Poisons & Diseases: NND vs. Drain

[Armitage]

During a recent thread discussing Classes of Minds, someone expressed the opinion that if someone is resistant to mental powers due to having a mind significantly different than a human’s then they should buy Mental Defense with “Computer Mind” or “Alien Mind” as the special effect, rather than gaining complete immunity to mental powers by virtue of saying “I’m a robot” or “I’m an alien”.

 

They also felt that drugs, poisons, and diseases should be built as Drains instead of NNDs, and Life Support vs. Poison or Disease should be replaced by Power Defense. 

I’m curious if anyone has actually done this in a game and how well it worked.

 

Random thoughts:

 

One obvious advantage is that you can create characters that are resistant to these attacks instead of having all-or-nothing immunity.  You can also create attacks powerful enough to affect characters that are immune to conventional attacks.

“Even with my healing factor, it feels like my guts have been dipped in acid.”

 

By the book, a defense that Only Works Against Poison is –3/4 and the Advanced Player’s Guide lists Biological Attacks and Poison as both Uncommon.

 

Only Works Against Poisons And Diseases; -1/2

Only Works Against Poisons/Diseases; -3/4

Only Works Against a Broad Group Of Poisons/Diseases; -1 (zootoxins, neurotoxins, bacteria, viruses)

Only Works Against A Narrow Group Of Related Poisons/Diseases; -1 1/2 (snake venom, organophosphates, bacilli, neurotropic viruses)

Only Works Against One Specific Poison/Disease; -2 (rattlesnake venom, sarin, pneumonic plague, rabies)

 

Exposure vectors would be represented by additional Limitations, found in various places in the Hero System Equipment Guide.

Inhaled: Does Not Work Against Targets With Life Support: Self-Contained Breathing (-1/2)

Ingested: Must Be Ingested (-1/2)

Contact: In the current rules, contact poisons are built with Trigger to create trapped objects, but if you’re spraying someone with an absorbed agent, it would probably be better represented by Skin Contact Required (-1) or Does Not Work Against Targets With Sealed Life Support (-1/2).

Injected: Killing Attack Must Do BODY (-1/2) or Must Target Unarmored Location (-1/4), depending on whether it’s delivered by a blade/bite or a non-damaging dart or hypodermic.

 

Since the effects of Drain on STUN and BODY are halved, lethal or knockout agents would require double the number of dice compared to a Blast or Killing Attack, but the lack of NND and Does BODY would balance it somewhat.

 

Rattlesnake Venom (existing rules)

RKA 1d6, NND (defense is Life Support [appropriate Immunity]; +1), Does BODY (+1); Damage Over Time (3 increments, one every 5 minutes for 15 minutes, defense only applies once, cannot be used again on same victim until all increments accrue (-0), Extra Time (onset time begins 5 Minutes after victim is bitten; -2), No Range (-1/2), HKA Must Do BODY (-1/2), Linked (-1/4), 4 Charges (-1).

45 Active Points, 8 Real Points

 

Rattlesnake Venom (variant rules)

Drain BODY 2d6, Delayed Return Rate (5 points/Week; +2 1/2), Damage Over Time (3 increments, one every 5 minutes for 15 minutes, cannot be used again on same victim until all increments accrue (-1/2), Extra Time (onset time begins 5 Minutes after victim is bitten; -2), No Range (-1/2), HKA Must Do BODY (-1/2), Linked (-1/4), 4 Charges (-1).

70 Active Points, 12 Real Points

 

I based the Return Rate on needing an average of a month to recover from the bite.  The STUN from the original attack is Recovered faster than it accumulates, so I made the Drain only affect BODY.  I removed “defense only applies once” because it’s no longer an all or nothing defense.  It could be added to create a compound that gradually wears down the target’s resistance.  A more virulent agent could also be created using Armor Piercing or the optional Piercing Adder.

 

7 Power Defense would protect from the average damage, while 12 Power Defense would provide complete immunity.

 

Using the Limitations above:

Power Defense, Only Against Poisons And Diseases (-1/2).  5 or 8 Real Points.

Power Defense, Only Against Poison (-3/4).  4 or 7 Real Points.

