Looking for Feint Feedback

[Reality]

I created a Feint Maneuver a while ago and put the PDF for it on my blog. I wanted to know if anyone had used it in their games and how it worked out. I haven't had much of a chance to use it in my current campaign, though I will probably get to do so soon. If there are any problems with it, I'd like to know in advance so I can fix them.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Looking for Feint Feedback

 

Cool concept! Having just read it I obviously haven't used it yet, but I am curious to try it out. I like the new weapon element as well.

 

Although I confess I can't quite wrap my mind around a "grappling feint", I can see the feint manuever being tacked onto a basic strike, sort of the reverse of the manuever element "Must follow specific manuever". The feint strike would essentially focus the opponent on the current attack and set the attacker up for a better shot in the next phase.

[Reality]

Re: Looking for Feint Feedback

 

Cool concept! Having just read it I obviously haven't used it yet, but I am curious to try it out. I like the new weapon element as well.

 

Although I confess I can't quite wrap my mind around a "grappling feint", I can see the feint manuever being tacked onto a basic strike, sort of the reverse of the manuever element "Must follow specific manuever". The feint strike would essentially focus the opponent on the current attack and set the attacker up for a better shot in the next phase.

 

I have to admit the Grappling Feint was an experiment for me. Think of it in terms of wrestling, though; if the target thinks you're going to perform a camel clutch but you then go for a chin lock instead, you'd get the benefit of landing a grab and shock the target sufficiently to give you a bonus on your follow-up attack provided you moved quickly enough.

[dmjalund]

Re: Looking for Feint Feedback

 

Damning with Feint praise!

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Looking for Feint Feedback

 

Hmm, okay. I guess my knowledge of wrestling is a bit weak, but I can see that. I always think of the feint as a fencing manuever, but it may apply to wrestling too. Do you know if there are any other real world martial arts techniques that are similar?

 

And just to play devil's advocate, what if I bought a generic "Feint Power" like this:

 

+2 Levels with a Large group of powers (10 pts), OCV only (-½), Half Phase to Activate (-¼), Costs END (-½) real cost 5

 

Here the extra time reflects the fact you have to make the feint before making the actual strike, and it costs END since you have to move to make the feint (but only 1 END since it isn't a full-fledged attack). The price is similar to the martial arts manuevers you outlined, but you don't have to lose an action setting it up.

[Reality]

Re: Looking for Feint Feedback

 

Hmm, okay. I guess my knowledge of wrestling is a bit weak, but I can see that. I always think of the feint as a fencing manuever, but it may apply to wrestling too. Do you know if there are any other real world martial arts techniques that are similar?

 

And just to play devil's advocate, what if I bought a generic "Feint Power" like this:

 

+2 Levels with a Large group of powers (10 pts), OCV only (-½), Half Phase to Activate (-¼), Costs END (-½) real cost 5

 

Here the extra time reflects the fact you have to make the feint before making the actual strike, and it costs END since you have to move to make the feint (but only 1 END since it isn't a full-fledged attack). The price is similar to the martial arts manuevers you outlined, but you don't have to lose an action setting it up.

 

Your wrestling knowledge is probably far better than mine, actually.

 

A feint is any attempt to convince your opponent that you are trying to make one kind of attack so that you can exploit their mistake. Feint may be the fencing term, but it can apply to literally any martial art, from aikido to wrestling.

 

There is actually a write-up for a Feint Power in Hero System Martial Arts (HSMA 114). It is based on Drain applied to DCV. There is also a Feint Skill presented in that same book (HSMA 244). I designed the Feint Maneuver because I felt that Feint didn't belong as either a Skill or a Power, but as a Maneuver. I used the rules in HSMA Chapter 2 for designing martial arts maneuvers to design Feint. I of course had to come up with a new Base and Element from scratch.

 

That said, I can't see anything wrong with your build for a Feint Power, apart from the fact that it gives a flat +2OCV rather than between +1OCV and +3OCV depending on the success of the Feint.

 

I don't see that you lose an action setting up the Feint Maneuver. You spend a Half-Phase Action to use Feint, just as in the use of your Power. Of course, with my maneuver, if you don't use it on your next action on the person you targeted, you lose the benefit of the extra OCV. So maybe you should change Only OCV to Only To Boost OCV Against Same Target and add Must Make Attack On Next Half-Phase in order to ensure that the power follows common-sense use of the ability.

