Do you have a problem with telepathic pcs?

[Hermit]

Do you have a problem with telepathic pcs?

No.

[assault]

Originally posted by Galadorn

The question is, does the GM want to hype up his storyline to telepathy proof it? Of course if you telepathy proof every storyline, players won't use telepathy anymore.

 

This is the fundamental problem. Of course it's possible to make storylines proof against mystery wrecking powers, but most storylines probably shouldn't be.

 

Frankly, the whole thing is a pain in the neck. That's the real reason why Teeps, Invisible guys and people with N-Ray aren't my favourite people. They make sceario design harder work than it needs to be.

 

Alan

[astralfrontier]

The rule in Hero seems to be "the mentalist always wins". I've assumed this to be true in every Hero game I've played in, and so far I've seen it borne out. The only "real" way to allow a mentalist PC into a game seems to be to saddle him with limitations of some kind.

 

I personally am a big fan of the Lensman approach to telepathy - mechanical mind-shields work, and work reliably and cheaply enough that people who need 'em can afford 'em. Mind shields are obvious to any telepath, so wearing one means you suspect telepathic intrusion - whether this means you're just paranoid or have something to hide is an open question.

 

Similarly, assume people will assume telepathy works! The murder mystery can still be done. The butler did it... but he used some of the master's supply of cash to buy drugs that erased his short-term memory of committing the crime, and no amount of telepathy will retrieve those memories. Perhaps it will in a few months or years, but by then the case is closed and the guy gets away. People who think about it at all wipe their prints off the gun; similarly, they will take precautions against having their mind read, if they are capable of doing so.

[lemming]

Originally posted by memesis

The rule in Hero seems to be "the mentalist always wins". I've assumed this to be true in every Hero game I've played in, and so far I've seen it borne out. The only "real" way to allow a mentalist PC into a game seems to be to saddle him with limitations of some kind.

Actually in the campaign that zornwil runs, I play a mentalist. Then again for me to just strip info from someone, takes Spectrum a bit of work. I also don't play her in a fashion that would make it just a trivial thing to look into someones skull. You don't know where that brain has been!

[astralfrontier]

Originally posted by lemming

Actually in the campaign that zornwil runs, I play a mentalist. Then again for me to just strip info from someone, takes Spectrum a bit of work. I also don't play her in a fashion that would make it just a trivial thing to look into someones skull. You don't know where that brain has been!

 

What limitations did you take on the power(s)?

[levi]

I seem to find two schools of thought (no pun intended) on Telepathy.

 

The first is that the Telepath chooses a target, rolls some dice and the GM spills some info.

 

The second is that the Telepath chooses a target, tells the GM what he/she is trying to find out, rolls some dice and the GM relays the appropriate info.

 

I personally have found the second method to be the most balanced. It regards Telepathy like an internet search engine. Plug in some keywords (ex: Where is the VIPER Nest?) decide how specific the search is (GM decides EGO +10) check for results (die roll). The blanket statement by Telepaths in my game group of "What does this guy know?" Would not fly.

 

I find that characters with the power to pick up random surface thoughts or emotions is better served by Detect (possibly with No Concious Control) than Telepathy. My group uses Telepathy like mental interrogation, in fact Interrogation is a complementary skill to Telepathy in our campaigns (+5 to Telepathy result for each point Interrogation Roll is made by).

 

Hope this helps

[zornwil]

I don't have a problem with telepaths, though I haven't had anybody blatantly try to abuse it ("always on area effect' for example). Normal people are easy targets, but I don't put normal people in really important or easily-targetted positions, most of the time. The above-normal may or may not be easy targets, but that's fine, from character to character it can work. Your big-time villains are going to prepare against telepathy. And I find often telepathy is a nice short-cut in moving the plot along!

 

Re lemming's limitations, I'll let him answer, but the short answer is he didn't put any "real" ones on in terms of BEHAVIOR other than his own roleplaying. His character suffers the emotional results as anyone would (you'd think, anyway) of delving into minds, so she is careful in doing so.

[Rechan]

Just realize that mental powers should all have the /!\ beside them. When used recklessly, they are Very Bad. When used creatively and reasonably, they can be Very Good.

 

FOr instance, I recall a character who had telapthy. However, that telepathy had a very Bad Effect; whenever turned on, there was a linked power which basicly read the surface thoughts of anyone in the area, then made a Mental illusion of those thoughts coming true. The character could not control which images did what; it was all reflexive.

 

I have a PC in our group who is a mentalist, however her Telepathy and Mental Images have the limitation Does Not Work on anyone she does not have the full name of. So if it's some costumed villain, all she can do is ego attack him.

