Little clarity needed - DCV vs AoEs, Accurate advantage

[DasBroot]

The way we've been handling AoE's vs DCV so far:

 

1 Pick target hex.

2 OCV attack roll vs hex's DCV 3 (0 if within 2 meters of attacker) as per Champions Complete pg 145

3 If the hex is hit, or close enough for the AoE to interact with the target(s) desired make a second OCV roll vs target's DCV

 

The confusion arises due to the wording on Dive for Cover (pg 153). "Unlike Dodge, Dive for Cover gives a chance to evade both attacks that target an Area and attacks that target individuals"  

 

That said, nowhere under Dodge (pg 149), which is a flat DCV bonus, does it say it doesn't apply to AoE attacks that catch the character in their radius.

 

One of my players is speculating that hitting the hex is the only attack roll, and that if you're in said AoE and don't want to be blasted you'd best do something about it - ie: why would Kinetic's DCV allow him to stand next to a time bomb that goes off.  It's a logical argument (which has nothing to do with game design, often) and nowhere under AoE on pg 145 does it say anything about making a second attack roll.

 

The way we've been doing it makes Accurate really handy (you had a DCV 12 from dodging. Too bad it's now effectively 3. Should have Dove for Cover instead.)

 

The other way makes it useful in less situations (you had a DCV 12 from dodging but since I'm targeting your hex it's effectively 3 anyways. At least I didn't blast the hostage you were holding or the team mate in melee.)

 

We're fine either way (or a third way I'm just not getting).  Just want to do it right (and yes, Accurate is an advantage said player has on his character).

 

edit: Everything under AoE on pg 97-98 seems to back my initial interpretation up, but 'Non-selective' kind of muddies the water - how would an AoE that didn't take Non-selective or Selective function? Is one of those targeting types mandatory? Etc.

[Lucius]

 (or a third way I'm just not getting).

 

1) For Area of Effect, Accurate: Roll vs DCV of 3 (0 if adjacent.) If the target Dives for Cover, they're safe. One target.

 

Number of attack rolls: One

 

2) For Area of Effect, Nonselective:Roll vs DCV for the hex. If miss, use "scatter" rules and find out where it DID hit.  Then figure out where exactly is covered by the Area. Against ALL potential targets in Area, roll vs their personal DCV.  Diving for Cover and escaping the Area means not getting hit.

 

Number of attack rolls: One PLUS One for each target in the Area

 

3) For Area of Effect, Selective:Roll vs DCV for the hex. If miss, use "scatter" rules and find out where it DID hit.  Then figure out where exactly is covered by the Area. Against all targets in Area that you choose to hit, roll vs their personal DCV.  Diving for Cover and escaping the Area means not getting hit.

 

Number of attack rolls: One, PLUS One for each target in the Area

 

4) For Area of Effect, THAT IS NEITHER SELECTIVE NOR NONSELECTIVE :Roll vs DCV for the hex. If miss, use "scatter" rules and find out where it DID hit.  Then figure out where exactly is covered by the Area. ALL THOSE TARGETS ARE HIT unless they successfully Dive for Cover out of the area.

 

Number of attack rolls: ONE

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Diving for Cover behind the palindromedary

[Ndreare]

Lucius nailed it, but for clarity I will add in most situations one room to hit followed by one roll for damage.

 

Rolling twice to hit would really suck for an advantage that reduces you to 8 do from 12d6.

[Hyper-Man]

Please tell us more about the character's AOE Accurate attack and its special effect.

 

 

I've used AOE Accurate on a Hand To Hand Attack to represent 'superspeed attacks' for Flash and Superman.

• The attack can still be Blocked per the normal rules.
• The target's DCV is replaced with the default 3 DCV.  This CAN be increased by a Dodge and can also be increased by any CSL's that can be applied to a Dodge. 
• The defender also has the option to Dive For Cover.

