Drain PD question..

[CraterMaker]

Hi everybody..

 

I'm working on a character who can strengthen or

diminish the weak force in things.. at maximum power in

weaken mode it can completely disintegrate it's target.

 

But one of the powers I wanted was to make things

fragile.. My first choice was a pd drain, and then my mind

went "WONK"!

 

So here's where I'm stuck, rules wise: If I buy a PD drain,

I'm sure it will affect normal non-resistant PD.. but will it

also affect armor (the power), forcefield, and damage

resistance since all three have PD elements?

 

If not, should I buy seperate powers to affect these

similar defenses?

 

Thanks for your input and time -

 

-CraterMaker

[phydaux]

This is all off the top of my head.

 

Armor and Force Field are POWERS. PD is a characteristic. If you have Drain PD, then it will suck down the opponent's PD, but not touch his Force Field or Armor.

 

And THINGS don't have PD, they have DEF. Totally differant.

 

If the target has Hardened PD, then I don't think you can drain it at all. For that you might need Armor Piercing Drain (but check FREd yourself on that, I might be way off).

[JeffreyWKramer]

You can drain Hardened PD, but you end up draining fewer points of PD, as your drain has to account for the cost of the Hardened Advantage.

 

A Drain vs. PD will not affect Force Field or Armor.

 

If you want such an effect to be maximally powerful, you might want to purchase it with one of the "Variable Effect" Advantages on Adjustment Powers - "Drain any one Power or Characteristic providing defense against physical attacks", or "drain any 2" such Powers/Characteristics, etc. Another option would be to purchase a Multipower of different Drains (PD, Force Field rPD, Armor rPD, etc.).

 

Keep in mind also that any Adjustment Power, including Drain, that targets a Defense Power/Characteristic gives you only half the normal number of dice. Thus, 20 pts gives you only 1d6 of Drain vs. PD, rather than 2d6.

[BNakagawa]

I'd use the +1/4 advantage for variable effect (5e 75)

 

Just pick whichever power/stat matches your target best.

[CraterMaker]

Thanks for the input, everybody ..

 

I think I'll toy with several drains in an MP, as that is what

his other powers are in - Whats a few extra slots? Anybody

know what a point of DEF in an object runs AP wise?

 

Thanks for getting me past my brain freeze!

 

- Cratermaker

[Blue Jogger]

Well, a rough way to figure out DEF is to compare it to a normal man wanting to damage said object.

 

Fragile things have no defense or 1. A simple fall will damage them.

 

Most normal everyday objects are going to have roughly 3 DEF. An impressive (but not super) punch will start to damage with one solid hit. A normal punch won't damage it (barring an impressive roll)

 

Objects that a normal person can beat on all day and probably not hurt it are going to have roughly 5. This doesn't count using tools and/or fancy martial arts or being a body builder. This doesn't count haymakers. Note that normal cars don't even have 5. Police cars in the Champions universe probably do, however.

 

Combat items are in the book. Reinforced armor doors, lightposts, etc.

[CraterMaker]

Well, I think I've changed my mind about using a whole bunch of drains in a multipower, each vrs a seperate type of defense. It'll be a bit easier to read as one drain with the quarter advantage..

 

but, say I have a 5d6 drain vrs any one power or stat that protects from physical damage, and use it on a pistol (so I can crush it to dust for a Presence attack)..

 

I roll 20 on my dice, which is halved to ten because it affects a defensive power.. so, how much DEF have I drained?

 

Erm, one other thing.. am I correct in assuming I cant drain, for example, a force field of just pd, and must apply it equally to both pd and ed? Or can I just have it applied to the pd part? I've got a quasiscience explanation for it, but .. it kinda sets off my cheesy alarm. Either way, It'll be usefull knowledge to add to my Hero knowledge.

 

-CraterMaker

[phydaux]

PD forcefield and ED Force Field are differant powers, so each must be drained separatly.

[JeffreyWKramer]

You do not have to target both rPD and rED of a Force Field or Armor if you want to affect only one of them. However, if the Force Field or Armor was bought with any Advantages (or if normal PD was bought with Damage Resistance), you have to account for the costs of said Advantages (or DR) when you drain the PD.

[Vigil]

more possibilities

 

Hey Cratermaker,

 

Your proposed power leech chacater sounds interesting.

 

I think the easiest way to deal with the DEF of objects is the most obvious also...but an HKA whose special effect is DRAIN ONLY USABLE VS INANIMATE OBJECTS (-1/2 in my estimation), CAN'T ADD STR (-1/2 also I think). I think that's the most streamlined way to represent the ability to crush guns etc. to dust and it doesn't work on living things so no chance of any misuse there.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Vigil

[Tech]

Originally posted by phydaux

PD forcefield and ED Force Field are differant powers, so each must be drained separatly.

 

Ah yes, another of the 'updates' which I think is totally tweaked out to the moon - in a bad way.

 

I would go with the power affecting 2 or more things at the same time.

