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Thia Halmades

Persona: The Fighting/RPG

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So I thought, you know, I haven't run anything in a long time. I also haven't posted anything to the boards in a VERY long time. Perhaps I need to amend that!

 

Hence I will be bringing to you, over the next few months, "Persona: The RPG," based on the MegaTen series. You can check out the wiki for such things if you're curious or need the background. The design will be heavily influenced by such things as Persona 3: FES, Persona 4 (which I will be buying a PS Vita just to play the Golden edition) and Persona 4: Arena. There will also be shades of Digital Devil Saga 1 & 2 and a few other bits and pieces in there as well.

 

For those of you who don't know (or who may have forgotten) I'm a bit of a modeling freak, and I shoot for exactness in my design, so there'll be a lot of time spent building, first, the "powers" as they exist in the two core Persona games so they'll be available to my players. Second, I'l going to have to work in the various Personas (I believe that P3:FES had 108 discoverable Personae) and more importantly, how to incorporate them into mechanics as well as the game play itself.

 

This is going to be a struggle in design, because I want each character to have their own purpose, and their own fighting style, in addition to wanting to be involved in the campaign proper, without changing the Persona concept into a GM fiat mechanic where the Persona "makes" the player do something. This is about investigation, not rewriting Curse of the Azure Bonds.

 

What would you be looking for, in terms of the incorporation of a "soul weapon" or "symbiote" concept? The Persona (again, for the unitiated) is an extremely powerful manifestation of the soul, the commanded Shadow, the other self. I'm considering taking everyone through a solo campaign where they defeat their Shadow to make it into their Persona, then, when things are sufficienting ----ing weird, bring the party together to deal with the investigation/plot/villains.

 

Now. I begin design.

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Re: Persona: The Fighting/RPG

 

Just yesterday I was checking out your profile, wondering where you'd gone for so long, hoping you were okay.

 

It's great to welcome back the Lord Captain Thia Halmades, and his Holy Ice Cream Cone of Smiting! :hail:

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Re: Persona: The Fighting/RPG

 

Aw, shucks guys. I'm easy enough to find, just follow the trail of sorrow, broken dreams and robot tears. I'm usually within screaming distance. My profile is set to auto-alert if I get an IM, so if you are EVER in doubt, just call out my name.

 

And you know, wherever I am.

 

I'LL COME SMITIN'. Whatever's keepin' you from readin' my posts ag'in.

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Re: Persona: The Fighting/RPG

 

One of the things I want to do for this campaign is really streamline the presentation of the systems I'm building. As many are aware, I'm a sucker for building "frames within frames." I'll take a mechanic and then build a sub-system around it so that it behaves exactly as I want it too. This makes explaining it to new people obscenely challenging, because while I now have a thing that works properly, it's usually complex. Elegant -- but complex.

 

Take, for example, my shield build. The way I built shields includes: Block Bonuses, Damage Reduction against Missiles, and a few other tricks. The whole beast is nightmarish to read and some would argue, unnecessarily complex. The design works perfectly for what I want shields to do in my campaign, however, so there's a certain finality to it.

 

Now, I'm converting a Japanese RPG system with comparatively inconsistent numbers (damage for part one ranges from "130" to "2200" I believe) and that makes doing a whole number conversion difficulty. Second, all physical skills in Persona cost HP -- and this is a non HP system. So my FIRST system in system is this Custom Limitation:

 

Taxing, (variable). Taxing powers cost STUN = END/2. Every 10 STUN incurs 1 BODY. Hence, a 20 END Physical Attack will cost you 10 STUN, 1 BODY to use. For my players, this immediately brings up this question:

 

"Can I buy [extra STUN/BODY], only for PERSONA skills?" I guarantee it'll be the first thing on the table. The current answer is "no," although it's something I would consider for very advanced Persona users. It's going to take many more skill builds before I'm certain that the ratio is right, but there are certain things guiding me:

 

* Using a separate-separate mechanic is a pain. No one wants to calculate, or have to reference "END Loss" everytime. 1/2 END is simple, you can note the page quickly, do it in advance, know exactly what each one requires. Nice and straight forward.

