Mind Control with Dog Collars

[Ockham's Spoon]

Say you have a master villain who wants to mind control people, but he doesn't have the technology to literally turn them into mindless slaves, so he resorts to a low tech measure wherein he wires the victim up with a device that will electrocute them if they stray from his wishes. This is rather like those "invisible" fences that are supposed to keep dogs from wandering off by giving them an electrical shock if they cross the boundary. Strictly speaking the person isn't mind controlled, but most people will do his bidding just to avoid the pain.

 

So the question is how would you model this in the HERO system? The device itself is really just a Xd6 NND attack, triggered when the victim strays from the villain's commands (you might throw some Detects or Clairsentience in there so the villain can keep track of what is going on, but that is a different issue). You could just call it Mind Control with a physical sfx, linked to a NND attack, but that doesn't really feel right to me. It feels more like a PRE attack actually, but PRE attacks aren't really designed to be used quite like this.

 

Just to complicate matters, let's say the villain can crank up the voltage on the device to deliver a bigger zap if the first one was insufficient to persuade the victim, up to the point the victim is literally knocked unconscious if they hold out long enough. That would be like the Mind Control getting stronger with time, or maybe penalties to a resisting EGO roll.

 

So how would you model this device?

[psyber624]

Re: Mind Control with Dog Collars

 

That sounds more like a plot device than anything else. You can build the collars with the NND attack built in, but it doesn't really offer any form of Mind Control. They are free to do whatever they wish, they simply have to be willing to pay the price. To note, if you ever tried using one of these collars on one of your PC's you shouldn't really try to force them to act a certain way just because of the possible results of their actions. And if it's not going to be used on the PC's there is no need to try and build this power in HERO terms.

 

As a thought experiment it sounds more like a use of the Persuasion skill than anything else. You are using pain as a means to try and persuade someone to do as you want. I would probably state that it is opposed by EGO rolls (not Persuasion skill) and allow Resistance to be used for bonuses to the roll. You might create a new skill, based on Persuasion, called "Torture" or the like to represent this (and to keep it separate from normal Persuasion skill). This device is really just an OIF focus for some amounts of +'s to the Persuasion/Torture skill roll.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Mind Control with Dog Collars

 

That sounds more like a plot device than anything else. You can build the collars with the NND attack built in, but it doesn't really offer any form of Mind Control. They are free to do whatever they wish, they simply have to be willing to pay the price. To note, if you ever tried using one of these collars on one of your PC's you shouldn't really try to force them to act a certain way just because of the possible results of their actions. And if it's not going to be used on the PC's there is no need to try and build this power in HERO terms.

 

As a thought experiment it sounds more like a use of the Persuasion skill than anything else. You are using pain as a means to try and persuade someone to do as you want. I would probably state that it is opposed by EGO rolls (not Persuasion skill) and allow Resistance to be used for bonuses to the roll. You might create a new skill, based on Persuasion, called "Torture" or the like to represent this (and to keep it separate from normal Persuasion skill). This device is really just an OIF focus for some amounts of +'s to the Persuasion/Torture skill roll.

 

Yeah, handwaving it was actually my first thought, but I kind of wanted to attach a mechanic to it. Using a Persuasion/Interrogation skill with modifiers seems like a reasonable alternative. I normally think of that of a face-to-face sort of thing, but since the villain is monitoring the victim it could just be that all the persuasive words he used were simply ZAP! Then Talents like Resistance would come into play nicely.

[sinanju]

Re: Mind Control with Dog Collars

 

That sounds more like a plot device than anything else. You can build the collars with the NND attack built in, but it doesn't really offer any form of Mind Control. They are free to do whatever they wish, they simply have to be willing to pay the price. To note, if you ever tried using one of these collars on one of your PC's you shouldn't really try to force them to act a certain way just because of the possible results of their actions. And if it's not going to be used on the PC's there is no need to try and build this power in HERO terms.

 

This. Definitely this. If it's being used on NPCs, no write-up is needed. Just play them as you think necessary. If it's being used on PCs, I still wouldn't write it up, I'd just require the PC to make an EGO roll to ignore the pain if he disobeys. If the pain is great enough, perhaps an EGO roll every phase not to just stagger/fall writhing in pain, plus another (if he makes the first one) to act in defiance of his commands. But since it's not actual MIND CONTROL, I would still leave it up to the players to decide how their characters respond/

[gojira]

Re: Mind Control with Dog Collars

 

Consider using AI as Followers, or AI as Equipment.

 

The main thing for me is that the device has to be able to "know" when a person deviates from an instruction or the masters "wishes," and that requires a degree of analysis and knowledge that I couldn't personally feel a simple device could have. Whether you just allow a Trigger or require an AI is up to you, of course.

 

Also, if you can't build a Mind Control device, you might be able to just buy them. But if you can't afford some Mind Control collars, AI collars might also be out of reach. Thugs to kidnap their families might be cheaper. So might hiring a supervillain with mind control powers.