 

Then there are concepts like, say some of the characters in Psi. Only a few have the stock 'mindscan/telepathy/bluh'. You have ego ettacks, Ego entangles, astral projection, mental images/physical attacks, etc. I like Empanths myself. So it's all in how you play the game.

[assault]

Originally posted by zornwil

Normal people are easy targets, but I don't put normal people in really important or easily-targetted positions, most of the time. The above-normal may or may not be easy targets, but that's fine, from character to character it can work. Your big-time villains are going to prepare against telepathy.

 

This is a problem for me, since supervillains are extremely rare in my games, and most of those that do exist don't have any serious defences against mental powers.

 

Of course, I do use lots of robots, zombies and so on, who are totally immune to mental powers, but, of course, they are cannon fodder.

 

I prefer to use normals rather than supers for one very simple reason: using supers encourages sloppy scenario writing. Using normals requires mystery scenarios, which are more fun, but tend to get destroyed by telepathy, N-Ray vision, Invisibility and so on.

 

Alan

[austenandrews]

I had a devil of a time with a telepathic PC last year. Serious pain, through no fault of the player; I just wasn't adequately prepared as a GM for the power. I won't disallow it in the future, but I will certainly obstruct its usefulness with lots of "color."

 

-AA

[Guest Celebrin]

Do you have a problem with telepathic PCs?

 

Generally no - though I tend to be pretty discriminating in who I allow to have such powers (telepathy, mind control, precognition, etc).

 

I, however, prefer to give such abilities to brand new players who have never RP'd before, or who have very limited experience, as I find them the most interesting kinds of people to play with such abilities.

 

I tend to find that many experienced players are more likely to take advantage of these kinds of powers, while new players that I've gamed with have been more interested in whether they should do these kinds of things and spend more time exploring their powers rather than necessarily trying to use them to their utmost potential.

 

I also tend to leave precognition to NPCs for obvious reasons. The Oracle in my current game has precognition with the Always On limitation as well as the Drvien Mad by Visions disadvantage as the constant torrent of images and visions from people and places she's never seen and can't always understand have begun to drive her nuts (it'll be up to the PCs to determine whether or not her sanity can be saved).

 

As has been said, though, these things just need time and energy devoted to them before each session to determine what needs to be done, what people know, etc. As my last long-term game dealt with villains who were naturally telepathic, some tactical situations were dealt with because of this fact - knowing that your enemy can read minds leads generals and such to send people into situations where they may be captured because they have false information you want the enemy to have. It also means that the people up the chain of command are going to be considering carefully what each of their operatives knows. For instance, if the informer only knows his contact is called Steel, that may not mean anything to the players or their characters until they do some old-fashioned detective work and track down who this person is. Telepathy doesn't generally leave everything open to the PCs at the slightest whim, it just gives them a bit of an edge.

 

Also, taking into account what level of control/telepathy/etc a character is likely to roll goes a long way into determining what level of power to allow a character. Only one of my current PCs has Telepathy (he doesn't know it yet), but I kept the level low enough that at most he's generally only going to get surface thoughts, while another player has a limited form of telepathy allowing him to only sense emotions - and again, with a low enough level that even if he rolls well, isn't likely to get more than one level above surface thoughts.

 

Generally, though, I think powers such as this just require a little more attention and thought on a GMs part - though this also is reflected in the detail and complexity of the game you run as well, which only makes it that much more believable and enjoyable for the players.

 

Darren

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by austenandrews

I had a devil of a time with a telepathic PC last year. Serious pain, through no fault of the player; I just wasn't adequately prepared as a GM for the power.

 

I think this about summarizes alot of GM's experiences. I have roleplayed for 24 years now, and played Hero Games for 23 years. I have a friend who has played as long as I have. When he gets his hands on a Telepath in my games, he definately keeps me on my toes.

 

That's the thing I think, with a straight power with little or no limitations, there are so many creative ways to use it. With Telepathy for instance, we all know you can read peoples' minds, but what about when two telepaths are reading the mind of the same person? Can they fool one another by placing false thoughts and memories in their common targets mind for each other? This is one problem that comes up with telepathy.

[Kristopher]

(From reading this board, I know many of you have a preset image of Vampire and those who play it, but set that aside for a moment. I'm not one of those guys, and neither were my players.)

 

There are several fairly-widespread "mystery-busting" powers in Vampire. Telepathy, psychometry, enhanced senses, mind control of several sorts, magic, etc. Running Vampire left me with an appreciation of how hard it is to balance a good story and game with not frustrating the players every time they try to use one of those powers.

[Kevin]

After reading the posts on this board, I have two thoughts on the perils of telepaths in a Champions game.

 

It seems to boil down to A)Skill and B)Trust.

 

Skilled gamemasters and players do just fine with telepaths.

 

Gamemasters and players who trust each other do fine with telepaths.