Power Defense, Only Against Zootoxins (-1).  3 or 6 Real Points.

Power Defense, Only Against Snake Venom (-1 1/2).  3 or 5 Real Points.

Power Defense, Only Against Rattlesnake Venom (-2).  2 or 4 Real Points.

 

 

[Hyper-Man]

The only potential issue I see is the implication that non-Limited Power Defense now takes on aspects of Life Support in this model.  I'm sure the details could be worked out but Power Defense is basically such a cheap ability it becomes really important for a GM to control what character's actually have access to it (via schtick preservation i'm guessing).

[Tasha]

That sounds like my Opinion. Diseases were made into NND Drains IMHO to make them scary to Champions Characters.

I Do think that Diseases/Poisons etc should be just plain Drains for Heroic Games. That allows GM's to do things like Partial Immunities, which are currently impossible with the Life Support/NND model. It does mean that Life Support would lose some stuff, but the darned power is way to over stuffed anyways. IMHO it should Go back to being about Not Breathing, Not Eating etc. Leave the damaging effects to Power Defense where they SHOULD be. A PC would buy Power Defense and limit it if the Player only wanted a specific immunity. I REALLY have developed a dislike for the few things are still absolutes in the system.

I haven't really run it in a game yet because I don't do much in the way of Diseases and Poisons usually.
 

[Christopher]

During a recent thread discussing Classes of Minds, someone expressed the opinion that if someone is resistant to mental powers due to having a mind significantly different than a human’s then they should buy Mental Defense with “Computer Mind” or “Alien Mind” as the special effect, rather than gaining complete immunity to mental powers by virtue of saying “I’m a robot” or “I’m an alien”.

That is a rather wierd missinterpretation of the Mind Class rules there. A Character with a Mindclass of "Robot" is not immune to mental Powers. It only shifts the Group of mental powers it is vulnerable too. If there are no Machine Controllers in the world (resulting in effective immunity), shifting from default to Robots is obviously not allowed.

By the same token, everyone (inlcuding Martian, Kryptioanians, Thanagerians, immortal Amazons and Normal Humans) would for me belong into the human group (wich might be better named default group here). The source material often even places PC/NPC Robots into the same mindclass as humans.

 

But the whole concept of Mind Classes was abolished in CC anyway (there it is solved via limitations, as far as I heard).

They also felt that drugs, poisons, and diseases should be built as Drains instead of NNDs, and Life Support vs. Poison or Disease should be replaced by Power Defense. 

I’m curious if anyone has actually done this in a game and how well it worked.

I have heard that some groups do use Power Defenses isntead of NND for things like "Dwarfs are Resistant to poision". Or "Resistance to cold/heat".

The main reason is the better granularity. But in general it is better suited for Heroic games then Superheroic ones.

 

For Superheroic games Life Support is rather unimportant. Most Life Support powers might fall under the "What not to spend points on" Rule for a lot of Superheroic Campaigns.

 

 

Regarding "Defense applies only once" on NND + Damage Over time:

Technically the rule contradict themself here. Life Support clearly states that "adding it late would prevent further damage, without curing any damage taken so far". If the attack however is built with "Defense applies only once" prevent further damage can not happen.

So I would never apply that Extra Advantage to a Damage over time power based on a NND defense. None of the Environmental effects in 6E2 seems bought with "Defense applies only once" either.

[Greywind]

Prof. X has a stated problem trying to read the mind of Carol Danvers. This is due to the mix of Human/Kree in her make-up since her exposure to the Psyche-Magnetron. I don't recall him having a problem reading the mind of a pure Kree.

[Armitage]

I Do think that Diseases/Poisons etc should be just plain Drains for Heroic Games. That allows GM's to do things like Partial Immunities,

 

 

 

I did toy with a way to do partial immunity with the NND model after Damage Over Time was introduced.  In 4e and 5e poisons were one big attack, with the damage applied gradually.  

4e rattlesnake venom was a 2d6 RKA with Gradual Effect-5 Hours.

5e rattlesnake venom was a 3d6 RKA with Gradual Effect-15 minutes.

