Average Joe + Offensive Strike + Haymaker = punching through metal doors?

[JasonPacker]

I feel certain this has been covered, but searching has proved less than fruitful. Has there been any discussion about the radical damage associated with Offensive Strike + Haymaker (+8 DCs)?

[bigbywolfe]

Champions Complete page 150:

Haymaker is a Maneuver in and of itself – a character

cannot, for example, do a Haymaker with an Offensive Strike. A

character cannot Push a Haymaker (though he can Haymaker

an attack he’s Pushing).

[bigbywolfe]

Champions Complete page 150:

Haymaker is a Maneuver in and of itself – a character

cannot, for example, do a Haymaker with an Offensive Strike. A

character cannot Push a Haymaker (though he can Haymaker

an attack he’s Pushing).

The exact same wording can be found in Hero System 6E Volume 2: Combat and Adventuring on page 69.

[bigbywolfe]

Probably more importantly is this.

6E2 page 90:

The GM should keep common sense in mind

when dealing with Martial Arts damage. In the

real world, some martial artists are capable of

incredible feats, but that doesn’t mean PCs should

be able to duplicate those feats effortlessly just

because they’ve spent a few points on Martial

Maneuvers. Even though a character can do,

for example, 9d6 with his Offensive Strike, he

shouldn’t necessarily be able easily to kick down

a wall or the bars of a jail cell....

Regardless of whether it’s possible in game terms

to do it, the GM can, and should, tell players their

characters can’t do these things, because it would

be just plain ridiculous. If it suits the tone of the

campaign, let them do it, but in more “realisticâ€

games, feel free to ignore what the rules say and

tell the players No.

Bold added by me for emphasis.

[JasonPacker]

Oh thank god. I was sure I'd seen both of these things before, but I was AFB and debating with someone who tried to convince me that Hero did a terrible job with physical attacks against inanimate objects.

[bigbywolfe]

A couple things to keep in mind on top of what I already posted. Hero's default mode is "cinematic realism". In movies people kick in regular doors with a single hit all the time and in some action movies (even ones without superpowers and unnatural abilities) it may be entirely possible to kick down a metal door. That wouldn't necessarily mean you put your fist through the door, it might mean you merely broke the catch/bolt or door-frame. Whether or not that is acceptable depends on the genre of the game and your groups personal play-style.

 

There is also the fact that the Defense and Body of objects are not set in stone. They are suggestions, just like the various point levels and AP caps and pretty much everything else in the "toolkit". Many people actually lower the DEF and BODY of objects they feel are too strong in Superheroic level games.

 

 

Even a STR 20 character (20 being used as "human max" in many Heroic level campaigns) throwing a Haymaker is throwing 8 DCs and will take at least 2 hits on average to take out a metal fire door. That doesn't seem too far off for some action movies.

[Hyper-Man]

A couple things to keep in mind on top of what I already posted. Hero's default mode is "cinematic realism". In movies people kick in regular doors with a single hit all the time and in some action movies (even ones without superpowers and unnatural abilities) it may be entirely possible to kick down a metal door. That wouldn't necessarily mean you put your fist through the door, it might mean you merely broke the catch/bolt or door-frame. Whether or not that is acceptable depends on the genre of the game and your groups personal play-style.

 

There is also the fact that the Defense and Body of objects are not set in stone. They are suggestions, just like the various point levels and AP caps and pretty much everything else in the "toolkit". Many people actually lower the DEF and BODY of objects they feel are too strong in Superheroic level games.

 

 

Even a STR 20 character (20 being used as "human max" in many Heroic level campaigns) throwing a Haymaker is throwing 8 DCs and will take at least 2 hits on average to take out a metal fire door. That doesn't seem too far off for some action movies.

One of the APG's mentions how strong charcters can possibly injure themselves when the crushing damage of what they are lifting exceeds their PD. That could be extrapolated to the door smashing example. If the character rolls more Body damage than their PD and doesn't move the target (do Body damage past defenses that either puts a hole in it or knocks it off its hinges) then the character might injure themselves. This is similar in concept to a character performing a Move Through and not doing any Knockback and taking full damage from their own attack (instead of 1/2 damage) as a result.

[Lucius]

Something to keep in mind about Martial Arts - they seem very cheap for what they do. Best way to understand why is to realize that they have "built in limits" not accounted for as formal Limitations, similar to the "Real Weapon" Limitation.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

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Over the line with a palindromedary

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[GhostDancer]

I have all the muscle tone of over-cooked spaghetti and I've kicked in metal doors set in metal frames. The catch was engaged, but not the deadbolt, like bigbywolfe stated.