[phoenix240]

Re: Mind Control with Dog Collars

 

It seems most like a major bonus to Persuasion/Interrogation skills with a Focus and physical SFX if you were to write it up or just a plot device otherwise. If the collars could actually render their target unconscious (or worse) then give them an Attack of some sort.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Mind Control with Dog Collars

 

I'm not disagreeing with the above, but just for the sake of argument, I'm offering a few thoughts on writing this up:

 

First, the "dog collar" would be an Entangle that doesn't stop damage. Second, the "mind control" part of it would be some sort of triggered attack power, linked to the Entangle, which gets triggered when the target of the Entangle disobeys instructions or tries to remove the collar.

 

Obviously I'm glossing over some details, there, but it's a start.

[BhelliomRahl]

Re: Mind Control with Dog Collars

 

In a previous fantasy game I ran I used a collar system (Taken from a book - Legacies by L.E. Modesitt, Jr). All Males of this country were fitted with a collar on their 13th Birthday and all prisoners. If the wearer attempted any sort of violence against a female citizen the collar inflicted pain and restrained them, this could be altered if they were soldiers or guards. Also certain ranking woman were able to active the collars at will (Only magic users, but this was unknown. Most thought any women could do this). Also if the collars were tampered with they inflicted pain and if removed incorrectly would detonate. Although they released if the wearer was dead.

 

Kind of funny, the players noticed that all the males wore these collars so took some of a patrol they killed and put them on to blend in without finding out what they were for. Did I ever have fun with that. Just glad I had a GM Screen which I could duck behind to hide my grin when they put them on.

Having them wear the collars did limit what they could do, some people thinks a GM should not do this but I see it more as encouraging the players to look at things differently and solve a problem in a new and possible unusual method. In the end the players discovered a method to get the collars off, although it took them about one and a half years game time.

 

I mainly represented them as a Social Complication.

Social Complication ( Infrequent / Major) - Collared Male - Males are considered Second Class Citizens, with few rights. Must obey orders or suffer pain possible death in extreme cases.

It worked due to magic so that got around certain aspects off how it operated.

If they were in the Military or Guard was increased to Very Frequent / Major.

 

However I also did write it up mechanicly incase I needed it:

Entangle - Trigger - Violence against a Female citizen or Activated by Magic, Time Limit - 5 minutes - No Breakout, Focus - OIF

Killing Attack - 1d6 NND - Not Wearing Collar (Does Body), Constant, Trigger - Activation by Magic, No Endurance, Focus - OIF

Energy Blast - 3d6 NND - Not Wearing Collar, Constant, Trigger -Violence against a Femail Citizen, No Endurance, Linked - Entangle (Only while Entangle active), Focus - OIF

 

This is just a simplified right up, would need to search the loft for the notes on it for more detail.

 

Although as I remember it I never used the mechanics. If a character met one of my trigger conditionals the collar would paralyse and render them unconcious in short order.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind Control with Dog Collars

 

How about a NND attack linked to a long term NND EGO drain?

 

Basically the wearer can be shocked (and eventually KO'd) but also loses a bit of EGO whenever it happens - eventually they just do as they are told (most of the time).

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Mind Control with Dog Collars

 

So this would be what the cool kids call over sharing, right?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mind Control with Dog Collars

 

If you really want a Mind Control mechanic based on the pain wearing down the target's resistance (very gritty, rather than four colour), a Cumulative Mind Control based on CON linked to an NND shock simulating the combination of the pain itself and the controller's skill in using that punishment mechanism to elicit obedience could work.

[psyber624]

Re: Mind Control with Dog Collars

 

I like that idea if you are going for very gritty (basically ANYONE will eventually submit, no matter how tough) but I would base it on EGO, not CON. (At least the Mind Control Part). Being able to resist torture is a function of EGO.

 

You could require some sort of a CON roll, failure of which changes the damage to killing damage (weaker targets are killed, tougher targets are mostly hurt) and add an EGO/CON drain to the attacks. But that is getting REALLY complicated for a writeup of a plot device.

[gojira]

Re: Mind Control with Dog Collars

 

It's Slave Women of Gor Collars!

 

So this would be what the cool kids call over sharing' date=' right?[/quote']

 

Oh. Right. Sorry.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Mind Control with Dog Collars

 

The Entangle is an interesting idea I had not considered. I had thought doing enough STN to stun the victim would suffice, but the Entangle is more effective in stopping transgressions and it fits the sfx nicely.

 

Long term EGO drain would work well mechanically, although it might have to be limited only to EGO rolls to resist the villain's commands.

 

Cumulative Mind Control sounds like a more elegant solution, although I confess I still like the idea of a Persuasion skill roll with extra skill levels based on the amount of damage the shock does.

 

Thanks to everyone for their input.