 

* For the price, I want Physical Skills to be appropriately powerful. "Cleave" (below) is a Light Damage/Single Opponent attack, and I started it at 6d6 HTH (or 6 DCs). That's around the weakest Persona attack in the physical category, and I don't consider 6 DCs "weak," more a standard, no frills attack. It costs 4 END/2 STUN to use. Nice and simple.

 

Once I get my head around what I want in terms of total power level, and how players will advance themselves and how to build the Personas, I'll have a clearer idea of the final design.

 

Second mechanic. In fighting games (and remember, this is going to be a combat heavy interpretation with a lot of fighting game elements built in) there's a concept called "Frame Advantage," or simply "advantage" or "disadvantage." What it means is that every button press in a fighting game takes a certain number of frames to:

 

Start: These are your opening frames, where you may have some limited invulnerability, or in fact be completely vulnerable, depending.

 

Active: Where your attack actually "hits," and is dangerous for the opponent to come into contact with you.

 

Recovery: All of the frames after Active where you are going back to "Ready."

 

Disadvantage is the number of frames after active, before ready, where you are completely open.

 

That's too much even for me to build. Not because I couldn't, but because it's irrational. What I did instead is create a new Custom Limitation: "Frame Disadvantage," specifically for the Persona itself. Every time the Persona is summoned, it's a physical manifestation that can be attacked (which suggests using 'Physical Manifestation,' but that's not how it works for instant powers). Then starting with Dex, depending on the attack, it's "out there" and eligible to be struck.

 

This raises the same question, "How much do I put into the Persona itself from a design standpoint?" but I'll tackle that once I have some powers built and an idea of my ranges.

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Re: Persona: The Fighting/RPG

 

Perhaps instead of extra Stun/Body, a person could buy extra recovery and maybe limited regeneration that only affects Persona loss effects? They lose it but recover more quickly than most people?

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Re: Persona: The Fighting/RPG

 

I'm not a design guy, or Persona player, so take this with a grain of salt. Wouldn't a low speed for Personas be easier to do than a frame disadvantage? maybe something like a 2 or 3 speed depending on the attack

CES

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Re: Persona: The Fighting/RPG

 

Perhaps instead of extra Stun/Body' date=' a person could buy extra recovery and maybe limited regeneration that only affects Persona loss effects? They lose it but recover more quickly than most people?[/quote']

 

Good morning! I'd have to give that some serious thought. For "game one," I really want that feeling of Risk/Reward. Persona (and MegaTen) are at least in part horror stories. While you rarely feel that in the videogame if you're appropriately prepared, I want to convey that in the conversion, so keeping a high threat level and making the payout worthwhile are both important to me. I can definitely see "extra REC, Only for Persona Skills (-1/2)" making sense, but I wouldn't have anyone open with it. Good call out, though.

 

I'm not a design guy, or Persona player, so take this with a grain of salt. Wouldn't a low speed for Personas be easier to do than a frame disadvantage? maybe something like a 2 or 3 speed depending on the attack

CES

 

Hey Csy, the idea is that a Persona is your own soul, so it moves as you command it too. That's part of the challenge is designing exactly how the Personae will manifest. The idea of Frame Exposure (or Disadvantage) is to give an opponent the opportunity to smack it. It's a mechanic I hadn't seen before, so I am really excited about getting it into the game.

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Re: Persona: The Fighting/RPG

 

Since this is a fighting game simulation, perhaps some attention could be given to initiative penalties for 'special' attacks. Above a certain point attack threshold, it takes more time to gather the energy and throw it against your opponent. If you already have a DEX advantage, you don't have to worry as much.

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Re: Persona: The Fighting/RPG

 

Since this is a fighting game simulation' date=' perhaps some attention could be given to initiative penalties for 'special' attacks. Above a certain point attack threshold, it takes more time to gather the energy and throw it against your opponent. If you already have a DEX advantage, you don't have to worry as much.[/quote']

 

Correct, although I'll rename Extra Time to "Extra Frames" for genre effect, you are spot on that this is a KEY limitation, even if it's a Dex reduction before anything else. Other key limitations are "Requires Persona, -1/2" (remember that in most "normal" world scenarios the Persona is unavailable, while in "Abnormal Land" (or whatever alternate dimension I set the second half of the campaign in) the Persona materially manifests and is used to execute any magical attacks or physical attacks of its own. That's one of the things "Frame Exposure" does, is keep the Persona from just being a 'super power.' You can risk it, you can temporarily lose it.