[Christopher]

1) For Area of Effect, Accurate: Roll vs DCV of 3 (0 if adjacent.) If the target Dives for Cover, they're safe. One target.

 

Number of attack rolls: One

 

2) For Area of Effect, Nonselective:Roll vs DCV for the hex. If miss, use "scatter" rules and find out where it DID hit.  Then figure out where exactly is covered by the Area. Against ALL potential targets in Area, roll vs their personal DCV.  Diving for Cover and escaping the Area means not getting hit.

 

Number of attack rolls: Two

 

3) For Area of Effect, Selective:Roll vs DCV for the hex. If miss, use "scatter" rules and find out where it DID hit.  Then figure out where exactly is covered by the Area. Against all targets in Area that you choose to hit, roll vs their personal DCV.  Diving for Cover and escaping the Area means not getting hit.

 

Number of attack rolls: Two

 

4) For Area of Effect, THAT IS NEITHER SELECTIVE NOR NONSELECTIVE :Roll vs DCV for the hex. If miss, use "scatter" rules and find out where it DID hit.  Then figure out where exactly is covered by the Area. ALL THOSE TARGETS ARE HIT unless they successfully Dive for Cover out of the area.

 

Number of attack rolls: ONE

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Diving for Cover behind the palindromedary

Mostly I agree, except for Selective and Non-Selective. It's not 2 Attacks rolls. It's 1+1 per Target. (a seperate attack roll for each target).

 

The main purpose of an AoE is to allow you to hit more then one foe at once, if they are close enough together. The secondary purpose is to hit Target's easier (you only need to roll against DCV 3).

The main weakness is that AoE attacks deal less damage. AoE counts as "advantage relevant for the DC calcuation", so a 12D6 Blast and a 8D6 Blast, AoE (+1/2) both count as having 12 DC (for purposes like campaign limits and adding DC). As such they are much more likely to affect the target, but since AoE's have less dice for same cost they tend to be bad against targets with high defenses.

Thus thier primary purpose is to deny areas to foes, disable groups of low point enenmies (mooks in superheroics) and take down the occasional low-defense-high-CV characters (Martial Artists and Speedsters in Superheroic settings).

 

The pure Advantage:

Rolls once agaisnt DCV 3 or 0 (to hit the hex)

Affects everyone in it's area, friend, foe, even the user himself.

It does not grow weaker the farther you are the center point.

The only defense is Dive for Cover*

 

You can modify it from there:

Non-Selective (-1/4):

Instead of automatically affecting everyone in the area, you have to roll a seperate attack roll against each targets personal DCV, modifeid by the Range modifier for that target. You cannot choose to skip targets in the area.

In addition to Dive for Cover (to get out of the area), Dodge and CSL can be used to boost your personal DCV. One variant of Block might als be effectve, based on the Special Effects involved.

It is still affecting friends and the user alike, if they get caught in the area (but if you know you and your allies have high DCV or block the 'right" way when the attack goes off this might be less of an issue).

 

Selective (+1/4):

This is the 6E1 "no friendly fire" varriant of Non-Selective.

You can choose who in the area you want to affect. But against those you choose you have to roll as noted under Non-Selective.

 

Accurate Selective (+3/4; APG I 134)

This works a bit like selective (you can choose who in the area you want to affect), but without having to Roll against those targets you do select. Think "no friendly fire".

 

Accurate (+1/4; usually bought with minal Area)

You hit an area. This Advantage allows you to affect a single target of your choosing in that area. No extra rolls are needed against that target - just getting it in the area is enough. Downside is that you cannot affect more then one target (for that use Accurate Selective or Non-Selective) this way.

6E1 says the target "cannot block or dodge" the attack. Nothing in the APG's or Errata says differently (so I have to disagree with what Hyperman says about blocking it). Dive for Cover is the only defense against AoE Accurate and that is the very purpose of it.

