New Toys

[Sean Waters]

A recent thread about how to model gravity got me thinking: whilst you can do almost anything in Hero, it is often very difficult to model specific concepts, like gravity.  In such situations I think it would improve the system to have a shorthand way of doing that, either a now power or a modification to an old one.  There is clear authority for doing this, if you look at the Advanced Players Guide and such.

 

So, are there any abilities that you would like to see modelled by the system that it either can not do at present, or is so fiddly to do that it might justify a new power.

 

One suggestion I have is the ability to activate someone else’s power.  You CAN do this at present, either by some sort of mind control, or possibly Transform (or UAA EDM to the Place Of Powers Constantly Going Off).  It got me thinking because I did not want, particularly, for the attack to be a mind control, and building it other ways gets quite fiddly.

 

It would be something dispel, only if you exceed the active points, the power turns on, not off.  If the power has an END cost, the attacker has to pay it.  If it runs on charges, the attacker has to pay the END cost for the active points, and it uses a charge.  In all other respects it acts as if the owner had activated it.  It is normally very difficult to ‘aim’ an activated ranged attack, but the GM might let you try, depending on the circumstances, and assessing a reasonable penalty.

 

This could be quite quirky, but also, potentially, useful: if your healer is unconscious you can still access her power.  If an opponent is charging you and you activate their Barrier power, they smack into it.  Fun could be had with stretching.

 

Generally, subject to something amusing occurring to the GM, the power just turns on at maximum effect.  The owner of a constant power can turn the power off again as normal on their next phase.  instant powers go off then stop, Uncontrolled powers remain in effect unless the build allows the owner to turn them off after activation.

 

Any other ideas?

[NuSoardGraphite]

I actually enjoy the challenge of using the systems current power structure to design odd or unique abilities from. keeps knowlwdge of the system sharp and encourages out of the box thinking, which i think we need more of in general.

 

Maybe a time stop power would be appreciated. as the system stands now, i can model a very. effective time stop effect but it is very, very expensive to do properly. (Area of effect speed drain or suppress, personal immunity, transdimensional)

[Sean Waters]

I think my issue is that some effects are not enormously combat effective, but are still expensive to model in terms, at least, of active points.  The ability to suffocate someone, for example, is a nightmare to model if you want to mirror the rules for suffocation, yet it is not that effective a tool in combat; for the points you would have to spend on it, you would be far, far more effective just buying a really big Blast.

 

Time Stop is a good example.  Mind you, we will then have to have a discussion about what it actually does: can you cut the throat of someone who is TimeStopped?  Move TimeStopped objects?  Are they actually frozen in time, or are you just moving incredibly quickly?

 

Never easy, is it?

[Christougher]

I agree with using the system to create new toys.  Or even to pull apart old ones and put them back together differently.

 

A couple thoughts: Separating Entangle into parts that stop movement and stop attacks.  Partly from the desire to duplicate 'mez' effects from MMOs.  Changing the cost/ratio of DEF/BODY (For 5E, dunno if 6E changed it), since DEF is more effective than Body, high DEF even moreso.  Recreating Elemental Controls as an inverted form of Multipowers (AP/5 or AP/10 pool). 

 

Chris.

[bigbywolfe]

I think my issue is that some effects are not enormously combat effective, but are still expensive to model in terms, at least, of active points. The ability to suffocate someone, for example, is a nightmare to model if you want to mirror the rules for suffocation, yet it is not that effective a tool in combat; for the points you would have to spend on it, you would be far, far more effective just buying a really big Blast.

 

Time Stop is a good example. Mind you, we will then have to have a discussion about what it actually does: can you cut the throat of someone who is TimeStopped? Move TimeStopped objects? Are they actually frozen in time, or are you just moving incredibly quickly?

 

Never easy, is it?

Suffocation is easily done with Change Environment. It was an option introduced in one of the 5E Power books.

[Sean Waters]

Suffocation is easily done with Change Environment. It was an option introduced in one of the 5E Power books.