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Re: Persona: The Fighting/RPG

 

I'm playing through Persona 4: Arena now. Also going back to Persona 3 FES to finish it and finally start "The Answer" portion of the game. I'm a huge Persona fan, so I'm very interested in this thread developing. I have seriously considered doing a Persona game in the past and haven't completely given up on it yet. Just need the right group of players I think.

 

I would have the Physical Skills cost Stun and the Magical Skills cost END. Since it's pretty common for Persona to have recovery type skills, healing back lost Stun from Skill use shouldn't be too much of a problem. Doing it this way would also allow you to develop some pretty powerful physical skills without worrying about your players abusing them, since abuse would end up in their character being knocked out quickly!

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Re: Persona: The Fighting/RPG

 

I'm playing through Persona 4: Arena now. Also going back to Persona 3 FES to finish it and finally start "The Answer" portion of the game. I'm a huge Persona fan, so I'm very interested in this thread developing. I have seriously considered doing a Persona game in the past and haven't completely given up on it yet. Just need the right group of players I think.

 

I would have the Physical Skills cost Stun and the Magical Skills cost END. Since it's pretty common for Persona to have recovery type skills, healing back lost Stun from Skill use shouldn't be too much of a problem. Doing it this way would also allow you to develop some pretty powerful physical skills without worrying about your players abusing them, since abuse would end up in their character being knocked out quickly!

 

That was very much my plan -- I didn't want to create a new SP stat since END already "does that." Even though Arena has SP, HERO (to my mind) already handles it. I'm still thinking about how much "super skill" I want to fiddle with, since I have yet to find a new mechanic for Amplifying skills that I like. As you know from P4A, you can pound two buttons to up an attack to a Super -- such as Aigis' missile attack. Normally it's a 10 shot volley, but amped she flashes & it goes to 15 or 20, and that calls for use of SP.

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Re: Persona: The Fighting/RPG

 

Right, first draft. I actually lost my true first draft. Dammit.

 

Cleave: Hand-To-Hand Attack +6d6, Indirect (Source Point is the same for every use, path is from Source Point to target; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (52 Active Points); Physical Skill (Costs STUN = END/2, 10 STUN add 1 BODY; -1/2), Requires Persona (-1/2), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4), Frame Exposure (3 Dex Steps; -1/4)

 

Why Indirect? -- Because the Persona, a separate "thing," is doing the attacking, not the character.

But Thia, why is it HtH? -- Because the Persona does the actual "hitting," you see. In other words, you're always controlling two characters. One is "you." One is your Persona. This is hard to get your head around if you haven't seen it.

Frame Exposure -- Means the Persona can get hit, and if it takes enough punishment, is out of the fight. I have not decided how the Persona takes damage or heals yet.

What is "Physical Skill?" -- Unique in Persona is that Physical Skills from the Persona are taxing on the user. It costs no END, but instead incurs a STUN/BODY cost.

 

Look for the collection to grow, but you have an idea of what this stuff "does."

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Re: Persona: The Fighting/RPG

 

Okay, here's the first "big divergence" from the canon. In Persona, there are a very limited number of effects, which will take separate modeling later on. Right now, it's important to me, both as a HEROphile and as a MegaTen fan, to build powers that are within what I would consider the right range, and appropriate feel, but also that make sense in a P&P world that may not have been considered in the design of Persona, or that aren't that "interesting." Here you go with the first big compound power:

 

Sonic Punch: (Total: 88 Active Cost, 30 Real Cost) Hearing Group Flash 6d6, Indirect (Source Point is the same for every use, path is from Source Point to target; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (31 Active Points); Physical Skill (Costs STUN = END/2, 10 STUN add 1 BODY; -1/2), Requires Persona (-1/2), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4), Frame Exposure (3 Dex Steps; -1/4), Unified Power (Sonic Strike; Unified Damage Set; -1/4), Inaccurate (-2 OCV) (-1/4) (Real Cost: 10) plus:

 

Hand-To-Hand Attack +6d6, Indirect (Source Point is the same for every use, path is from Source Point to target; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (52 Active Points); Physical Skill (Costs STUN = END/2, 10 STUN add 1 BODY; -1/2), Requires Persona (-1/2), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4), Frame Exposure (3 Dex Steps; -1/4), Unified Power (Sonic Disruption; -1/4), Inaccurate (-2 OCV) (-1/4) (Real Cost: 17) plus:

 

+1 OCV (5 Active Points); Only to Improve Critical Chance (-1/2) (Real Cost: 3)

 

You can already see the power creep, and this is a low level physical skill. That tells me that most Personae will wind up with Multi-Power Frameworks as part of their design, with a "Physical" bucket, and likely a "Magical" bucket. So that helps answer part of that development process.

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Re: Persona: The Fighting/RPG

 

I keep having this odd feeling that the best way to model a Persona is using Duplication to manifest it. The Duplication power could then have Limitations on the Duplication power that reflect "feedback" into the person controlling it. This build would have the advantage of simplicity and replicating what I think you are striving for. You could then build the Persona as its own character.

 

If the Persona is "killed" during combat, it can eventually come back by means of a Resurrection power the created duplicate has, that will of course stop working if the controller dies.

 

This setup would give you two linked characters and would simplify some build issues.

 

Just my two cents.

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Re: Persona: The Fighting/RPG

 

Steve: That's not a bad idea, but I also know from canon that, at least in P3, there were 108 Personae. I know this is HERO, but I want to actively avoid "Frankensona," I need to model a number of Personae and establish the fundamental build rules before I can take next steps.

 

Csy: Summon crossed my mind, uncertain how to proceed yet. Much to do before this project realizes it's potential.

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Re: Persona: The Fighting/RPG

 

Steve: That's not a bad idea, but I also know from canon that, at least in P3, there were 108 Personae. I know this is HERO, but I want to actively avoid "Frankensona," I need to model a number of Personae and establish the fundamental build rules before I can take next steps.

 

Csy: Summon crossed my mind, uncertain how to proceed yet. Much to do before this project realizes it's potential.

 

Maybe before you decide they manifest, you should try to build on without a controller

CES

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Re: Persona: The Fighting/RPG

 

Team: This post may be TL/DR, and is not terribly well focused. Written at "midnight" on Sunday, and not all of my thoughts are fully fleshed out, and there will be typographical and grammatical errors, as well as half-finished thoughts and sentences. I'm posting it anyway because a) I always feel I write better to an audience, B) for those of you who are interested in this project I want your feedback and thoughts. You may have a better way of solving a problem, or better, convince there isn't a problem where I thought there was. I know this is a niche project and if it has three or four people interested, hey, that's exciting for me. Finally, c) I really want this to be fully transparent, as was my spell conversion project, which was well received. HALO I did very much on my own because it was again very niche, and I was developing my skills. Here, I'm posting all of this to generate discussion, get ideas, and build the best conversion document that I can.

 

Here's where I'm at. I've broken down the critical elements required to do a decent game of Persona, and I've started figuring out what amount of "Heroic License" I'm going to need to take to make this work, as this is going to be very much "a game built using the tools of HERO," rather than "A HERO game built using inspiration from Persona." For those of you who've read my work before, and know me to be a stickler for accuracy, this should come as little surprise. I'm always willing to take license and maintain the spirit and flavor of a thing if I have too, and in this case, I just don't see another way to solve a couple of key problems within the conversion if I don't take that route.