I earlier spoke of attacks vs "low-defense-high-cv-targets". This is the advantage just against them. When you take "Area Of Effect (1m Radius Accurate; +1/2)" what you end up is basically a Single Target attack with "Rolls vs DCV 3, Cannot be blocked or Dodged(+1/2)" Advantage.

The HERO System Martial Arts books has a several Martial Arts powers based around this combination, all of them "unblockable/undodgeable" by name and description.

 

 

*Keep in mind that you can generally only use one of those 4 Defensive Actions at once: Dodge, Dive for Cover, Block vs HTH, Block vs Ranged. And dive for cover leaves you vulnerable to anything you could dogde or block. Also, after you aborted to one kind of defense you are stuck with it until you can abort again.

 

 

Regading Dive for Covers "ability to dodge attacks that target individuals":

Afaik it is technically allowed to use Dive for Cover against non-AoE attacks. The only time it makes sense is agaisnt HTH-Attacks. Asuming normal reach (1m) or being on the edge of the enemy reach, moving 1-2m away would make the attack miss, regardless of OCV/DCV involved.

But in general it is not a good idea. Dodges +3DCV decreases the enemies chance to hit by 30%. Dive for Cover makes the attack almost auto-miss (a DEX roll at -1 is all you need), but halves your DCV for being on the ground for followup attacks.

It's the kind of "last ditch" Dodge wich in the Source Material ends with the enemy hitting you next attack  Or put you in the Cover Maneuver (Sword at the throath). But if you are the guy expecting reinforcements this might just be the one attack you need to survive.

[Lucius]

Mostly I agree, except for Selective and Non-Selective. It's not 2 Attacks rolls. It's 1+1 per Target. (a seperate attack roll for each target).

 

 

 

Noted and edited. Thank you. The thread title said "Little clarity needed" and I'm sure many will agree I often provide little clarity.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants to know, if it has an attack with "One Hex Accurate" and uses it to BLOCK, does it roll against an OCV of 3?

[Hyper-Man]

...

 

Accurate (+1/4; usually bought with minal Area)

You hit an area. This Advantage allows you to affect a single target of your choosing in that area. No extra rolls are needed against that target - just getting it in the area is enough. Downside is that you cannot affect more then one target (for that use Accurate Selective or Non-Selective) this way.

6E1 says the target "cannot block or dodge" the attack. Nothing in the APG's or Errata says differently (so I have to disagree with what Hyperman says about blocking it). Dive for Cover is the only defense against AoE Accurate and that is the very purpose of it.

I earlier spoke of attacks vs "low-defense-high-cv-targets". This is the advantage just against them. When you take "Area Of Effect (1m Radius Accurate; +1/2)" what you end up is basically a Single Target attack with "Rolls vs DCV 3, Cannot be blocked or Dodged(+1/2)" Advantage.

The HERO System Martial Arts books has a several Martial Arts powers based around this combination, all of them "unblockable/undodgeable" by name and description.

 

 

....

 

I think this is covered in the Hero System Martial Arts book.  I'll find the relevant quote for you when I get home later tonight.

[DasBroot]

Ok, so it looks like I was slapping non-selective on to every AoE that wasn't explicitly something else.  That does clear things up.

 

As for the character using accurate (which we were using correctly) - it's a sonic implosion grenade.  The grenade hits the hex and then attracts sonic waves powerful enough to do damage to hammer the target from all directions at once.  It's conceptually the shakiest of his 5 attack powers (a cone, a single target blast, a penetrating hand to hand attack, an NND keyed to life support: does not eat ("You seriously put thought into a brown note ray?"), and the accurate AoE) in his 60 point sonic weaponry multipower.

 

He dislikes the power conceptually so now that it's clear his beloved cone attack (which is unmodified) should be attacking DCV 3 most times he'll probably ask to ditch it and get the points back to reinvest in a different attack for the pool.  The cone only does stun damage and his character's attitude is 'better a migraine than a morgue' so he's used it on people holding hostages before, anyways (and the brick gets caught in the area at least once a fight).

