Can't decide on Hero 6e or Gurps 4e

[Spence]

Observe that the STUN Multiplier is ½d6 for 6Ed and 1d6-1 for 5Ed.

 

oops, my gray hair is showing. 

[Sean Waters]

The differentiation between Body and Stun and the different ways that normal and killing attacks interact with defences is one of the things that I really, really like about Hero.  In Hero, depending on your build, a 'normal' attack CAN kill and a 'killing' attack can stun without causing massive 'permanent' damage.

 

It is really important to understand how these interactions occur, and set your character build parameters accordingly.  When I first started it all seemed a bit odd, but now i wonder why anyone does it differently.

 

Normal dice are read for both the 'pip' total which determines Stun damage, and a secondary total: a roll of 1 = 0, 2-5 = 1 and 6 = 2.  This gives you the 'Body' total.  Defences generally subtract from both the Stun and the Body total.  For example if a supervillain throws a 12d6 punch at an opponent, the average of 12d6 will give 42 Stun (3.5 per die on average) and 12 Body (1 per die on average), with a technical range of 12 - 72 Stun and 0 to 24 Body.  I say technical range because the probability curve means that extreme results are very rare with large numbers of dice.

 

If that punch hits a superhero with 20 Physical Defence then that 20 defence comes off both the Stun and body total leaving (42-20) = 22 Stun through defences AND (12-20) = 0 Body through defences.

 

If the target has less than 22 Stun left, then he or she is unconscious.  If the target has less than 22 Constitution then he or she is stunned.  Superheroes would normally start the day with more than 22 Stun and Constitution.

 

In addition the Body total is used to calculate Knockback (in superheroic games - or Knockdown in heroic games), by rolling 2d6 and subtracting the result from the Body total (ignoring most defences): a positive result means that knockback has occurred and the target flies back 2metres for each point of KB.  This can cause additional damage.  There are ways to resist KB.

 

If the same punch hits a street cop with 4 PD and 5 points of Body armour, the cop will take (42-9) = 33 Stun and (12-9) = 3 Body, a pretty serious injury of a normal human being, and the cop will certainly be stunned and almost certainly unconscious.

 

If the same punch hits an untrained passer-by with 2 PD and no armour then that person takes (42-2) = 40 Stun and (12-2) =10 Body, an eventually fatal injury, and certain instant unconsciousness and stunning.

 

You can also use optional bleeding rules which relate the amount of damage you have taken in body to any ongoing damage you might take from bloodloss.

 

Now, think about what we just did there.  One damage roll determines a large range of results, many dependent on who or what has been hit.  Armour makes a real difference, but does not necessarily stop injury.  Characters can be stunned, or unconscious or injured or wounded or knocked back or some combination of the above.

 

You extract a lot of information from a damage roll in Hero, which adds enormously to the richness of the game.  You can tweak how deadly or forgiving your games are by putting limits on damage or defences, you can even work out (for average hits) how many blows it should take to put a PC or NPC down, and tweak that.

 

In addition because most damage rolls are on a bell curve there is a tendency toward the average; although extreme results are possible they are unlikely.  This means that combats can be planned but are never predictable.  The deadliness of an attack is related to the capacity to stun a target but is never completely linked: a 12d6 attack can do 32 Stun and 14 Body, or 48 Stun and 9 Body.  That does not even move into the rules for Killing Attacks: generally lower Stun but higher Body attacks that are only resisted by certain types of defence.

 

Get a good handle on how damage works, and why, and you have an incredibly powerful tool for building a relatively realistic (for a given value of 'realistic') game that does not require a whole load of subsidiary rolls and look up tables.

 

I have not played GURPS for many years, but it could not then match Hero for sheer information extraction from die rolls.  I like that.  Moreover, if this SOUNDS complicated, it really isn't, you get a lot of result for relatively little time investment.  It's good.

[Spence]

Observe that the STUN Multiplier is ½d6 for 6Ed and 1d6-1 for 5Ed.

 

 

oops, my gray hair is showing. 