[levi]

Originally posted by JeffreyWKramer

...Keep in mind also that any Adjustment Power, including Drain, that targets a Defense Power/Characteristic gives you only half the normal number of dice. Thus, 20 pts gives you only 1d6 of Drain vs. PD, rather than 2d6...

 

Technically you halve the result not double the per die cost. This distinction is important as it relates to Power Defense or an AP Drain...

 

6D6 DRAIN avg result 18 - 6 Pow Def = 12/2 = 6 pts effect

3D6 DRAIN avg result 9 - 6 Pow Def = 3 pt effect

 

6D6 AP DRAIN avg res 18 - (6/2) Pow Def = 15/2 = 8 pts effect

3D6 AP DRAIN avg res 9 - (6/2) Pow Def = 6/2 = 3 pts effect

[zornwil]

I only browsed this briefly, so if I missed the point I apologize in advance, but you might want to just do a Drain vs "all powers of an SFX", +2 (I think) advantage. Expensive, and one problem is that the SFX you stated are pretty broad, i think.

 

Maybe a better way is a naked advantage Piercing, if the character can apply this weakening to anything.

 

Just some additional thoughts.

[CraterMaker]

Well, with the drain being able to target just the pd parts

of defensive powers, it does make it so that if I did buy it with the +2 advantage (all powers of sfx) it would still be effective without being a 100 point plus power.

 

Plus, it would toss all that "What defenses does he have?" back into the GM's lap, where I think it belongs. No need for me to know that a particular object has X power or powers.

 

You're right, Zornwill, that the power seems to have a pretty broad SFX problem.. Just to reiterate, the character can affect the Weak Force in objects, effectively making objects fragile or much tougher than normal.

 

I think that I'll recognize this powers extra "broadness" by saying that the drain doesn't work on Force FieldsThat's a pretty common schtick for a pretty common defense, and it'll be a -0 limitation. So if X agent has a bullet proof vest and a FF generating belt, it won't affect the FF. I'm toying with the idea of some sort of endurance drain linked to the power that's triggered only when it's used against someone with a FF, sort of an interference effect, maby even affecting my character, too.. OOoo I'm kinda liking that the more I think of it!

 

I"m curious about using Piercing as a naked advantage - could you run down how it would work with an example?

 

Thanks, Vigil - He IS going to have an HKA eventually, either bought with NND does body or AVLD does body. This will be his power to straight out disintegrate things. I'm going to hold off and buy it eventually with experience, I think that'll be cool for him to find out he can do that at some future part of his career, and give him a big attack when facing the super supervillians.

I'll let him add his str damage in, tho. With those advantages on the hka, he'll get nada from pushing his power normally ... the added str damage will represent him pushing his power to the max. Anybody have any idea what the limitation "Str used to add to HKA costs X2 endurance"?

 

-CraterMaker

[levi]

CM, It would be much cheaper to have this character effect only non-living matter...in other words he can't weaken animal or vegetable only mineral.

[BNakagawa]

Or rather, not currently living materials.

 

Otherwise, he wouldn't be able to affect leather armor, which isn't currently alive, but certainly isn't mineral...

[Kristopher]

I think the term you want is "inanimate." That leaves people, aliens, animals, plants, and the undead unaffected, while still affecting metal, plastic, composite, fiber, leather, and other material in armors.

[CraterMaker]

True, Levi ..

 

It would make comic book sense too, to ssay that a creatures bioelectric field interferes with his mutant ability to affect the weak force's ability to hold atoms together.

 

If a gm wanted me to limit it like that, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I'll make two or three versions of him (or rather, his powers) so the GM can pick or choose. (Kinda a moot point right now since there is no group to join around here. Making characters is fun for me, and good practice to boot.)

By the By , what would you assign the limitation "Not vrs living things"?

 

Right now, this is what I've got for first draft - I shyed away from the +2 advantage, all powers of physical defence sfx, since it doesn't really seem to be a tight enough SFX to be warranted.

 

51 Multipower - Weak Force Control

8m Suppress, 10d6, Armor Rpd, no range (-1/2)

8m Suppress, 10d6, PD, no range (-1/2)

8m Suppress, 10d6, Damage Resisance RPD, no range (-1/2)

5m Suppress, 10d6, Force Wall RPD, physical force walls only (-1/2), no range (-1/2)

5m Suppress, 10d6, Missile Deflection, physical SFX only (-1/2), no range (-1/2)

5m Suppress, 10d6, DEF of objects, only vrs physical attacks (-1/2), no range (-1/2)

5m Suppress, 10d6, Damage Reduction Physical, only physical sfx (-1/2), no range (-1/2)

10m Force Field, 10pd, 10ed, 5 Lack of Weakness, Hardened (+1/4), 1/2 endurance (+1/4), Usable by Others (+1/2)

6m Hand Attack, 6d6, Penetrating (+1/2)

 

Later on I'll buy him an HKA (disintigration attack), Clinging RSR Climbing roll (Poking fingers into walls to climb em'), Missile Deflection bullets and shrapnel (turning bullets into the consistancy of chalk), and 1" tunnelling (disintegration attack)

 

Comments and suggestions are MOST welcome..