 

The things this conversion will cover are:

 

* The Persona Skills

* The Personae themselves, and how they'll behave in this setting

* Social Links

* Treasure

* Equipment (as necessary, but standard Hero equipment should be sufficient)

* Martial Arts design/Fighting Game elements

* How to conceive/run a Persona campaign

 

Heroic License 1: Using the DV system from APG II (and a few other places) rather than the traditional skill system. Why? I think it's actually "more true" (or truer) to the spirit of HERO. Having 6 levels in a skill, and I assign the target a DV of 6 (we'll call that about "average" for my games) means you need an 11-. Simple enough! Just like combat. Now if I add "4 DV" you need a 7-. If you buy 12 levels of a skill, it's easier for me to adjust it and perceive it, rather than say "Make a skill roll" and you only fail if you roll an 18. It changes thing one: The GM always sets a DV on any skill test, as they should now, but it's more transparent. Second, when you unify skills and combat, learning the game becomes simpler, and I want this conversion to be UBO.

 

Heroic License 2: Some Powers (what Persona calls "Skills," and I'm not going to confuse the hell out of everyone by switching those terms) invoke status effects. I am not going to do "plus Poison" on every Poison power, or "Confusion," or whatever. I'm also disinclined to level them up. They should be fairly set in their effect if I do it right. Given that, I'll be using Trigger in an unconventional way -- by not adding the cost of the Inflicted Status to the power, and instead only adding an Advantage "Inflict Status" that is Linked to the Trigger.

 

This is more in line with how HERO traditionally does things, instead of trying to copy and paste every single effect every time, there will be one sheet that lists all of the effects and their results, and how to break them. One of my players of course -- INVARIABLY -- said "There's always Transform."

 

No. I'm not even going to entertain that as a possibility unless the target is to be transformed. So that's right out. But you get the idea; this maintains the utility of Inflict Status, without the mess. It's an elegant solution, but well outside the canon.

 

The Persona Skills: Will be an inaccurate but spiritually true conversion. The biggest attack I can see is around 20 dice (60 DCs). That's for things like "Almighty," and in fairness, no player will have it for a very long time. Powers that are flagged as being "less accurate" in the game will have advantages that make them worth taking; I'm using a fairly straight forward grid to convert the powers themselves, and now that I have a solution to the "status effect" problem so common in JRPGs, I should be able to skate through the list.

 

The Personae: This is more challenging. There has already been some discussion as to how the Personae should work (are they summons? Are they duplicates?) so I want to clarify what my vision is for this setting. The Persona is one part self, two parts weapon. It manifests with every attack; all skills require Incantations (because of the status effect: Silence, which blocks all Persona skill usage). Skills are either Active or Passive; I need to research further how I want to handle Passives, because in HERO (and I believe in Persona 3: FES) the Passives still required an invocation, were built as UBO (Up to 4 targets) and had a set duration. But that's off topic. The Persona, then, is the character's supernatural ability, cannot act independently, and amplifies all of the character's statistics.

 

In the RPG, the Main Character (In 3, "The Avatar," in 4, Yu Nagakami, in Arena, again, Yu) can wield and change Personas, while the supporting cast only get one Persona. The reason its important to build all of them is twofold:

 

1) "Frankensona" must be avoided at all costs. The PCs cannot just pick the best powers -- the system has to be carefully balanced or it all falls right apart.

2) Leveling up and gaining new Personas with different skills is really integral to the game, and I'm weaving it into Treasure Collection and the Social Link mechanics. If the players approach this like "a HERO game" and just throw XP at their Persona until it's all super beast powerful, a lot of the suspense and tone goes out the window.

 

Social Links

 

I'm particularly proud of this one. Social Links are really about player reward for being awesome, doing the thing, what have you. I know my thoughts aren't organized enough to explain it all, but I'll give you the bullet point edition, starting with the basics.

 

In Persona, all social interactions (the "dating sim" part) is governed by Social Links, which are based on the 22 Major Arcana of the standard Tarot. As you meet people, and make the right decisions, you open up a Social Link to them that you then develop over time. Traditionally, the main character (Aigis, Yu, The Avatar) has the SL of "The Fool," or 0 in the Tarot. I have no problem with keeping this, but each player should also have their own personal Arcana (Sun, Moon, Lovers, etc). Implementing this into HERO at first struck me as incredibly daunting, and then I pared it back down to things that made more immediate sense:

 

* No one will ever have all of the Social Links at a high level, it doesn't make sense

* In a group, where everyone has free will instead of just the player controlled avatar, this makes far more sense, as different strengths and weaknesses can be managed much more easily

* It's important to have a standing mechanic that doesn't "force roleplaying" on the people who aren't heavy into RP, and doesn't rob the RPers of their monologue/GM conversation

 

Lastly. I wanted every player to be able to change their Persona. Why have one? You don't have one in any game except Arena, and that's because it's a fighter. This is a Fighting/RPG. So here's how we do it.