 

When 6e introduced Damage Over Time, the venom became three separate 1d6 attacks happening every 5 minutes.  I had the idea of designing partial immunity as Life Support with an Activation Roll.  The roll is made to see if the Life Support activates for each damage increment, with some of the damage being neutralized and some affecting the character, depending on the result of the roll.

 

e.g.

Life Support-Immunity to Poison, 10- Activation Roll.  On average, this will result in a character taking half damage from poisons, since there's a 50% chance that the Life Support will activate for each damage increment.

 

The problem is that this doesn't give you a way to create things like engineered super-poisons that are so powerful that they can hurt people who are normally immune.  I suppose that you could Link a Change Environment that imposes an Activation Roll on the Life Support, but at that point you might as well just have the poison Suppress the Life Support.  It's not that many points.

 

Or you could go the somewhat lame route that Galactic Champions used.

"The Life Support rules specifically say that you're immune to all terrestrial poisons.  If you want to be immune to alien poisons too, you need to spend more points."

[Armitage]

By the same token, everyone (inlcuding Martian, Kryptioanians, Thanagerians, immortal Amazons and Normal Humans) would for me belong into the human group (wich might be better named default group here).

 

 

It can vary by game.  In the Classes of Mind thread, I described a story that someone had posted here on this forum years ago. 

A group of PCs had their "team origin" in response to an attack by a mentalist villain.  One of the PCs was completely immune to the villain's powers, significantly contributing to her defeat.  After the battle, the PC pulled back his hood, revealing that he was an elf. 

The reasoning was that an elf isn't human and the villain's powers only affected the Human class of minds.  I agree that that was taking it way too far. 

[Greywind]

The problem is that this doesn't give you a way to create things like engineered super-poisons that are so powerful that they can hurt people who are normally immune.

 

Actually, you can. GM's prerogative and/or plot device/necessity.

[bigbywolfe]

Actually, you can. GM's prerogative and/or plot device/necessity.

Not building a doomsday machine because it is "just a plot device" is one thing.  Using "it's a plot device" to ignore a defensive power a player paid points for and should be reasonably sure will work is quite another.  Especially if poisons in general don't come up that often (so one of the very few times it does their investment doesn't matter) and if no other characters have the same Life Support (so it feels like they are being specifically targeted).  Doesn't seem like the best approach to me.

[Greywind]

All I said was that it could be done.

[bigbywolfe]

Anything "can be" done by GM fiat.  My point was I don't believe this is an example of "should be".  That's all I was saying.

[NuSoardGraphite]

That sounds like my Opinion. Diseases were made into NND Drains IMHO to make them scary to Champions Characters.

 

I Do think that Diseases/Poisons etc should be just plain Drains for Heroic Games. That allows GM's to do things like Partial Immunities, which are currently impossible with the Life Support/NND model. It does mean that Life Support would lose some stuff, but the darned power is way to over stuffed anyways. IMHO it should Go back to being about Not Breathing, Not Eating etc. Leave the damaging effects to Power Defense where they SHOULD be. A PC would buy Power Defense and limit it if the Player only wanted a specific immunity. I REALLY have developed a dislike for the few things are still absolutes in the system.

 

I haven't really run it in a game yet because I don't do much in the way of Diseases and Poisons usually.

 

This is one of the reasons I support adding 100% to the Damage Reduction model to help represent things like complete immunity to a specific form of damage.  It would of course be a STOP sign power which the GM is advised to consider heavily restricting in his game.

 

Utilizing this model, one could build a character who was completely immune to poison or disease, or build a character that was 25%, 50% or 75% resistant.  And if you build Poison/Disease as Drain vs NND, that doesn't matter.  Still apply the Damage Reduction as normal.

[Zephrosyne]

I don't know if you know this or not, but the Advanced Player's Guide (pg. 87) has expanded Damage Reduction to 100 percent (along with other options such as an Advantage to ignore Damage Reduction).  The cost is double the 75 percent cost.

[Christopher]

The problem is that this doesn't give you a way to create things like engineered super-poisons that are so powerful that they can hurt people who are normally immune.  I suppose that you could Link a Change Environment that imposes an Activation Roll on the Life Support, but at that point you might as well just have the poison Suppress the Life Support.  It's not that many points.

