Fantasy Hero Companion: Heavy Fighters

[IndianaJoe3]

I'm (slowly) working on a supplement for Fantasy Hero called Fantasy Hero Companion. It is intended to help novice players and GMs easily create balanced characters and campaigns. I will include several mini-settings (smilar to those in the back of 6e 2, each for a different fantasy sub-genre), magic systems, monsters, and character archetype templates (similar to those in the superhero gallery section of Champions).

 

I've just completed the first template, for heavy fighters, and I'm looking for feedback. Does one category or another have too many points, or need more? Should there be more Powers or Complications? (Probably.) Should I use up all the available points, or leave some for customization?

 

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[Portland Barbie]

Re: Fantasy Hero Companion: Heavy Fighters

 

Any chance you could post the write-up/Template on here for those of us who don't have HERO Designer?

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Fantasy Hero Companion: Heavy Fighters

 

Done. I apologize for the lack of formatting, but there doesn't seem to be an easy way to export prefabs in HD.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Fantasy Hero Companion: Heavy Fighters

 

I've just completed the first template' date=' for heavy fighters, and I'm looking for feedback. Does one category or another have too many points, or need more? Should there be more Powers or Complications? (Probably.) Should I use up all the available points, or leave some for customization?[/quote']

 

It isn't (or shouldn't be) an either-or proposition. For playable PCs room for customization is essential. Cookie-cutter characters go against the philosophical underpinnings of Hero. For some NPCs, though, who the PCs won't be dealing with all that much other than fighting them, you can get away with a standard character.

 

This isn't (or at least shouldn't be) a game where your character is utterly defined by his profession. It's important, certainly, as it determines in large part his role in the party -- but it isn't the be-all and end-all. Different Heavy Fighters will often be VERY different in several important ways.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Fantasy Hero Companion: Heavy Fighters

 

It isn't (or shouldn't be) an either-or proposition. For playable PCs room for customization is essential. Cookie-cutter characters go against the philosophical underpinnings of Hero. For some NPCs' date=' though, who the PCs won't be dealing with all that much other than fighting them, you can get away with a standard character.[/quote']

 

Oh, I agree. I just think we're approaching this from different directions. I'm asking, "Can a complete novice use this to create a playable, balanced character in 15 minutes?"

[Portland Barbie]

Re: Fantasy Hero Companion: Heavy Fighters

 

To be honest, looking at the template, and the options, I'd say it's way too constricting. Yeah, I can understand that It may be written with new comers to HERO in mind, but it's too cookie-cutter. As said above, part of the appeal of HERO is the idea of being able to make a unique customized character no matter what genre or type of game being run.

 

Personally, I would suggest, slimming it down to just the base "standards" - those that would apply to every fighter of the type, then sit down with the players one-on-one (or even back and forth through email/texts/etc.) and discuss what the concept they have for their character is, and show them how they can do it using the system.

 

Writing up detailed templates like this run the risk of making the player think it's typical, and falling into the "class" template that many other systems use.

 

Having said that, I can see taking the time to write-up "standard power" that members of various classes may have, as a time-saver or simply examples of how to build abilities, but not including them as parts of a template, unless all characters of that type would have the *same* ability, with the same mechanics behind it.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Fantasy Hero Companion: Heavy Fighters

 

Here's an example: say you want to be able to cleave a tree/pole/etc in two with a single blow of your sword (if it's a small enough tree -- I don't think a giant redwood would do it). There are several uses for such an ability: it can be really intimidating, it can give the goblin hiding in the branches a huge surprise, and so forth. It also implies that you are very strong.

 

So let's try building something like that. You could simply make it an application of a very high STR plus a suitable level of skill with the weapon. If you primarily want to intimidate you can build it as a Presence attack (and add other sword tricks to it). If you want to model its affect on the tree you can make it extra HKA dice against wood (reducing the defense and body of the wooden object and enabling you to also cleave wooden tables and the like). You could do it as a Change Environment effect. Any number of ways.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Fantasy Hero Companion: Heavy Fighters

 

I see no problem with creating a Template, as long as the Template itself is customizable and not too generic. I would concentrate a lot less on characteristics and would use the approach taken by the 5th and previous editions (via Package Deals) and create a list of possible skills for said profession. Lets take the "Heavy Fighter" you created as an example:

 

Heavy Fighter:

+5 STR (5)

WF: Common Melee Weapons (2), Breakfall (3), Fast Draw (3), PS-Fighter (2), Survival (3), Tactics (3)

Choose 2 skills (6 points) from the following: Animal Handler (3), Climbing (3), Navigation (3), Riding (3), Tracking (3), Weaponsmith (3)

Choose 2 skills (6 points) from the following: +1 Combat Skill Level w/Favored Weapon class (3), Teamwork (3), Defense Maneuver 1 (3), Penalty Skill Level vs Armor Maneuver penalties (3)

33 points.