 

Unskilled or inexperienced gamemasters combined with either an unskilled player or a skilled player deliberately busting the game don't fare well.

 

Personally, I only find role playing satisfying if the shared game is enjoyable to everyone; all players and the gamemaster. There are some character concepts, which, if played one way, enhance the game. If played another, they ruin it. Telepaths are just one of those concepts.

 

If your gamemaster is willing to allow a psionic into play, folks, don't make him regret it!

[tesuji]

Originally posted by Galadorn

The question is, does the GM want to hype up his storyline to telepathy proof it? Of course if you telepathy proof every storyline, players won't use telepathy anymore.

 

Actually, IMO, don't take offense, but that question to me **is** the problem.

 

Treating the storyline as a meaningful aspect on its own removed from the PCs is the problem. Just like the Gm might have a great storyline for a woodsy trek, that storyline might be a joke when he has several flying characters.

 

The storyline only has merit when taken in the context of the characters that will be running thru it.

 

So, yes, you will run headlong into problems as soon as it becomes "how much do i need to distort my storyline for these guys?" instead of "now, what type of storyline would be good for these characters."

 

Its not about "proofing" the storyline vs telepathy, its about devising a storyline that highlights his telepathy and makes it every bit (and not more) important to the resolution as the other character's powers.

 

All this, IMO.

 

I view the character's abilities as an opportunity for me to show off my storytelling ability, not as a problem to work around.

[lemming]

Originally posted by zornwil

Re lemming's limitations, I'll let him answer, but the short answer is he didn't put any "real" ones on in terms of BEHAVIOR other than his own roleplaying. His character suffers the emotional results as anyone would (you'd think, anyway) of delving into minds, so she is careful in doing so.

What he said.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by lemming

What he said.

 

Cop-out!

 

[Victim]

Originally posted by assault

This is a problem for me, since supervillains are extremely rare in my games, and most of those that do exist don't have any serious defences against mental powers.

 

Of course, I do use lots of robots, zombies and so on, who are totally immune to mental powers, but, of course, they are cannon fodder.

 

I prefer to use normals rather than supers for one very simple reason: using supers encourages sloppy scenario writing. Using normals requires mystery scenarios, which are more fun, but tend to get destroyed by telepathy, N-Ray vision, Invisibility and so on.

 

Alan

 

So, in other words, characters with super powered investigation abilities can easily solve mundane mysteries. Wow, who'd of thought that superpowers would actually be super?

 

DnD has tons mystery busting powers too. You can start with Detect Evil or Charm Person, and the potential keeps going up.

[assault]

Originally posted by Victim

So, in other words, characters with super powered investigation abilities can easily solve mundane mysteries. Wow, who'd of thought that superpowers would actually be super?

 

DnD has tons mystery busting powers too. You can start with Detect Evil or Charm Person, and the potential keeps going up.

 

Yes, and how many decent mystery scenarios have you seen in DnD?

 

Detective fiction is one of the major roots of the superhero genre. Unfortunately, certain powers can make it can be difficult to explore this.

 

It would be fabulous to be able to deal with a superheroic version of "The Maltese Falcon", wouldn't it? It would certainly beat "yet another slugfest against supervillain team #483".

 

Of course, I suppose that you could say that the Dark Champions genre deals with this kind of stuff. That would be true, except, of course, that the Dark Champions genre tends to encourage machinegun wielding munchkinism. The Pulp genre comes a bit closer, but it has the disadvantage of being a period piece, which isn't all that easy to run.

 

Mystery goes well with the action component of superheroics. It's the kind of thing that makes Batman, or for that matter, Daredevil, interesting. It's not at all surprising, by the way, that these two characters have featured in some of the best superheroic writing. Of course, Daredevil is a character with enhanced senses out the hither and yon! Being able to tell if someone is lying is really useful! But it's not the same as being able to reach into someone's head and rip out the truth...

 

And incidentally, the original, 1930's version of Superman would be a perfectly fine character in a mystery scenario, too...

 

I do, however, take the point that scenarios should be designed with the specific characters that will be playing them in mind, wherever possible. That doesn't help Hero Games, but it does help us "folks at home". We can, and should, tailor things to suit our own players and their characters. None the less, tweaking the PCs can make life a bit easier.

 

Anyway, as I mentioned, I use few superbeings in my game. As such, I like to get a lot of mileage out of my normals. It's easy for them to be physically overwhelmed, but beating them mentally is a whole other story. That's where the skill lies.

 

Alan

[Kevin]

I don't get the story problems people are expressing with psionic characters.

 

Rule abuses and player problems I get.

 

Story problems I don't.

 

The game mechanics prevent telepathy from being too powerful. Any half decent storyteller can run a mystery with a telepathic character. In fact, a telepath can make a mystery MORE of a mystery.