There is a way to let them work against Target's with LS:All Posions. Don't run head first into the NDD Defense!

If you do not want a posion to be blocked by LS:Immunity to Poision, simply do not build it with NDD (LS: Immunity to Poision).

There will be one defense that will be low enough that it works similar to a NND defense: Power Defense. Just make it a plain Drain, isntead of a Drain, NDD.

 

One way to think of it is that LS only blocks stuff normal people have to contend with. It only blocks normal Poisons, normal Disesaes.

Super Poisions and Diseases are not build with NDD. You would not build Superhuman cold (like a Cold Blast) with NDD (LS: Cold) either, would you? You would of course leave the Defense on ED, that is a No-Brainer (you might still have an auxiliary Damage Power with NDD, but not the main attack).

 

We also have to look carefully if those source material examples were ever anything but Plot devices to take some heroes out of the picture*. It could also be a plot device only used in a Solo Characters story**.

I can think of a few examples from the Animate Universes:

One Justice League episode, where every man - inlcuding Martian Manhunter, Superman & Green Lantern - was getting ill. Each of those three has plausible cause to have LS: All Poisons & Disesaes.

Solution: It is not build with NDD! Problem solved. The entire plot was based in Amazon Magic after all. So it was more a magical effect that looked like a Disease.

Why you would not use it in a Real RPG session: It was a deliberate plot device to make it a "Wonder Woman & Hawkgirl" Story.

 

A later JLU Episode had all Magic Users (inlcuding Fate, Zartanna and Etrigan) disabeled because of trouble in/with hades. So it fell to Wonder Woman to solve it, being the only magic shtick superhero that was not affected. Hawk Girl tagged along because her Thanagarian "Magic Disruption" mace was nessesary and they had to do some tomboy-girl-talk after the whole "Starcrossed" thing.

And nobody else can tag along because it was a quest from the God's and the enterance is on Paradise Island.

Why you would not use it in a Real RPG session: Again, a deliberate plot device to make a "Wonder Woman & Hawkgirl" storyline.

 

One Marvel Example (The Avengers):

The Leader and several other Gamma Mutants errect a growing field that transfurms normal humans into Mutants under control of the leader.

How to build it: Clear Body+Mental Transform, NND (LS. Radiation). Gamma Mutants (like Hulk) were immune, because of LS: Radiation. For Thor it was the same. Iron Man and Black Panther had radiation Shielding as part of thier Costume - until those got to damaged. The rest wore Radation Suits (until those got damaged too). There was also the part where the Second field surpisedeveryone, when thier shielding was not fully engaged (masks were open, clothing thorn, helmets not worn).

Banner later invented the "Slap on Radiation Shielding", wich protected Hawkeye and reversed the Transform on everyone.

Why you would not use it: This story was designed so Hulk could re-join the Avengers. And perhaps to give Thor and Hawkeye some more screentime/Crowming Moment of Awesome. And in the first part Black Panther got one too.

 

*If they were just Plot devices to seperate a hero from his allies, they are propably unsuiteable for a RPG session anyway. There are easier ways to split the party (like asking them not too or just give the seperat goals). And nobody would like it if "half the team" get disabeled by a Plot device such as this. So we do not need to worry how to build something that is obviously not going to be used.

There is a single usecase I can see: While the unaffected play thier adventure to save the team, those affected play a totally seperate adventure (without the other half and chronologically set before or after the "Infection" story). Of course you need the skills to pull this off as GM.

 

**Again, stuff that selective affects only one (like Kryptonian Flu that only works on Superman) is unsiteable for a group adventure. A group campaign cannot have that much focus on a single Character easily. And his weakness is easily compensated for by his teammates. After all, comoensating for personal limitations and problems is what a team is there for.

This is much less useable then the other case. Solo Heroes are build on considerably more points then thier Group Counterparts, so Solo Storylines do not work that well with the Sheet written for a group.

 

Not building a doomsday machine because it is "just a plot device" is one thing.  Using "it's a plot device" to ignore a defensive power a player paid points for and should be reasonably sure will work is quite another.  Especially if poisons in general don't come up that often (so one of the very few times it does their investment doesn't matter) and if no other characters have the same Life Support (so it feels like they are being specifically targeted).  Doesn't seem like the best approach to me.