Optional:

Martial Arts (10) choose 10 points worth of Martial Maneuvers

Talent: Toughness: 2pts Physical Damage Resistance (2)

Talent: Weapon Master: +1 Damage Class to Hand to Hand Weapons (5) OAF (-1) 3pts

Talent: Irresistible Blow: Armor Piercing Naked Advantage for up to 40 active points (10) OAF (-1) x2 End (-1/2) 4pts

Talent: Shield Mastery: +1 Combat Skill Level with Sheilds (3), Missile Deflection vs projectiles (15) OAF (-1) 10pts

 

What this Template does is it allows a character to create a fighter type character that has the essential skills for being a "Heavy Warrior", but provides enough options to customize the character to the players desire. You can create an expert with heavy weapons, built to do high damage, or you can build a warrior who wears heavy armor to absorb damage for his/her comrades. You can create a fighter with an emphasis on survival skills or you can create a character built with Formation Fighting in mind. Lots of options in there to play with.

[Portland Barbie]

Re: Fantasy Hero Companion: Heavy Fighters

 

Oh' date=' I agree. I just think we're approaching this from different directions. I'm asking, "Can a complete novice use this to create a playable, balanced character in 15 minutes?"[/quote']

 

To be fair, can experienced HEROphiles create a playable, balanced character in 15 minutes? (Without relying on old "standby" abilities.)

[Old Man]

Re: Fantasy Hero Companion: Heavy Fighters

 

I can create a playable, minmaxed character in 15 minutes. If you want it to be balanced it'll take longer as I'll have to fight my inner munchkin.

 

Seriously though, tank fighters with no martial arts are pretty easy if only because the primary differences are going to be the noncombat skills and the disads. A knight, a mercenary, and Conan are all going to look pretty similar in terms of stats and levels. 18-17-18-18-13-13-15-10, spd 3, is about 80 points, 4 melee combat levels is another 20, 10 three-point skills is another 30, and then you can waste the next 20 on nollidge skills and perks after the session starts. Large shield should counter the DCV penalty for 6 DEF mail head to toe, choose sword or axe, I still have eight minutes to figure out the disads.

 

Of course, this is unfair since I've been playing FH since it came out and I have had some practice at building characters. And that's because I've had a lot of practice getting them killed...

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Fantasy Hero Companion: Heavy Fighters

 

I just realized that I hadn't set any points aside for racial templates. Back to Ye Olde Drawing Board...

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Fantasy Hero Companion: Heavy Fighters

 

I just realized that I hadn't set any points aside for racial templates. Back to Ye Olde Drawing Board...

 

A Dwarf Heavy Fighter might look very different from a Human Heavy Fighter, who in turn would be different from an Orc Heavy Fighter. (Who could be a formidable adversary and a surprise to players who think Orcs are not "real" threats on an individual basis).

 

In fact, having an Orc strong, powerful and skilled enough to be a challenge one-on-one to a PC would be interesting. Perhaps "Orcish Champions" would lead many warbands, or would be important parts of them. Perhaps the strongest young Orcs become such champions to prove themselves powerful enough to be leaders in the dog-eat-dog world of the Orcs.

 

I also am thinking about fantasy-world equivalents of Goliath, the Philistine warrior in the Old Testament who so terrified the Israelites. He'd be built on even more points, and be an almost superhuman threat whose mere presence intimidates large numbers of enemies. The terror he spreads, in fact, could be substantially greater than his actual impact of the battlefield.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Fantasy Hero Companion: Heavy Fighters

 

I just realized that I hadn't set any points aside for racial templates. Back to Ye Olde Drawing Board...

 

Looking back at your original post, you asked if you should leave some points for customization. The answer is YES. Always leave some points for customization. Racial Templates can be a part of that.

[Jas]

Re: Fantasy Hero Companion: Heavy Fighters

 

Late to the party, I know, but my take is a little different as I was considering something like this myself, in the vein of Dungeon Fantasy from the GURPS line of products.

 

I own that I was surprised to see so many powers assocaited with a heavy fighter. To my mind, that character has skills aplenty, maybe some combat talents as appropriate to the genre, and solidly high physical stats.

 

I think I'd have approached the increased penetration, increased damage, and increased accuracy by way of CV modifiers and martial arts, going so far as to build a generic heavy fighter tradition to pull from when designing the suite of maneuvers available to the fighter, rather than trying to mimic the desired effect using powers. Likely more cost effective in the long run.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Fantasy Hero Companion: Heavy Fighters

 

A beginning character will never have enough points for everything he feels the archetype needs. GURPS may not be the best exemplar -- the power creep in the Fourth Edition is so serious that they didn't even try to set a standard starting value for PCs and build any templates or examples within it.