[psyber624]

Re: Looking for Feint Feedback

 

my biggest issue with the concept of the feint as you have presented it, is why would you ever use it? Since you have to succeed with an attack roll for it to be successful, it seems like a waste of an attack action (the bonus to ocv is kinda wasted if you could have hit him anyway). I suppose there may be some weird set of circumstances where it would be beneficial, but I am really struggling to see it.

 

I would say that feint would be better done something like Ockham's version, where you use a half action to give yourself a bonus to OCV, (although half phase to activate is wrong, that means you could keep those +2 levels going from then on, it should just be Half Phase, and then a limitation "Only vs a single target". If you want a chance at failure give it a Required Roll as well).

[Reality]

Re: Looking for Feint Feedback

 

The biggest reason to use Feint is that it is a free way to get a bonus to OCV. The basic Feint Maneuver is an Optional Maneuver, and simply requires a little patience (the spending of a Half-Phase) to gain the benefit. Using Ockham's version means that to get any kind of benefit requires you to spend Character Points to purchase it. Yes, the Martial Maneuvers cost points too, but that's to gain CV bonuses to the Feint itself, making it more likely the Feint will work or at least you won't be as vulnerable while making it.

 

Plus, as a Maneuver it integrates seamlessly with Maneuver-based combat. It works the way a feint would work in real life, as a strategy rather than as a separate talent.

[Reality]

Re: Looking for Feint Feedback

 

I also don't see it as a waste of an attack Action, since Feint isn't an attack Action; it is a Half-Phase Action you take prior to an attack Action. If you have a Phase in which all you plan to do is attack, rather than discarding your first Half-Phase Action, you first Feint, then attack.

[Reality]

Re: Looking for Feint Feedback

 

With regards to the HSMA Feint Power, you could just as easily make Feint as Aid OCV 3D6, Requires a Roll, Limited Duration (Must Use On Next Half-Phase), Only For Next Attack, Self-Only. I'm sure there are other Advantages and Limitations you could apply as well.

[Greywind]

Re: Looking for Feint Feedback

 

I've always seen the various OCV/DCV modifiers for maneuvers as incorporating feints already.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Looking for Feint Feedback

 

Hmm' date=' okay. I guess my knowledge of wrestling is a bit weak, but I can see that. I always think of the feint as a fencing manuever, but it may apply to wrestling too. Do you know if there are any other real world martial arts techniques that are similar?[/quote']

 

Feinting plays a huge role in many martial arts.

 

Your basic low-high round kick in is a prime example found in many striking arts. The quick low roundhouse kick feint draws the opponents hands down to block. This opens up the high line for the real kick, a roundhouse delivered with the same leg to the now unprotected head.

 

In grappling, we have similar tricks.

 

Lets say I want to foot sweep my oppoent with something like sasae tsurikomi ashi, which is a blocking foot sweep from judo that makes the opponent fall forward.

 

I can try to just pull him forward to off balance him. In fact, that is one of the most basic methods of kuzushi (breaking balance) that is taught when learning the technique.

 

However, it is also the easiet to anticipate and counter.

 

Instead, I might feint that I am going to use a rear throw like o soto gari. This techniques works best when I off balance my opponent to the rear before cutting his legs out from under him.

 

My opponent knows this. To avoid the o soto gari, he will most likely move his leg backwards and shift his balance forward reflexively. That shift in balance sets him up perfectly for a forward throw, like the aforementioned sease tsuri komi ashi.

 

I chose that particular example, as it's a common combo and I knew of a detailed breakdown of it that could illustrate the point

 

[Reality]

Re: Looking for Feint Feedback

 

The OCV/DCV Modifiers simulate the inherent bonuses to hit a target and to protect oneself from counter attack when applying a straight-forward use of the Maneuver (i.e. without trickery).

[Greywind]

Re: Looking for Feint Feedback

 

That's certainly one interpretation.

[Reality]

Re: Looking for Feint Feedback

 

True, but it is one based on the truism that not every punch incorporates a feint (most don't), just like not every use of DCV is a Dodge. By your interpretation, there's no reason for the various Dodge Maneuvers either, since DCV can be interpreted as "dodging out of the way of the attack."