[bigbywolfe]

I have all the muscle tone of over-cooked spaghetti and I've kicked in metal doors set in metal frames. The catch was engaged, but not the deadbolt, like bigbywolfe stated.

I didn't know you were a Pastafarian.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Remember Rule #6 in role-playing games: the gamemaster always has the right to say no. He never has to allow you to do anything that is logically impossible.

[Vanguard]

Remember Rule #6 in role-playing games: the gamemaster always has the right to say no. He never has to allow you to do anything that is logically impossible.

Unfortunately some players, and a few GMs, forget this.

 

There are times when, regardless of what is possible by the rules, the GM just needs to say "no".

[JasonPacker]

Remember Rule #6 in role-playing games: the gamemaster always has the right to say no. He never has to allow you to do anything that is logically impossible.

And in their defense, I would love a game that could anticipate every contingency and not force me to rely on that rule as often as possible.

[JasonPacker]

I have all the muscle tone of over-cooked spaghetti and I've kicked in metal doors set in metal frames. The catch was engaged, but not the deadbolt, like bigbywolfe stated.

Yeah, I was thinking more "10d6, decent odds of doing more than 10 BODY per hit, PD 10 on a Safe Door (6E2, 171)" and you get a safe door that can be worn down in a matter of minutes by a trained martial artist with average strength. Remove the Haymaker and you still have 6d6, which can in extreme cases damage that safe door, eventually reducing the BODY to zero.

 

Wish there was a mechanical way to represent that, rather than the GM Invoked Reality clause.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Oops! I used the wrong rule number. It should be Rule #25.

 

(Yes, I've been reading a lot of Precocious lately. hey, I once wrote a published RPG based on a webcomic. I'm entitled to read funny stuff.)

[bigbywolfe]

Remember Rule #6 in role-playing games: the gamemaster always has the right to say no. He never has to allow you to do anything that is logically impossible.

JasonPacker, good thing in this case you don't have to rely on that rule as the combination that caused concern isn't legal in the first place Other optional rules, like the ones Hyper-Man mentioned, further prevent the situation from arising in the first place.

[TheRealDeal]

One way to model objects so they resist "normal" damage better is to give them all (by default as a house rule) an extra amount of PD/ED equal to their normal rPD/rED. This way, they resist "normal" damage attacks with essentially twice the defense, but killing attacks still affect them normally. This would help keep punches and the like from doing what you do not want them to do to metal doors.

[bigbywolfe]

One way to model objects so they resist "normal" damage better is to give them all (by default as a house rule) an extra amount of PD/ED equal to their normal rPD/rED. This way, they resist "normal" damage attacks with essentially twice the defense, but killing attacks still affect them normally. This would help keep punches and the like from doing what you do not want them to do to metal doors.

But it would also make it unreasonably difficult to break some objects. A light bar stool or a wooden barrel shouldn't be harder to break than an exterior metal firedoor currently is.

[Andrew Cermak]

Also, keep in mind that Joe Average has an 8 STR, not 10, per 6E1 p. 438. 10 is what PCs start at, but PCs are assumed to be Noteworthy at the very least.

 

That puts Joe Average's Haymakers at 5 1/2 d6; he'll likely be interrupted long before he ever succeeds in kicking down a 10 PD door. In fact, I'd start levying Long Term Endurance charges if he kept at it for long.

[GhostDancer]

I have all the muscle tone of over-cooked spaghetti and I've kicked in metal doors set in metal frames. The catch was engaged, but not the deadbolt, like bigbywolfe stated.

....bigbywolfe is silly.

[Lucius]

One way to model objects so they resist "normal" damage better is to give them all (by default as a house rule) an extra amount of PD/ED equal to their normal rPD/rED. This way' date=' they resist "normal" damage attacks with essentially twice the defense, but killing attacks still affect them normally. This would help keep punches and the like from doing what you do not want them to do to metal doors.[/quote']

 

Nice idea, but it also disregards the fact that some things are easier to break with a hammer, or even naked strength, than a knife. If I have to get through a door, I'm more likely to try kicking it down than attacking with, say, a butcher knife.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Or I could use a palindromedary

[bigbywolfe]

I have all the muscle tone of over-cooked spaghetti and I've kicked in metal doors set in metal frames. The catch was engaged, but not the deadbolt, like bigbywolfe stated.

Hey, you posted the FSM's picture.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

[Michael Hopcroft]

Remember Rule #6 in role-playing games: the gamemaster always has the right to say no. He never has to allow you to do anything that is logically impossible.

Not only did I not get my reference right, but I missed the most important reason not to mention Rule #6....