 

Still, one could build several different Hero templates for heavy fighters based on the needs of the campaign. As has been mentioned, two heavy fighters are very different from each other. One type is the prototypical basher, applying brute force to every problem he encounters. Another is the war captain using his leadership, charisma and tactical acumen to lead an army from the front. There are many, many others.

[Jas]

A beginning character will never have enough points for everything he feels the archetype needs. GURPS may not be the best exemplar -- the power creep in the Fourth Edition is so serious that they didn't even try to set a standard starting value for PCs and build any templates or examples within it.

 

That's actually exactly what SJG did in the first Dungeon Fantasy PDF - they took a 250 point level for "bad ass, over the top heroes" and made templates, with plenty of room for customization within the template, for all of the D&D-style archetypes.

[Portland Barbie]

Re: Fantasy Hero Companion: Heavy Fighters

 

That's actually exactly what SJG did in the first Dungeon Fantasy PDF - they took a 250 point level for "bad ass' date=' over the top heroes" and made templates, with plenty of room for customization within the template, for all of the D&D-style archetypes.[/quote']

 

Interestingly enough, I'm currently working on conversions of that series for my own "Dungeon HERO" game . . . and yeah, there was a set point cost for each template, but it did include multiple options within the template, and even notes at the end for how to customize the template to fit certain "standbys" for each archetype.

[Trencher]

Re: Fantasy Hero Companion: Heavy Fighters

 

I suggest you call "heavy fighter" Warrior and "light fighter" fighter.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Fantasy Hero Companion: Heavy Fighters

 

The term "Heavy Warrior/Fighter" is pretty generic. We can probably come up with terms for different types of heavy fighters and the abilities they are most known for. Example, Knight or Chevalier. They are a Heavy Warrior that specializes in mounted combat, heavy armor and leadership in battle.

The Samurai would be another Heavy Warrior similar to the Knight, but adding mounted archery to the list of skills.

A Barbarian would be a type of Heavy Warrior that wore light to medium armor (eschewing the heavier armors of the Knight or Samurai) but would wield heavy weapons such as the Long Spear, Broadsword or larger (such as a Claymore) and most especially a heavy axe (large 2-handed axes are popular amongst this type of warrior) and preferring the use of a shield as defense. A good example of this type of warrior being a Celtic warrior, Viking warrior or Mongolian warrior.

A formation soldier would be another type of Heavy Warrior, though while they may not wield traditionally heavy weapons, or wear traditionally heavy armor (they might though), they are trained extensively for combat fighting alongside their comrades and to utilize their superior numbers to their advantage. I consider this a type of heavy warrior. They typically wield spear and shield, though other types of weapons are not unknown. Swords are usually a backup weapon for when the fighting turns into a melee and formation tactics are no longer possible. Examples are Hoplites such as the Trojans and Spartans.

[Greywind]

Re: Fantasy Hero Companion: Heavy Fighters

 

At the simplest it denoted the type of armor worn. Nothing else.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Fantasy Hero Companion: Heavy Fighters

 

At the simplest it denoted the type of armor worn. Nothing else.

 

You don't find that simplistic in the extreme?

[Greywind]

Re: Fantasy Hero Companion: Heavy Fighters

 

No. Lighter units were usually faster being unencumbered.

[Trencher]

Re: Fantasy Hero Companion: Heavy Fighters

 

You cant call them knight or samurai for they especially the samurai in the later periods fought without armour as well it is a social class as well as a warrior caste.

Using a generic term in game for showing the differences in fighting styles is not a prefect solution but its better with a little flavor than nothing. I strongly suggest you do not use a technically sounding term like heavy fighter when you are trying to sell your game to your players, at least use heavy infantryman or heavy infantry fighter. It gotta sound cool.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Fantasy Hero Companion: Heavy Fighters

 

Well, "infantry" also has a specific meaning (foot soldier). I guess that, "armored warrior" is as good a term as any.

[Portland Barbie]

Re: Fantasy Hero Companion: Heavy Fighters

 

The term issue is a good example of the negative aspects of trying to create an extremely detailed package, as was done in the OP. Many players would perceive the term "heavy fighter/warrior" differently, and assume it allowed them the type of warrior they wanted. In this example, I believe Killer Shrike has some good examples on his website, where you start off with a simple, generic template (say one that focuses on STR, CON, and STUN/BODY, with a small "standardized" skill list, which is added to by additional templates (like one focusing on lighter armor and heavy weapons, a second on lighter weapons and heavier armors, and a third on lighter weapons with reach and medium armors specializing in mounted combat). All three of these could qualify as a heavy fighter, but will vary widely in their stats, as each focuses on a completely different combat style.

 

Yes, this may cause the player to spend as many points as a single detailed template may cost, but it does allow for more customization (and this concept could be included in a single template with multiple "select one of the following" options).