Vondy Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 Quote: Vondy I love 4th edition, but there were parts that were badly explained and needed clarification. Really? I never had such a problem. Yes, there were ambiguities and lack of clarification, but they were also very easily solved. At least it was easy for me. I didn't say the ambiguities and lack of clarifications weren't easy to solve. I said the rules were badly explained and needed clarification. Which you conceded. EOD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 The rule for converting characters is that the character has to be able to do everything he could do before. If you need more points you get them for free. That's explicitly stated in 6E1, I don't know if it is elsewhere though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arakish Posted March 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 The rule for converting characters is that the character has to be able to do everything he could do before. If you need more points you get them for free. That's explicitly stated in 6E1, I don't know if it is elsewhere though. Really? I must have missed the part of "If you need more points you get them for free" part of the text. Of course, I am using Champions Complete and did not buy 6e. Hmmm... Since I am also packing for a move from New Mexico to North Carolina (got job with NCDOT as a GISS), all my books are now packed and I'd rather not have to dig them out right now. Anyone else know of this "need more points and get them free" thing? rmfr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 Looking at the character, I will speculate he was a high DEX, high CON, probably moderate STR build pre-6e. Those characters will be more expensive. Why? Because, simply put, figured characteristics were much too good a deal. 6e has solved this in a few ways. First, the cost of certain Figured's (REC, END, STUN) have fallen. It was much more efficient, in prior editions, to buy up the primary stat than to buy extra Figured's. For example, you want more REC and END. In 4e, +2 REC costs 4 points and +20 END costs 10, so 14 points. Buy +10 CON and you get +2 REC and +20 END. You spent 6 more points. You probably bought some form of extra ED, so that's 2 back - 4 more points needed. Well, sell your extra 5 STUN back and you're up 1 point. Plus you get the other benefits of +10 CON - including being much harder to STUN. But the big offender was DEX. +15 for 45 points. OK, that's +5 OCV, +5 DCV,+5 with all DEX skills and rolls and +15 Lightning Reflexes. All that for 30 points (the other 15 rebates back since everyone buys up their SPD). +5 OCV with a single attack cost 10 points. +5 DCV from skill levels cost 25. I'm already 5 points overbudget, only improved 1 attack's OCV, don't get my DCV unless I've assigned my skill levels, and get no improvement to initiative or DEX skills. Fair? NO - DEX was the true bargain purchase. Could it have been done differently? Sure - we could have kept all the Figured's and repriced the stats that feed into them Why was that not pursued? Largely because, once decoupled, there was no reason to. The pricing was fixed. Funny...Mutants and Masterminds similarly decoupled Attack and Defense from STR and DEX. Seems it's not an idea unique to one designer. COM gets a lot of heat. Pre- and post-6e Board Wars were common. Ultimately, though, I was converted by one simple argument - what does COM do that merits a standalone characteristic? Every actual and suggested use of COM modified a use of PRE. A separate characteristic that only modifies use of other characteristics doesn't cut it. I note we had COM in D&D for a while, and it went away, likely for the same reasons. Is it perfect? No. I think DEX, PRE and INT should be the same price. Over time, I've come to believe that price should be 2 points for each, although I started with the traditional view that INT and PRE are, and have always been, 1 point so keep it that way. But +1 with all INT, DEX or PRE rolls costing 5 points seems much consistent than having it cost less (probably much less), so call that half the value of the stat. +1 to all PER rolls, +1d6 PRE attack or +5 Initiative all seem reasonable at 5 points, so there's the other half of the stat. Fold PRE defense into EGO and we get a +1 limitation for "only PRE defense" or "only EGO rolls and mental power resistance". OK, I can work with that. But overall, I think 6e took a lot of steps to better realize the Hero mantra that "you get what you pay for" and "mechanics are separate from special effects". I played 4e (and 5e)for a long time, but I find 6e, overall, improves the theory behind the game. YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 Really? I must have missed the part of "If you need more points you get them for free" part of the text. Of course, I am using Champions Complete and did not buy 6e. Hmmm... Since I am also packing for a move from New Mexico to North Carolina (got job with NCDOT as a GISS), all my books are now packed and I'd rather not have to dig them out right now. Anyone else know of this "need more points and get them free" thing? 6E1 p. 21. It's also in the HERO System Sixth Edition Character Conversion Summary. That's been the explicitly stated rule in 4th and 5th editions as well. I don't have page references because I'm at work and my books aren't, but I can pull up page references later on if anyone is interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 1) No. I never knew there was such a thing as Champions New Millennia. Cherish your innocence. Wish I didn't know about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueCloud2k2 Posted March 18, 2014 Report Share Posted March 18, 2014 The story was great but the rules were horrible... it was HERO 4e melded with GURPS. And made both systems look like crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted March 18, 2014 Report Share Posted March 18, 2014 The story was great but the rules were horrible... it was HERO 4e melded with GURPS. And made both systems look like crap. Not GURPS, Interlock System. After 15 years, I've softened my view a bit. I still think it was crap, but the biggest problem was it wasn't complete at the time, and we had been given hope of a new version that Steve Long had put together. (Which was pretty much what 5th edtion turned out to be after corporate hijinks) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted March 18, 2014 Report Share Posted March 18, 2014 Mein Eyes! Ze goggles dey do nothink! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted March 18, 2014 Report Share Posted March 18, 2014 Performing an image search for "Power Girl" is really interesting (and NSFW). Performing an image search for "Hitler" is kind of not (and still NSFW). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted March 18, 2014 Report Share Posted March 18, 2014 Performing an image search for "Power Girl" is really interesting (and NSFW). Performing an image search for "Hitler" is kind of not (and still NSFW). And for heaven's sake don't image search "Power Girl and Hitler." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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