 

It makes more sense to consider Strikes, Grabs, etc. as direct assaults, and feints (whether in the form of a Power, Skill or Maneuver) as something else tacked on to give the attacker an extra edge.

 

In the end, though, if you don't want to use a Power, Skill or Maneuver to represent feints, if you want to just use the OCV/DCV modifiers and call feints merely part of the description of the attack, that's fine. Your game, your call, and I appreciate your feedback that you don't consider feints a separate element worthy of additional elements.

 

However, that feints are not incorporated in that way is the basic assumption of this thread. I want to know, for those who have tried my Feint Maneuvers, did it work for them as well as, better than, or worse than using a Power or Skill for feinting. For those whom have not tried it, but agree with the premise, what pitfalls or boons do they foresee in the Maneuver's use.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Looking for Feint Feedback

 

I utilize the +1 on a success and +2 on a critical success (half roll). I like the idea of adding another +1 (to +3) on a "perfect success" (roll of 3). I think I might start doing that with all my Complementary Rolls.

 

I also use a Talent version of feints built using skill levels with the requires a skill roll limitation. With this talent the character could get an extra (+1 to +3 based on points spent) with their feint roll. This is fully cumulative with the "free" version (one skill roll involved) thus +6 to OCV would be the maximum bonus and only then if the character bought the max Talent AND rolled a 3 on their skill roll.

[Reality]

Re: Looking for Feint Feedback

 

I'd never thought of a Talent version of Feint. Nice approach!

[JohnTaber]

Re: Looking for Feint Feedback

 

In my Fantasy Hero campaign I did Feint/Piercing Repost/"You are using the Italian Dimedici style!" like this using powers:

10 (25) +2 OCV (Only after being in combat with the attacker for at least 1 Turn (-1), Only on a strike conducted after a block (-1/2)) plus +10 Strength (Reduced To 0 End (+1/2), Only after being in combat with the attacker for at least 1 Turn (-1), Only on a strike conducted after a block (-1/2), Does not add to figured characteristics (-1/2))

 

This way it comes for free on the attack after a block.

[Lucius]

Re: Looking for Feint Feedback

 

Is this feedback faint enough?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

fading palindromedary

[psyber624]

Re: Looking for Feint Feedback

 

Ahh, see I did not understand that it was not an attack action (it requires an attack roll and RAW that makes it an attack action, no problem with stating feint is an exception to this but that is not what I understood). With that understanding Feint becomes a decent combat maneuver. If you have nothing to do for your first half action there is no loss in trying to gain a bonus to OCV for your actual attack roll. That being the case, I have one question on how this works. If you use a martial feint version as your first half action in a phase, and then use a different maneuver as your 2nd half action, the OCV/DCV modifiers from the 2nd action will replace the modifiers from the feint, correct? They do not add, right? Also, CSL's would still only be able to assigned to OCV/DCV/DAM once per phase? So you could try your feint with no CSL's assigned, then allocate them according to the results of the feint, but could not allocate them before the feint (to try and ensure success) then switch after it to boost your attack?

 

 

Actually, thinking about it I really think that it should be based off something other than an attack roll. At that point it becomes worthwhile even if your not going to attack this phase as you could use your feint to try and hit someone you have a lower chance of hitting normally (as you don't have to actually hit them to get the OCV bonus, which is something I have an issue with. From a logic standpoint your feint isn't supposed to connect with your opponent, only supposed to make him react to a perceived attack, so your not actually trying to "hit" him so OCV/DCV comparison feels like the wrong means of measuring success to me.)

[Reality]

Re: Looking for Feint Feedback

 

Not all the Combat Maneuvers are Attack Maneuvers in the RAW. The ones that give you a bonus to your next attack, for example Brace and Set, are examples. Feint is pretending at an attack rather than making an actual attack.

 

You are correct that the OCV/DCV modifiers of an Attack Action replace those of the Feint Action. However, if you Feint as your second Half-Phase Action, those modifiers remain in place until you act next Phase. So it is still worth having Martial Feint or Passing Feint rather than just the free version of Feint.

 

You are also correct that allocation of CSL's only occurs once per Phase. You can dump them all into your Feint, you can save them for your attack, or you can split them. Personally, I'd only put a lot of CSL's into Feint if it were my second Half-Phase Action, so I could get the benefit of any Feint bonus and CSL's on my attack or DCV.