 

Exactly my point: the system is officially willing to allow meta-effects as a combined cost item, because the actual cost and complexity of duplicating them is substantial.  That might lead one to conclude that a way forward - even if it only in options books - is to create a meta-effect, almost a talent build for specific powers.

 

The same was done for stunning, and that is much easier to build, so it does not even have to be THAT much of a complicated build.  The problem with building stunning is that it is such an open ended effect: an actual build would have to be done as something that caused a stun loss only for the purposes of stunning, and getting sufficient stun through the panoply of possible defences is expensive, especially in sufficient quantity to exceed any reasonable CON.  In fact it probably is functionally impossible unless you completely abandon the idea of active costs as something to keep an eye on.  It would certainly work out more expensive than the Change Environment option, even as a real cost.

 

To an extent, Hero does not go far enough in defining its own building blocks.  We already have meta-effects: Telekinesis is a good example, as is the one identified above by Christoughter: Entangle.  I'm not suggesting a back to basics approach, but it would be good to get an idea of the relative costs of such effects.

 

That then leads to the question of absolutes.  Another time, perhaps...

[Christougher]

Well, for Stunning (and breaking the game system) consider Dispel vs Stun.  Sure, /officially/ you can't do that.  But if you could?  

 

Cost?  3 AP/d6, halved effect for it being a defense..21 AP to Stun a normal, 60 AP to Stun a 35 CON brick.  Not that bad.

 

And because it's a Dispel, the effect instantly resumes on the target's next action (more or less).  Which means no real Stun loss, other than what is inflicted on them by others while Stunned.

 

Chris.

[Grailknight]

Well, for Stunning (and breaking the game system) consider Dispel vs Stun.  Sure, /officially/ you can't do that.  But if you could?  

 

Cost?  3 AP/d6, halved effect for it being a defense..21 AP to Stun a normal, 60 AP to Stun a 35 CON brick.  Not that bad.

 

And because it's a Dispel, the effect instantly resumes on the target's next action (more or less).  Which means no real Stun loss, other than what is inflicted on them by others while Stunned.

 

Chris.

 

 

An interesting(but illegal) idea. However wouldn't that have to knock the target out since Dispel is all or nothing. 

[Christougher]

An interesting(but illegal) idea. However wouldn't that have to knock the target out since Dispel is all or nothing. 

 

Did you not bother to read the rest of the thread, or the fact that I *admitted* that in the second sentence?  This is about playing with the rules, and a part of that is suspending or ignoring silly little things like it being illegal.

 

Fair point about it trying to KO instead of just Stun.  The original intent was to Stun, and this seemed like a fair answer.  It also seems more balanced to just stun than a one-shot temporary knockout.

 

Chris.

[Uthanar]

Chris, I like that build a bit.  The cost might at first seem a bit low, but then realizing it is doing no damage but just costing an action can be something useful.  What it made me think of was the gust of wind that takes a moment to recover from.  Not so much damaging as disorienting. 

[Sean Waters]

That works

 

It still assumes that someone with a high CON will be better at resisting it (but so does the Stunning adder for CE...).

 

I'd probably make it cost more, not have a defence, but require that the purchaser defines one, possibly with some sort of cost break depending on how common the defence is.  Anyway.  Details.

 

Other stuff I'd like to see: an adder for invisibility so that whatever you are invisible to can not affect you.  So, if you are invisible to normal vision, IR and UV light, an IR laser will pass straight through you.  None of this limited defences nonsense, especially with the ridiculously poor cost breaks allowed for such things.    I can already hear some of you plotting your 'invisible to touch' character.  I don't care if it can be abused, that is why we have GMs.

 

I'd like the ability to nullify mass.  I jump off a building, fall to the ground at terminal velocity, the nullify my mass as I hit and simply stop dead.  But not dead.  Someone punches me, I nullify their mass and, unless they are braced against something, they fly off, not hurting me at all.  That's a hard one to do in the present system.  Hardish, anyway: I can only think of a couple of ways to do it off the top of my head.

 

I would like to be able to increase mass too.

 

I'd like to be able to turn off friction.