 

I was slapping myself on the back for remembering it was "1d6-1 min of 1" since I still play "1d6-1 with 0 possible".  I totally spaced we were talking CC.

[smount83]

Thanks for the info. Now I understand how the damage works, now all I have to figure out is how to build skills with each.

[Spence]

now all I have to figure out is how to build skills with each.

 

With each?

[bigbywolfe]

You don't "build skills" with types of damage.  Perhaps if you told us what you are actually wanting to build we can better explain.

[Scott Baker]

I'm not sure what you mean by building skills. Hero already has a list of skills, many of which cover lots of areas (such as languages and science). If there is something specific that you think is missing, there are the Knowledge skills to cover most of those areas (knowledge of people, places, things).

 

Also, don't go overboard making people buy skills for every possible thing they could know. If someone wants their character to know "Yodels of the Swiss Alps" as part of their background, and that knowledge won't give them any significant advantage, then they really don't need to pay for it.

[L. Marcus]

Right -- Rule Of Thumb: If it won't be needed in-game, don't pay points for it. And conversely, if a player paid points for an ability, assume he wants it to come into play!

[smount83]

My plan isn't so much about making players buy skills so much, as it is making equipment that will be needed and squired throughout the game. What I mean about building skills is that if I need a certain skill for something in the game, and I can't find a fitting one in the book, how to I develop the skill from there? Do I have to shoehorn another similar ability into what I need it for, or can I develop one based off of a set of options. Also, which system will offer me the most flexability.

[L. Marcus]

The Power Skill seems to be what you're looking for. But I doubt you'd find yourself in that situation -- Hero has a substantial list of skills, and then there's the Science, Knowledge, and Professional Skills, that can be pretty much anything you want.

 

Can you give an example on the skill you'd like to add?

[Chris Goodwin]

Thanks for the info. Now I understand how the damage works, now all I have to figure out is how to build skills with each.

With each?

 

I think he meant "build skills with each system (GURPS and Hero)."

 

If you want to create new Skills in Hero, it couldn't be easier. As has been mentioned, the Background Skills -- Knowledge Skill (KS), Professional Skill (PS), and Science Skill (SS) -- can do a lot. Each is essentially a freeform skill that you choose the subject of. You could take, for instance, KS: Board Games; PS: Plumber; SS: Molecular Biology. You can also use the Power Skill, though that is most often used in conjunction with a power of some kind (which could easily be a device). And you can also create new Skills for a campaign; this is most often done when a combination of PS and KS doesn't quite do what the GM wants; in this case it would most likely be either an Agility Skill (DEX-based), an Intellect Skill (INT-based), or an Interaction Skill (PRE-based) though you could easily base Skills on STR, CON, or EGO.  In any case, it would most likely have a base cost of 3 points for a base roll of 9 + (characteristic / 5) or less.

 

As I mentioned over on the SJ Games GURPS forum, while GURPS may appear to have a larger quantity of skills than the HERO System, either many GURPS Skills would be Background Skills in Hero (Law skill in GURPS would likely be PS: Law or KS: Law, or both, in Hero), or a single Hero Skill would cover multiple GURPS Skills (such as Concealment in Hero for GURPS' Camouflage and Holdout, Paramedic in Hero for GURPS Diagnosis and First Aid, just to throw out two examples).  And GURPS breaks weapon, vehicle, and Martial Arts types into separate Skills, while Hero groups them together (Weapon Familiarity, Transport Familiarity, and Martial Arts, respectively).  

[smount83]

Ok, that definately helps me get an idea of what I'm working with. Thanks

[Theros]

When I started to GM Hero, damage was the hardest thing to get...now it is easy.

 

With Hero System Power creation rules you can pretty much create anything you want. Power creation system can be used to create teleporting devices, fireball spells, firearms, flak jackets and so on. If you look for ready made powers, there is a book that offers a lot of powers ready made (2000 or so? ) and if you want ready made spells... Just pick up grimoire and you have a lot of spells to horror, scifi and fantasy settings. All those are made using hero system rules.

 

If character wants to upgrade his power...that is relatively easily done with the rules.