 

As to your last point, I can see where you are coming from. However, you are also not trying to "hit" a target when performing a Block (no damage is intended) but you still use OCV to do it. Feint is still a combat action, and using OCV to trick the target (to "hit" for deception rather than for damage) makes the most sense for me.

 

I could also hear an argument for using MOCV and MDCV for Feint instead of OCV/DCV if you use house rules such as the Skill CV optional rules or require MOCV/MDCV rolls before making Presence Attacks. Since the use of Feint is psychological as much as physical, that might be a reasonable substitution. Not my personal preference, you understand, but I could see it working.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Looking for Feint Feedback

 

I would say that feint would be better done something like Ockham's version, where you use a half action to give yourself a bonus to OCV, (although half phase to activate is wrong, that means you could keep those +2 levels going from then on, it should just be Half Phase, and then a limitation "Only vs a single target". If you want a chance at failure give it a Required Roll as well).

 

Yeah, I should have limited it to only the next attack and one target. Good catch.

 

I had not thought about the Feint Manuever as Reality describes as being a non-attack action (unless coupled with a Strike of some sort), allowing it to be coupled with an attack in a single phase since most Martial Arts manuevers are considered attack actions, but that makes it a lot more useful.

 

While the extra OCV build, or some DCV Drain or whatever is mechanically sound for a feint, it is outside of the martial art itself. You could also build any Martial Arts manuever like that (your basic Martial Strike is just +2 Damage Classes with +2 DCV), but there is something coherent about having a defined martial art that I find appealing, and the martial arts manuevers do have a slightly different flavor from straight power builds.

 

The Feint is almost certainly an advanced manuever, and while you could argue that anyone with extra levels in their Martial Art could just put them toward OCV and call it a feint, having a Feint manuever adds more color and granularity.

 

 

Finally, thanks for the examples and video Bloodstone!

[psyber624]

Re: Looking for Feint Feedback

 

Yeah, not all combat maneuvers are attack maneuvers, but any action that requires an attack roll is an attack action (6e2 18). And with a block you are actually trying to HIT the attack itself with your block (which is what I understood the reasoning behind OCV vs OCV to be.) I really like the idea of a feint maneuver, I just want to work to define one that would work in the rules better. Also, Set and Brace and the like have NO roll required, they simply work. If you wanted to state that Feint simply gives you +2 OCV to your next hand to hand attack and require no roll for it that would work as well.

 

From a logical standpoint I would want the roll for a feint to be more of a skill thing (ie who is better at fighting etc.) Honestly I think either a "Martial Arts skill" or default Dex roll (possibly opposed) works better than a standard attack roll. It also makes feint more useful. One of the biggest issues I have with feint right now is that while in the real world it is an incredibly useful maneuver in the context of HERO the way you have it currently written it is a maneuver where you have to hit someone to make it easier to hit them. That really limits its usefulness. If your feint will hit, then you really didn't need a feint to GET a hit. If your feint wont hit, then using it wont help you. There are three ways I can see to fix this problem

 

1. Add +OCV's to the basic Feint Maneuver itself (I would recommend +2-4). Now Feint is useful if your opponent has DCV slightly better than your OCV, as the bonuses to Feint mean that you are likely to be able to get your Feint off, and then you have a good shot at making the next maneuver hit. Martial Feints should be built with MORE +'s to OCV as they need to consider the fact that the other Martial Maneuver's you have access to already have +'s to OCV built in to them.

 

2. Use a different roll than an attack roll. Either a skill roll (has its own issues) or a DEX roll or something like this. That way your bonus to your OCV for the next attack is not based upon being able to hit your opponent in the first place. This makes Feint much more useful. Opposed Rolls sound logical here, or you could use your opponents "base" roll as the target number to determine your MoS.

 

3. Eliminate the roll concept. Easiest to do but honestly makes Feint too powerful without some form of downside, would probably need to put -dcv of some sort on it to keep balance considerations, but this brings up issues with Martial Variants of the Maneuver.

[Reality]

Re: Looking for Feint Feedback

 

Thanks to everyone who has weighed in so far. This has given me a lot to think about.