[Hyper-Man]

Well, this is one more area that the rules have changed from editions.  The suggestions I was referring to were from the 5er.  I can find no equivalent suggestions in any 6e books.

 

From 5er page 248:

 

Accurate: For a -0 Limitation, Accurate, a character can define an Area Of Effect (One Hex) as automatically targeting only a single person, regardless of how many there are in the hex. This makes the Power work against DCV 3 without having to affect possible large numbers of persons. The Range Modifier applies to Accurate attacks normally.

Targets may Dodge Accurate attacks; they do not have to use Dive For Cover to avoid them. The bonuses from the Dodge (or Martial Dodge) add to the base DCV 3, and the character can apply relevant Combat Skill Levels to increase his DCV if he wants. He may not apply defensive CSLs unless he Dodges or takes some other defensive action. Similarly, if he wants to obtain any bonuses from Concealment or the like, he has to Dodge or take other active steps to get them.

 

 

Also from the 5e FAQ:

 

Q: On 5E 159, the rules say a character can Dodge an Area Of Effect (One Hex Accurate) attack. Do the Dodge DCV bonuses add to the base DCV of 3? Can you apply any other DCV bonuses (Skill Levels, Martial Maneuvers, and so on)?

A: Yes, and yes.

...

Q: If you Dodge an Area Of Effect (One Hex Accurate) attack, do you get your full DCV in addition to the Dodge bonuses?

A: No. You add the Dodge bonuses (plus CSLs and the like, if applicable) to the base DCV of 3.

...

Q:  If a character is attacked with an Area Of Effect (One Hex Accurate) attack, and he has Combat Skill Levels (or the like) that could improve his DCV, do they automatically improve his DCV, or can he only apply them if he takes some specifically defensive action, like Dodging?

A:  He can only apply them if he takes some specifically defensive action, like Dodging. He can’t apply any DCV bonuses he has just because he has them. The same applies to bonuses from Concealment and the like.

 

 

Personally, I would probably house-rule these into a 6e game.

[bigbywolfe]

It seems like the FAQ answers assume that the optional -0 Limitation is in place though.  I think it could easily depend on the campaign and SFX in question if an Accurate AoE was Dodge-able or not.

[NuSoardGraphite]

They need to de-couple Accurate from Area of Effect. "Accurate" can be it's own advantage. and i think it could be made with more granularity than what it currently uses. (Attack an opponent at 1/2 dcv, 3 dcv or 0 dcv for +1/2, +3/4 or +1 advantage)

[Christopher]

They need to de-couple Accurate from Area of Effect. "Accurate" can be it's own advantage. and i think it could be made with more granularity than what it currently uses. (Attack an opponent at 1/2 dcv, 3 dcv or 0 dcv for +1/2, +3/4 or +1 advantage)

I can agree that the AoE rules are perhaps not the best place for Accurate and you can always use an alias Advtage for "AoE (1m, Accurate)" in your writeups. But I think you overprice it.

Right now 3 DCV is at +1/2 advantage. Wich is lowering the Damage output quite a bit.

Increasing the 3 DCV level to +3/4 seems to go overboard*.

And instead of the step from 3 DCV to 0 DCV you might just get 3 2-point-CSL.

 

*+3/4 version would only get 7d6 at 61 AP. Wich only deals 7 BODY and 24.5 STUN average.

[Hyper-Man]

They need to de-couple Accurate from Area of Effect. "Accurate" can be it's own advantage. and i think it could be made with more granularity than what it currently uses. (Attack an opponent at 1/2 dcv, 3 dcv or 0 dcv for +1/2, +3/4 or +1 advantage)

 

How?

Accurate is just an option to make sure only ONE target inside of an Area of Effect is actually hit. It modifies AOE therefore it doesn't do anything on its own.

 

Even if a *new mechanic was created to do what you describe (enforce penalties to DCV) the current mechanic would still be needed.

 

*Penalty Skill Levels UAA?