 

I'd like to be able to completely ignore the effects of fire and heat.

 

I'd like to be able to teleport an enemy into a solid object.

 

I'd like a power that makes it incredibly difficult to move me.  (Speaking of which, why is KBR so expensive?  Forget that - another time.)

 

Lots of stuff.  Sure you CAN do it, given an unlimited point budget and a half ton of Handwavium ore, but why make it so difficult?

[Christougher]

Lots of stuff.  Sure you CAN do it, given an unlimited point budget and a half ton of Handwavium ore, but why make it so difficult?

 

Cause that's what makes it fun?

 

Invisibility - cheesy, but might make it an interesting hack or rebuild of desolid.

 

Most of the rest of that just looks like SFX of existing powers, not a need for new ones.

 

Your mention of Invisibility reminds me of my favorite hack.  Take the +10 Protects Carried adder, and add it to Invisibility, Desolid, Growth, Shrinking, etcetera etcetera...

 

Chris.

[Grailknight]

Did you not bother to read the rest of the thread, or the fact that I *admitted* that in the second sentence?  This is about playing with the rules, and a part of that is suspending or ignoring silly little things like it being illegal.

 

Fair point about it trying to KO instead of just Stun.  The original intent was to Stun, and this seemed like a fair answer.  It also seems more balanced to just stun than a one-shot temporary knockout.

 

Chris.

 

Sorry, no offense or criticism was meant, was just acknowledging your admission.

[Grailknight]

That works

 

It still assumes that someone with a high CON will be better at resisting it (but so does the Stunning adder for CE...).

 

I'd probably make it cost more, not have a defence, but require that the purchaser defines one, possibly with some sort of cost break depending on how common the defence is.  Anyway.  Details.

 

Other stuff I'd like to see: an adder for invisibility so that whatever you are invisible to can not affect you.  So, if you are invisible to normal vision, IR and UV light, an IR laser will pass straight through you.  None of this limited defences nonsense, especially with the ridiculously poor cost breaks allowed for such things.    I can already hear some of you plotting your 'invisible to touch' character.  I don't care if it can be abused, that is why we have GMs.

 

I'd like the ability to nullify mass.  I jump off a building, fall to the ground at terminal velocity, the nullify my mass as I hit and simply stop dead.  But not dead.  Someone punches me, I nullify their mass and, unless they are braced against something, they fly off, not hurting me at all.  That's a hard one to do in the present system.  Hardish, anyway: I can only think of a couple of ways to do it off the top of my head.

 

I would like to be able to increase mass too.

 

I'd like to be able to turn off friction.

 

I'd like to be able to completely ignore the effects of fire and heat.

 

I'd like to be able to teleport an enemy into a solid object.

 

I'd like a power that makes it incredibly difficult to move me.  (Speaking of which, why is KBR so expensive?  Forget that - another time.)

 

Lots of stuff.  Sure you CAN do it, given an unlimited point budget and a half ton of Handwavium ore, but why make it so difficult?

 

The Invisibility immunity is something that makes sense but is hard to implement as part of Invisibility. Sounds perfect for a limited desolid tho.

 

The rest would follow the reasoning from effect metarule. I can see a way to do all of these with the existing rules . Some are expensive, many take a compound power but they are doable.

 

As an aside,I don't think nullifying mass would do that. You'd impart no force to your landing spot but would still have the instantaneous deacceleration to deal with. Same with them hitting you, you'd take no damage but there'd be no force to bounce them back.  I think you want to redirect kinetic energy.

[Sean Waters]

......

 

As an aside,I don't think nullifying mass would do that. You'd impart no force to your landing spot but would still have the instantaneous deacceleration to deal with. Same with them hitting you, you'd take no damage but there'd be no force to bounce them back.  I think you want to redirect kinetic energy.

 

Question for the physicists, but my take is that if you have no mass, your internal organs have no mass either.  No mass = no momentum.  You can still move, you just do not apply force to anything you hit, and so there is no reaction force either, and the bits inside you do not squidge against your outside when you stop, so no dying.  Of course you would need to have some legacy mass or you would travel very fast indeed.  Also, wind is going to be a problem

 

Someone could still grab your arm and hit you, or back you against a wall and hit you.