 

* Social Links will be represented by Contacts.

* The "Group" Social Link remains 0, The Fool. Everyone gets it.

* Each PC selects an Arcana of their own, and the person whom that link represents

* Each PC then knows the list of Persona associated with that Arcana that they may attempt to bond with. This is critical for tabletop, where it was a game of discovery in the RPG, truthfully it was a PIA. Much easier to tell people, "here's where this chain goes."

* As the PCs complete major objectives as a team, their ranks in "The Fool" grow alongside them.

* When the Contact of a Social Link contacts a PC, and they complete a mission/help them out/have a meaningful moment -- their ranks in it grow

* As PCs meet new Major NPCs (not scrubs, but big boys) they have an opportunity to build a Social Link with them once they've earned their trust in some way. In other words, even if you know that Yukari Tanaba is a strong link to the Lovers (VI), you can't bully her into bonding with you to build your SLs. For the non-RP set, this can be represented by missions, or "I spend time with Yukari," "Make a Conversation Roll." For the RPers, they of course get the classic boost to their roll through strong play.

 

In this way, the players are consistently looking for meaningful interaction opportunities to build their SLs. Building their SL sufficiently means a non-combat boost as the person is a Contact per HERO canon, and a mechanical boost as a higher SL means being able to adopt higher level Personae AND, it means being able to bond with Personae from that SL. So if you have Fool, Lovers, and The Tower, you can (as you can in Persona) bond with the appropriate Personae of your level. It also introduces a natural control instrument: Don't want players to have any Personae from The Tower? Don't introduce that SL. Don't want them getting Loki? Don't provide missions that level up that SL to that point.

 

I'm also strongly considering a third mechanic operating similarly to Luck/HAP based on the SL and the Persona in use. I want there to be multiple avenues of reward for all players. Someone might just take Strength, and build up that SL. They might want variety, or they might review all of the Personae later and go "Damn, I really want Lilith!" -- great! Work with your GM and think of who in the game might represent that SL, and bond with them. This might all seem very complex and cumbersome on the outside (Who wants to keep track of 22 contacts?!) but I don't think it's any different than how most social/political games are run. You build alliances, you lose them (yes, you can lose Contact/SL rankings -- if you really blow it you can lose access to that SL completely for a while) and then you bring those alliances, represented by your Persona -- into battle.

 

Treasure

 

I Persona 3. To wit, Treasure will be handled by a Tarot Card system (or if you don't have a Tarot deck, a randomly generated set of numbers from 1 - 72). Treasure is divided into Suits and Major Arcana, with said Arcana giving an opportunity to bond with a Persona (that last bit is subject to further definition). But otherwise:

 

* Wands: represent growth. They grant an XP bonus in Persona, and might do the same here. I'm open to your thoughts.

* Swords: Gear. Classically weapons, but it could be anything (also: Wands can become weapons).

* Cups: Healing. REC boosts, Aids, Heals, the sky is the limit here

* Pentacles/Coins: Uh. Coin. Monies. Ducats. Denero. Benjamins. Non-gear associated lewtz.

 

There won't be a single loot chart, although I will endeavor to make a one for the canon version of this ... conversion.

 

And that's it for now. I need to work on the Skills first, because that's where I always get my grounding for power levels, and then build out from there. Feel free to post, and eventually I will edit this.

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Re: Persona: The Fighting/RPG

 

You know what Personae really are? They are foci.

CES

 

Hmm. They can never, ever, be taken away. Even as an IIF, that doesn't connect for me, since it should be "OIF" from that reasoning (it's very Obvious, it's inaccessible). Nothing can take away your soul in the setting. Walk me through your chain of thinking here, if you would.

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