 

Telepaths do not deal in facts. They deal in perceptions. NPC's can have any and all of the following perceptions:

1. Feel responsable for something they didn't do.

2. Believe someone is guilty who isn't (and either be protecting them or out to get them)

3. Have a false memory of an event! (Do you realize how unreliable eyewitness testimony is?)

4. Have seen something important they don't know the significance of.

5. Not know anything because they paid no attention.

6. Bury a traumatic memory of a crime.

 

There are so many ways to hide events of a mystery to make the game MORE, not less, of mystery because a telepath is involved.

 

Creative storytelling makes having these characters around enhance your game, not make it harder.

 

(Yes, I am definitely pro-telepath. They are my favoriate characters.)

[Rechan]

You know, not to defend DnD here, but I DID run a successful mystery with it. A good ol' Who Dunnit, where the PCs used next to NO detection magic (That and they really didn't flex their magical muscles beyond combat normally, but they were very good roleplayers).

 

And remember kids, a mystery doesn't have to be WHO. The WHO can be answered right off the bat. Instead, the WHY. Take for instance, PCs are fighting Dr. Destroyer. Half way through the battle, Destroyer's helmet is blown off and it's... a teenage girl! Destroyer gets away, but the PCs are left with '... WTF?' and now have to figure out WHY a teenager is in Destroyer's threads.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Rechan

And remember kids, a mystery doesn't have to be WHO. The WHO can be answered right off the bat. Instead, the WHY. Take for instance, PCs are fighting Dr. Destroyer. Half way through the battle, Destroyer's helmet is blown off and it's... a teenage girl! Destroyer gets away, but the PCs are left with '... WTF?' and now have to figure out WHY a teenager is in Destroyer's threads.

 

I agree. Who, what, where, when or why. Any one is relevant for a mystery stumper.

 

To play devils advocate:

Telepathic Player: I scan the teenagers mind to find out her motivations.

 

GM:Uh-Oh.

LOL. Of course, that would tell them why, unless you put another twist in it.

[Kevin]

There is also the investigative story line that Law & Order uses all the time:

 

The investigators know perfectly well who did the crime.

The criminal is laughing at them because the investigators cannot prove a thing.

The challenge comes up in PROVING what took place, gathering evidence and witnesses, getting them to come forward, etc.

Or in figuring out motives.

Or in untangling a shell game of perpetrators and many different motives.

[Victim]

Originally posted by assault

Yes, and how many decent mystery scenarios have you seen in DnD?

 

Detective fiction is one of the major roots of the superhero genre. Unfortunately, certain powers can make it can be difficult to explore this.

 

It would be fabulous to be able to deal with a superheroic version of "The Maltese Falcon", wouldn't it? It would certainly beat "yet another slugfest against supervillain team #483".

 

 

 

Anyway, as I mentioned, I use few superbeings in my game. As such, I like to get a lot of mileage out of my normals. It's easy for them to be physically overwhelmed, but beating them mentally is a whole other story. That's where the skill lies.

 

Alan

 

Well, I don't follow every adventure, so I don't know how many decent mystery scenarios there are. But many good adventures have some element of mystery to them. Investigation scenarios probably work better at lower levels (Death in Freeport, as an example). When bigger divinations and super high skills come into play, then things need more complications and adversaries capable of countering some of the PCs efforts.

 

If you're looking at other systems, how about Conspiracy X? The point of the game is investigation, and PCs get free psychic powers that can be used to ask yes or no questions (like Commune, except you have to guess cards to make them work). Biokinesis + hypnosis works much like mind control.

 

If you don't expect a normal guy with a gun to pose much of physical challenge to character loaded with combat powers, then why do you expect a normal guy to mentally challenge characters loaded with mental/investigation powers? Are those powers less super? If messing the PCs up in combat against agents requires well trained enemies with good equipment, diversionary tactics (bombs, hostages, rubble falling on civilians), and limited objectives (delay the heroes so X can happen, etc) since total victory is unlikely, then shouldn't similar methods be required for any would be criminal mastermind?

 

Telepathiclly attempting to discern the teenager's motivations might work. If you consider a confusing mix of reasons without context to be good data. And it doesn't tell you how or why she got ahold of the armor. Finally, everything you get from her is colored by her perceptions. You get information, yes. Useful or accurate info, well, maybe not.

[Rechan]

Also I find that Telepathy is not the biggest worry. Look at Mind Scan.

 

You get a powerful enough mind scan, it's like: "Oh, you guys want to find x bad guy?" *ZAP* over city. "BAM, I know where he is." And then BAM, brain attack.

 

Sure, it may not be that easy for EVERYONE with mind scan, but we're talking about the super mentalists, right?