 

-CraterMaker

[zornwil]

Originally posted by CraterMaker

I"m curious about using Piercing as a naked advantage - could you run down how it would work with an example?

 

Yuck, sorry, I meant Penetrating instead of Piercing, which no longer really exists.

 

Re Penetrating, which I meant, yeah, it was a stray thought, it's good if you want to get "some" damage through but don't really want to blast the defenses per se.

 

So basically...

 

let's say you have:

 

(all "vanilla" versions, no other lims, advs)

13d6 Energy Blast - 65 points

80 STR - 70 points

3d6 Killing Attack - 60 points

 

The 80 STR is the largest attack you'd probably want to work with, so you'd buy the advantage of course geared to that. The +1/2 costs 40 points, so you pay 40 for the naked advantage, and whenever you use ANY of these attacks, you get the penetrating value for them.

 

I don't think it fits what you wanted, though, it's really sort of an alternate but related power suggestion.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by CraterMaker

True, Levi ..

 

It would make comic book sense too, to ssay that a creatures bioelectric field interferes with his mutant ability to affect the weak force's ability to hold atoms together.

 

If a gm wanted me to limit it like that, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I'll make two or three versions of him (or rather, his powers) so the GM can pick or choose. (Kinda a moot point right now since there is no group to join around here. Making characters is fun for me, and good practice to boot.)

By the By , what would you assign the limitation "Not vrs living things"?

 

Right now, this is what I've got for first draft - I shyed away from the +2 advantage, all powers of physical defence sfx, since it doesn't really seem to be a tight enough SFX to be warranted.

 

51 Multipower - Weak Force Control

8m Suppress, 10d6, Armor Rpd, no range (-1/2)

8m Suppress, 10d6, PD, no range (-1/2)

8m Suppress, 10d6, Damage Resisance RPD, no range (-1/2)

5m Suppress, 10d6, Force Wall RPD, physical force walls only (-1/2), no range (-1/2)

5m Suppress, 10d6, Missile Deflection, physical SFX only (-1/2), no range (-1/2)

5m Suppress, 10d6, DEF of objects, only vrs physical attacks (-1/2), no range (-1/2)

5m Suppress, 10d6, Damage Reduction Physical, only physical sfx (-1/2), no range (-1/2)

10m Force Field, 10pd, 10ed, 5 Lack of Weakness, Hardened (+1/4), 1/2 endurance (+1/4), Usable by Others (+1/2)

6m Hand Attack, 6d6, Penetrating (+1/2)

 

Later on I'll buy him an HKA (disintigration attack), Clinging RSR Climbing roll (Poking fingers into walls to climb em'), Missile Deflection bullets and shrapnel (turning bullets into the consistancy of chalk), and 1" tunnelling (disintegration attack)

 

Comments and suggestions are MOST welcome..

 

-CraterMaker

 

Being a multipower, you're only going to get so many at once to work, if you're okay with that, cool. I like it. You might want to do it still with a VPP so that if you run up against anohter construction you hadn't thought of but fits you could use it, but that might be better done with more XPs earned then spent anyway.

[CraterMaker]

Hope nobody minds that I dragged this up again, but I think

I've found the most elegant solution to my drain pd question. I've been writing and rewriting the character, tentatively named Breakpoint, and just not being happy with all the figuring and fudging and stuff involved with using drains.

 

So I sat down with a six-pack and dug down into Hero Systems mightiest strength, the "What do you want the power to do" question..

 

"I want Breakpoint to do more damage to a target than his 20 strength would normally be able to."

 

And then I hit on the solution! Rather than buying a drain vrs defenses, the same effect, the EXACT same effect can be simulated by him just doing more damage! I was just caught up in the Cool Power Making part of HeroSystems, thinking "having a character with Drain would be nifty!"..

 

So, he has this -

 

15 Elemental control , Affect Weak Force (Make things tougher/weaker) 10 4d6 hand to hand attack, AP (+1/2), (NR -1/2)

15 10 pd 10ed FF, usable by others, one other simultaneously (+1/2)

?? Find Weakness, all Hand to Hand attacks, 13-, costs Endurance (-1/2) (Don't have my book on me, so can't figure point cost)

 

And that's it - All he really needs to define his special effect. The flip side of an object taking more damage is doing more damage to the target. And later, if I want to increase his powers to the point of OTHER characters taking advantage of the targets weakened state, I can buy the FW as Usable By Others or something else, maby a drain..As it is, he weakens the target for only an instant, and at no range - just long enough for him to wallop someone(thing).

 

So whatcha think?

 

-CraterMaker

[levi]

I have always been a huge fan of special effects over rules-mongering. I like it!