son will fry their brains with his super powers. Propaganda works, there are people who devote all their efforts to scaring people about minorities in the land of the free, and it has a very successful track record. "I don't care if Muslims are less than 3% of theUS population, we've got to ban them immigrating or they'll impose Sharia law!"

[Lord Liaden]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Finally, Istvatha V'han does not seem to be insane, in that she can still make meaningful choices and can tell what's real and what's not. She's not crazy in that she doesn't seem to have any major delusions. She's just very, very ambitious. (At least, going by the information in Conquerors, Killers and Crooks and CV: Master Villains.) Considering her success so far, her ambitions do not even seem unrealistic.

 

Whether Istavatha V'han is evil depends on your view of unprovoked aggression and conquest. Most people through most of human history thought this was just fine, as long as they were doing the aggressing and conquering. She's adversarial, and that's enough.

 

What's most interesting to me about V'han is what she does with the near-absolute power she has achieved, as described in Book Of The Empress: namely, rule well. She's extraordinarily practical, competent, and dedicated when it comes to administering her vast territory and horde of subjects, and seems genuinely invested in their welfare. Although she can be utterly ruthless to those who oppose her, the great majority of those who have submitted to her rule experience a noticeable increase in peace, prosperity, and quality of life. She has no tolerance for her people being unnecessarily abused or threatened, and her wrath at corrupt officials in her government is legendary.

 

It's actually remarkable that Istvatha did not become more mentally unstable after discovering her ability to move through time and to other dimensions, and whole alternate versions of her own universe; not to mention accidentally erasing her entire family from ever having existed.

[Clonus]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

I get that logic propaganda. I reject the notion that as many people as have been told that this is the truth, some people know that you can't just condemn an entire group for the actions of a few bad actors. If the X-men are the only heroes opposed to Magneto, wouldn't it cast a pall of suspicion that no other prominent group of superbeings seems to have objected?

 

The Avengers fight Magneto. That how Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch ended up as a Avengers.

 

 

Why haven't the relatives and friends of mutants gathered in the same way as has been done with LGBT groups?

 

Well, there is something awkward about mutantcy. It's this:

 

Accidental origins first manifest their powers while recovering from kind of accident, usually as adults.

Constructs are built with their powers and usually the knowledge of how to use them

Experiments usually gain their powers in the context of an organization and are trained in how to use them before the public ever sees them.

Aliens were raised by people with the same powers and once again arrive as mature adults.

 

Mutants on the other hand tend to manifest their powers as adolescents in the grip of strong emotion. If you think about it, you can see why they might have a slightly higher than average chance of doing something that alienates their parents and school chums.

[Greywind]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

As I recall it, Wanda saw something in a newspaper and the two of them came to America to join. Under Cap's leadership he ended up with Wanda, Pietro and Hawkeye. One legend and three questionable figures with shady pasts.

 

In fact I believe their joining the Avengers was their second appearance.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps!

 

Yes, but when it comes to parents with mutant kids, I would expect them to either advocate on their child's behalf or the very least try to help the kid keep it under wraps so he doesn't get killed by an angry mob unless they're just stupid and have never been exposed to western civilization before. Maybe your parents were that shallow, but not everyone's are. If it's happening to kids (and when you get older everyone else is "kids", especially teenagers) most responsible adults will not advocate for the genocide of all kids with super abilities. In the marvel Universe, parents, with few exceptions treat "Mom, Dad? I'm a mutant." as being functionally equivalent to "Your whole life with me has been a lie. You thought you were raising a child to continue family name and traditions and give you grandchildren. What stands before you is an evil twin of the child you thought you were raising. All those years of love and devotion were wasted on an evil being who should never have existed. Any grandkids that result will be abominations. Stop me before I reproduce."