[Sean Waters]

Cause that's what makes it fun?

 

Invisibility - cheesy, but might make it an interesting hack or rebuild of desolid.

 

Most of the rest of that just looks like SFX of existing powers, not a need for new ones.

 

Your mention of Invisibility reminds me of my favorite hack.  Take the +10 Protects Carried adder, and add it to Invisibility, Desolid, Growth, Shrinking, etcetera etcetera...

 

Chris.

 

 

To an extent.  Creating an interesting one off is fun.  Repeating the process a lot gives diminishing returns.  Character creation is part of he fun, but playing the game is more of the fun and messy builds can get in the way of that.

 

You probably can build it all with bits from other powers, but it will look awful.  The 'near zero mass' thing is really messy and expensive to emulate without actually being that powerful.  The other problem with building things from other bits is that you will run into logical inconsistency.

 

Example.  The cheapest way to nullify falling damage is to use a 1" triggered teleport with the adder? advantage? that momentum is not preserved.  Define that as reducing mass to virtually zero, and you are good, by modifying your body's relationship to with the underlying quantum field.

 

Well, you are until someone hits you with a teleport drain.  Then, suddenly, it stops working, even though the power has nothing to do with teleport.  I mean you can handwave it, but where do you stop?  Once you get into the swing of handwaving everything you don't like, it gets harder and harder to stop.  That undermines the rest of the rule system.  That is why, despite all my bitching, I play Hero by the rules as written.  That is why I'd like to see rules for stuff I'd like to be able to do and can't, at least not easily or logically or at a reasonable 'price'.

[Christougher]

Sorry, no offense or criticism was meant, was just acknowledging your admission.

 

Then I owe you an apology for getting snippy.  I guess you just hit the proverbial straw.

 

It's just lately forum responses the text (since we have no tone) reads to me like people just aren't reading what was written.

 

No blood, no foul.

 

Chris.

[Christougher]

You probably can build it all with bits from other powers, but it will look awful.  The 'near zero mass' thing is really messy and expensive to emulate without actually being that powerful.  The other problem with building things from other bits is that you will run into logical inconsistency.

 

I think part of the problem lies in being able to quantify what those effects mean in game terms.  Which kinda comes about from the bits and pieces approach.  And leads to frankenpowers like Density Increase and 6E Growth.

 

Which, speaking of Density Increase...  One player tried a hack that involved /selling back/ some of his normal density.  Don't recall it working anything like what you want, but it's an interesting line of logical thought to follow that might lead you there.

 

Chris.

[Sean Waters]

I think part of the problem lies in being able to quantify what those effects mean in game terms.  Which kinda comes about from the bits and pieces approach.  And leads to frankenpowers like Density Increase and 6E Growth.

 

Which, speaking of Density Increase...  One player tried a hack that involved /selling back/ some of his normal density.  Don't recall it working anything like what you want, but it's an interesting line of logical thought to follow that might lead you there.

 

Chris.

 

Players are endlessly inventive when it comes to this sort of thing

 

You are right about quantification, that will always be an issue, and there is bound to be dispute over how a zero mass character would interact with the world.  I still like the idea though: must give it a ponder.

[Vanguard]

The only power/ability that sticks out in my mind (at the moment), is Two-Weapon Fighting.

 

That power's build/construction never set right with me due to the rulling that it's "just a version of sweep".

 

Those simple words turns it from a useful ability to something that's pretty much a death sentence (or point sink) for it's users.

[Christougher]

Players are endlessly inventive when it comes to this sort of thing

 

You are right about quantification, that will always be an issue, and there is bound to be dispute over how a zero mass character would interact with the world.  I still like the idea though: must give it a ponder.

 

It would be interesting to build it on a sliding scale as the inverse of Density Increase, especially if they could just be done as a single power.  

 

And according to Narf, zero mass isn't the /mathematical/ end of that scale.  In theory, negative mass would add force to anything contacting it.