You put a lot of asumptions in the room, among them a hostile GM.

 

If the LS does not come up often (more then 1-2 times), give the Character the points back already (as defined under the "What not to spend points on" Rule). It's easily accounted for in Hero Designer and even easier with Paper Sheets.

 

This is one of the reasons I support adding 100% to the Damage Reduction model to help represent things like complete immunity to a specific form of damage.  It would of course be a STOP sign power which the GM is advised to consider heavily restricting in his game.

 

Utilizing this model, one could build a character who was completely immune to poison or disease, or build a character that was 25%, 50% or 75% resistant.  And if you build Poison/Disease as Drain vs NND, that doesn't matter.  Still apply the Damage Reduction as normal.

Even with 100% Damage Reduction, Penetrating would still do damage. It skips every non-impenetrable defense. From here the advantage race of Defense and Attack can continue.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I don't know if you know this or not, but the Advanced Player's Guide (pg. 87) has expanded Damage Reduction to 100 percent (along with other options such as an Advantage to ignore Damage Reduction).  The cost is double the 75 percent cost.

I wasn't aware, but it doesnt surprise me. many hero players have been asking for damage reduction to be extended to 100% since the 4th edition days. double the cost of 75% goes right along with the normal cost structure and is priced right for it's utility.

[Christopher]

I noticed that maybe the title is not properly choosen. It isn't a question of NND vs Drain. Because there is nothing to ask between the two.
I'll explain why on this example:

Rattlesnake Venom (existing rules)
RKA 1d6, NND (defense is Life Support [appropriate Immunity]; +1), Does BODY (+1); Damage Over Time (3 increments, one every 5 minutes for 15 minutes, defense only applies once, cannot be used again on same victim until all increments accrue (-0), Extra Time (onset time begins 5 Minutes after victim is bitten; -2), No Range (-1/2), HKA Must Do BODY (-1/2), Linked (-1/4), 4 Charges (-1).
45 Active Points, 8 Real Points
 
Rattlesnake Venom (variant rules)
Drain BODY 2d6, Delayed Return Rate (5 points/Week; +2 1/2), Damage Over Time (3 increments, one every 5 minutes for 15 minutes, cannot be used again on same victim until all increments accrue (-1/2), Extra Time (onset time begins 5 Minutes after victim is bitten; -2), No Range (-1/2), HKA Must Do BODY (-1/2), Linked (-1/4), 4 Charges (-1).
70 Active Points, 12 Real Points

You are actually Comparing KA vs Drain here, not Drain to NND. It might be clearer if I write it down fully (I asume 6E rules are in place, 5E wasn't that well developed in this area, even if I am sure there is a +1 Advantage to switch to any defense you wish):

Rattlesnake Venom (existing rules)
RKA 1d6, AVAD(NND, defense is Life Support [appropriate Immunity]; +1), Does BODY (+1); Damage Over Time (3 increments, one every 5 minutes for 15 minutes, defense only applies once, cannot be used again on same victim until all increments accrue (-0), Extra Time (onset time begins 5 Minutes after victim is bitten; -2), No Range (-1/2), HKA Must Do BODY (-1/2), Linked (-1/4), 4 Charges (-1).
45 Active Points, 8 Real Points

 

Now without NND the whole thing would lokk like this:

Rattlesnake Venom (existing rules)
RKA 1d6, AVAD(Power Defense insead of PD/ED +1), Does BODY (+1); Damage Over Time (3 increments, one every 5 minutes for 15 minutes, defense only applies once, cannot be used again on same victim until all increments accrue (-0), Extra Time (onset time begins 5 Minutes after victim is bitten; -2), No Range (-1/2), HKA Must Do BODY (-1/2), Linked (-1/4), 4 Charges (-1).
45 Active Points, 8 Real Points

 

Now you have an RKA that does Body and is stopped by Power Defense. And the best part is that not a single value has changed - LS is one level lower on defense rarity scale, but NND effectively negates one Level on that Scala. 0+1-1 = 0.