Everyman VPPs

[The Main Man]

This is something that just popped in there and I think it is onto something so I figure I ought to share it to hopefully get a stronger overall concept out of my fellow HEROphiles.

 

It starts with a seeming incongruity between HERO and comic book writing. In comic books, characters simply do as the writer dictates; no fuss. HERO, on the other hand, is a different breed. Since powers are built and bought with points, it tends towards itemization of a character's abilities with the common result being character sheet bloat.

 

How does one bridge the two to bring that comic book element into HERO system? I think I have at least the beginning of an answer: Everyman VPPs. Every character has limited access to a free VPP to pull off various tricks within their defined SFX. This should be simple for many characters: Bricks get a "Brick Tricks" VPP; Speedsters get a "Speedster Tricks" VPP; and so on.

 

Each VPP has a Pool and Control cost equal to the campaign's Active Point limit. They are base line VPPs, so characters must buy an appropriate Skill and take Full Phase actions to change out powers. I think characters can have access to No Skill Required and Powers Can Be Changed as a 0 Phase Action, but they must pay for those.

 

This comes with one catch though: it costs 1 Heroic Action Point per use of any power in the VPP. I think it's a fair tradeoff that boosts the value of a separate mechanic.

 

 

Now, all that said, here are some complications within the idea I considered, and you may think of more:

1) What becomes of classic characters like Gadgeteers or Mystics who often use VPPs in the first place?

 

2) On the other hand, what about SFX that don't lend themselves to versatility? Could these VPPs be sold off like Everyman Skills?

 

3) Similarly, what about characters who have multiple SFX? How does a flying brick with eye lasers cope?

 

4) How does this balance against MPs and VPPs normally bought by characters?

 

 

That's it for now. I look forward to everyone's responses.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Everyman VPPs

 

Before I attempt a response ... what the heck is a Heroic Action Point?

[Opale]

Re: Everyman VPPs

 

Same question here ^^

 

Heroic Actionned Opale

[psyber624]

Re: Everyman VPPs

 

See 6e2 287, basically its a metagame element common in other RPG's, but from what ive been hearing it may be new to Hero with 6e. As an optional rule, you get a certain amount of HAP's that you can then use in a variety of ways to allow your characters to succeed when dice say they fail, at the most basic level, also used to have other random occurances turn up in the characters favor.

 

Personally I always liked the concept, but i know several that truly hate it.

 

As far as the "Everyman VPP's" go there the Skill: Power, when used in games with a flexible GM, should allow you to do basically the same thing as your everyman VPP within reason. It is defined as being mainly for using power tricks, as long as they make sense. (it is also used for powers that require a roll to work). I guess it falls under the heading of "you shouldnt have to point out EVERYTHING". And if its something you want to be able to do all the time anyway, you should have to pay points for it just like anyone else.

 

Of course to each their own, if you like Everyman VPP's, nothing stopping you from using them when you GM

 

Edit: I will say this tho, Comics and RPG's ARE a different breed. Your right, writers in comic books can just have their characters do whatever they want, whenever they want, since they are in total control. Realize that the writers control EVERY ASPECT of the story and so they can ensure that the powers are only there for dramatic effect, and are not used to trivialize every encounter imaginable.

In an RPG however, players are not in total control. GM's arent really in TOTAL control either. You are working together to create a story, and giving a player the ability to do pretty much anything they can think of whenever they want throws things such as game balance out the window. There is a place for that kind of thing, of course. Its called Storytelling RPGs (or diceless) and some people prefer it.

[The Main Man]

Re: Everyman VPPs

 

1. Heroic Action Points were introduced in Pulp HERO (5e) and now are in the 6e core rules.

 

2. I'm quite the fan of such RPG systems, actually, with Risus and Fudge at the top of my list. The way I see it, HERO is the anomaly of my favorite systems. As a toolkit though, it provides the tools necessary to express almost any ability, and I believe that Everyman VPPs are a way to tap into that flexibility while retaining the "language of HERO." It really becomes a sort of controlled madness - your hero gets a lot of flexibility here, but can't go overboard.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Everyman VPPs

 

While I applaud your idea, I think you are making it overly complicated, because VPP are a potential can of worms. For some builds, a VPP is the best way to go, but most characters don't need them.

 

Just have everyone buy a Power Skill of the appropriate sort which should cover this sort of thing. They can use Hero Action Points to modify the roll if they like, or you can require that they use 1 HAP for every 15 Active points of effect they want or something similar. That allows some creative thinking and flavor from the players without things getting out of hand with VPPs.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Everyman VPPs

 

What I do is, I let the Power Skill be used to buy powers in mid-game. You take a penalty for of -1 for every 10 Real points (pre-framework mods) in whatever it is you're trying to do, so taking limitations on it makes the roll easier; if you succeed, then you just bought yourself that new 'emergency power' you needed. I let people go into 'XP debt' for this, though usually it's not an issue; my players usually wind up with a few XP sitting around.

[Opale]

Re: Everyman VPPs

 

I tend to prefer the power skill choice too, with the obligation for the player to NEVER use a power created on the raw twice. If he wants it, he buys it. Period.

In a way, Power Skill is a way for the player to use his power in a surprising and brilliant way, so I tend to not be too evil with the difficulty, because for a 60 AP power, it's a -6 skill roll. Not much a chance to succeed...