 

Leading of course to a great new weapon for my Master of Orion game, the Negative Mass Driver.  

 

Chris.

[Sean Waters]

Presumably, with negative mass, the less force you apply to it, the faster it goes.  Hmm...inverse KB...

 

I'm reading a book at the moment called Redemption Ark by Alastair Reynolds.  he is pushing the theory that mass is a property of the underlying quantum field and that it can be decoupled from objects if you can modulate the field correctly.  Very dangerous to do that, apparently.  You might accidentally decouple time and never have existed.

[Narf the Mouse]

Negative mass exerts negative gravity, which exerts a negative pull on a positive mass (which sums to a push). Positive mass exerts positive gravity on a negative mass, which, once you work through some math, sums to a pull.

 

The end result, if you position a positive mass near a negative mass, is for the negative mass to push the positive mass, and the positive mass to pull the negative mass, which produces indefinite, "0 energy transfer" acceleration without a change in the momentum.in the system. The end result is that, after an arbitrary time, the system has achieved an arbitrary velocity, with zero change in momentum.

 

Also, if they ever touched each other, the positive and negative mass in contact would annihilate each other without a release of energy.

 

The math is left as an exercise for the reader; I've had my fun here.

 

Or you could Google it.

 

However, negative mass is "exotic matter" and there is no known means to achieve exotic matter without exotic matter. However, negative energy *may* be possible, and matter is just energy in a stable form...

[Sean Waters]

Yes, but F=MV, so a negative mass would impart a negative velocity if a positive force were applied; back to negative KB.  You punch someone and they fly toward you.  Lovely.  Tricky to model, but lovely.  Some sort of triggered flight, perhaps, proportional to the KB but twice the amount (or KBR+triggered flight)

 

Not convinced (I did Google it) that a positive and negative mass would achieve an arbitrary velocity.  It would either be zero (relative) or would never happen: a net positive mass would result in attraction that would end with the objects in contact and at relative rest.  A net negative mass would result in repulsion which would push the objects apart and, in an otherwise empty universe they would continue to accelerate apart forever* (albeit at a decreasing rate of acceleration) and a net zero mass would result in a zero relative movement (again).  In every case, whatever happened, momentum would be conserved.

 

 

 

*Unless gravity is quantum, in which case there would be an eventual velocity stabilisation.

[Narf the Mouse]

Yes, but F=MV, so a negative mass would impart a negative velocity if a positive force were applied; back to negative KB.  You punch someone and they fly toward you.  Lovely.  Tricky to model, but lovely.  Some sort of triggered flight, perhaps, proportional to the KB but twice the amount (or KBR+triggered flight)

 

Not convinced (I did Google it) that a positive and negative mass would achieve an arbitrary velocity.  It would either be zero (relative) or would never happen: a net positive mass would result in attraction that would end with the objects in contact and at relative rest.  A net negative mass would result in repulsion which would push the objects apart and, in an otherwise empty universe they would continue to accelerate apart forever* (albeit at a decreasing rate of acceleration) and a net zero mass would result in a zero relative movement (again).  In every case, whatever happened, momentum would be conserved.

 

 

 

*Unless gravity is quantum, in which case there would be an eventual velocity stabilisation.

I should have noted that the "arbitrary velocity" solution only works if both objects have the same absolute (positive or negative) mass. And this line: "...with zero change in momentum." notes that the net momentum will be zero. However, in this case, a net zero momentum is not a net zero velocity with respect to the rest of the universe - Caveat that no actual testing has been done, just math by people who (seem to) know a lot more about physics than me. In this "special case", it appears that velocity and momentum are decoupled.

 

You can also work through the Newtonian equations yourself (a simple sum of velocity * mass/negative mass on both sides, then addition should do it), and, if you want, the Einsteinian equations (Although I have no idea what happens to Yotta when your mass is negative).

 

According to an online calculator, relativity gives you a bunch of NaN's with negative mass. OTOH, that's an online calculator, not a physicist. It could be that the end result is X + 0i, which would still put you in the known universe.