 

Power Skilled Opale.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Everyman VPPs

 

In a way' date=' Power Skill is a way for the player to use his power in a surprising and brilliant way, so I tend to not be too evil with the difficulty, because for a 60 AP power, it's a -6 skill roll. Not much a chance to succeed...[/quote']

 

That, I think, is the big concern. That said, we could simply adopt a rule that, in this game, Powers typically top out at 70 AP, and all characters are considered to have Power Skill (Own Powers) 17- so, at the top end, they have a 50/50 chance.

 

You want to buy up the roll? 2 points per +1.

 

You want it to be harder/easier in general? Reduce/increase the base roll.

 

You want to encourage limitations on these unusual power uses? Base the penalty on real points after those limitations you wish to allow.

 

You can only do it once? Hard cap. You want it discouraged, but not prohibited? Apply a penalty to repeat uses (maybe one that fades with time between uses if it's OK to use these powers multiple times, just very infrequently). Require HAP spending for repeat uses. Require spending 1 xp for each repeat use (maybe when you spend enough xp to pay for the power, you get to add it to your sheet, or maybe those xp are just lost forever). You can use it as often as you like? Well, now we're almost back to that VPP - with the skill tossed in for free - but it's your game, so run it as you see fit!

 

Lots of options exist. Maybe the base skill roll is set at 10 + 1/10 of the character's most similar power, or his highest AP power, or it's a straight INT, EGO or other characteristic roll, or otherwise modified by a characteristic you want to have more impact (maybe mOCV if your players like to sell it back because "it's useless for non-mentalists").

 

This seems like a great topic for a future APG. It could work well for a "magic on the fly" system as well.

[hancock.tom]

Re: Everyman VPPs

 

In my experience, a VPP does not reduce character sheet bloat, but in fact will increase it - people start carrying around lists of the stuff they might buy with the VPP

[Steve]

Re: Everyman VPPs

 

I might suggest using Heroic Action Points as the "fuel" which enables use of the Power skill for abilities not on a character sheet instead of adding a VPP. The cost would be several points, maybe five. That might be a steep enough cost to cap usage, especially since HAPs are useful for so many things. If something goes over a character's other abilities in Active Points, maybe an additional 1 HAP/5 Active Points over a characer's normal limits.

 

 

Just my thoughts on the matter.

[psyber624]

Re: Everyman VPPs

 

What I like about the power skill option is it lets the player decide how "good" he is with his power. New character that barely knows how to use it? Fam 8- (so no power tricks are EVERY likely to occur). Really skilled with it? Buy up your base roll (-6 will never succeed on an 11-, has a decent chance on an 18-, and becomes practically a given on 22-) So if you want to be able to constantly come up with clever tricks, buy your Power Skill really high. Otherwise dont and hope for the best (or use HAP's to make that "never gonna happen" roll suddenly work).

 

I also gotta say I REALLY like Hugh's suggestion of 1 xp per subsequent use, which goes towards buying the power, ie if you keep doing it over and over again your basically trying to get the power for free, but spending xp on it means your actually trying to LEARN how to use your power like that.

[esampson]

Re: Everyman VPPs

 

In my experience' date=' a VPP does not reduce character sheet bloat, but in fact will increase it - people start carrying around lists of the stuff they might buy with the VPP[/quote']

I've never really viewed VPPs as devices to reduce character sheet bloat. I've always thought they were really there for effects that might be impractical to model through more conventional means (such as power mimicry).

[Cassandra]

Re: Everyman VPPs

 

Maybe a VPP Pool is the advantage of being the member of a group. It can be used for Healing, Transportation, and Life Support, things that most heroes don't have access to normally.

[Quislet3000]

Re: Everyman VPPs

 

How does this apply to NPCs and Villains? Do they get access to the un-purchased power stunt that may foil the PCs? How do you handle the PC that complains, "The GM is just pulling stuff out of the air because that characters never been able to do that before."?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Everyman VPPs

 

How does this apply to NPCs and Villains? Do they get access to the un-purchased power stunt that may foil the PCs?

 

Do you want them to? Make the choice that works best for your game. Seems to me that it can be consistent for both sides (my preference) or only available to PC's, or only available to some NPC's. Regardless, I suspect the GM, running the entire world, will use this much less commonly than players running a single character each.

 

How do you handle the PC that complains' date=' "The GM is just pulling stuff out of the air because that characters never been able to do that before."?[/quote']

 

You could remind him of the PC's ability (probably utilized) to do similar things. Is this different from that character having an ability on his character sheet that he's not used previously, or having paid for the Power Skill?

 

I, personally, like the response "Yes, it certainly does seem surprising, doesn't it?" If the player wants to be a PITA about it, that might be followed with "Your obvious surprise clearly indicates he should get an extra 2d6 PRE attack bonus for that action", probably solely against that character but maybe against the team as a whole.

 

Ultimately, if you believe the GM is out to screw you over, you should probably just leave the game anyway, since the GM has more than sufficient tools, with or without this Power Skill, to screw you over.

[Arkham]

Re: Everyman VPPs

 

How does this apply to NPCs and Villains? Do they get access to the un-purchased power stunt that may foil the PCs? How do you handle the PC that complains' date=' "The GM is just pulling stuff out of the air because that characters never been able to do that before."?[/quote']

 

Why would it apply to NPCs? If I find the villain lacking a slot in their multipower that it would make sense for them to have, even if it wasn't there already, I'll add it. Players get to practice their powers every session and figure out what they need. Villains only make a handful of appearances at the most, so you do what you have to in order to flesh them out.