Ellis Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 I'm a mean GM, apparently, for disallowing a PC to have an Entangle that uses non-STR CHA to get out of (ie: Entangle vs INT). Has anyone actually allowed this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNakagawa Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 Nah, they're just being cheese-monkeys. You can't justify a power that would neutralize 95% of all published villains with one hit. Not for 60AP, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaratustra Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 While most GMs will let a 30, 40 or even 60 STR pass, try to get a 40 INT through a GM. They'll either laugh at you or expect you to RP it and stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 My HEROglyphs column in Digital Hero #5 covered several aspects and optional rules for Entangles, including one on this very subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farkling Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 MY viewpoint is this:: Only if it is a small Entangle. I think ONE of my characters has a 33 INT. The rest are 10-23. EGO base would be worse. PRE would be pretty inflictive to them also. IF using canon Champs Universe, this would lash up most villains immediately, as they do not have overlyimpressive INT scores. Point out also that attacks will still hit an Entangle based on other CHAracteristics, and perhaps he seeks another power. My question is this... What is the special effect description for this attack? It really sounds like a cheesy effect with just the power query...and I am curious to know what precisely he has in mind? Charge him the "Based on ECV" or "AVLD" power advantage...that should hold the dice down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 Treat it similarly to a EGO Based Entangle, requiring a +1 1/4 overhead cost (similar to BOECV (+1) and Based On Ego Not STR (+1/4)). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 Originally posted by Steve Long My HEROglyphs column in Digital Hero #5 covered several aspects and optional rules for Entangles, including one on this very subject. Just pulled this up to reference it. Hmm. The article would seem to suggest that you could have a EGO based Entangle without BOECV, if it were merely targeted normally. Afterall, if you dont have to have something like BOECV for a PRE, INT, or COM based Entangle, then logically you shouldnt need it for an EGO based Entangle unless you intend for the power to be targeted vs ECV rather than DCV. It seems like if EGO Based Entangles MUST take BOECV as stated in FRED, then other 'Exotic' Entangles should have a comparable overall cost, but the HEROGlyphs article indicates otherwise. Ill have to give this some thought before Im comfortable with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNakagawa Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 A based entangle that can be affected by standard damage isn't quite so nasty as one that isn't, but still... Many bricks/martial artists are designed to use STR as their only or a large component of their attacks. take that capability away from them and they're basically useless. Allow a INT based entangle and you've got a cheap attack that can completely neutralize Grond, the Monster, Bulldozer, Ogre, Black Palladin, etc. Still too unbalanced, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellis Posted November 13, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 I had actually read Digital #5, but 'threw it out' by accident, and didn't feel like re-buying it. Probably I wasn't impressed with optional entangles that weren't STR or EGO, since most of the FRED advantages are for those. The AVLD idea sounds good, but he hasn't yet come up with a better justification, other than 'People do what my character wants because he has a 60 PRE.' (which I'm not sure I'm allowing either. Heck, with that many dice of PRE attack, who needs an entangle?) Thanks for all the advice everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 Originally posted by Zaratustra While most GMs will let a 30, 40 or even 60 STR pass, try to get a 40 INT through a GM. They'll either laugh at you or expect you to RP it and stuff. np, I have(of course, you just have to SOUND intellegent, and talk alot of sci-fi mumbo-jumbo). then again I've seen people buy up the int or pre and they couldn't RP it if their life depended on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 Originally posted by Ellis I had actually read Digital #5, but 'threw it out' by accident, and didn't feel like re-buying it. Probably I wasn't impressed with optional entangles that weren't STR or EGO, since most of the FRED advantages are for those. The AVLD idea sounds good, but he hasn't yet come up with a better justification, other than 'People do what my character wants because he has a 60 PRE.' (which I'm not sure I'm allowing either. Heck, with that many dice of PRE attack, who needs an entangle?) Thanks for all the advice everyone. Just re-download the issue. You don't need to purchase it again. Once an issue has been purchased by a particular account, it remains on that account (and available). Just login under the account that you used to purchase the issue and you're good to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugfromthearth Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 I would have two modifiers: AVLD to reflect that it is going against a cha not normally used to attack. and then I would do a straight cost multiplier using the cost multiplier for the cha to account for the extra cost per d6 of the cha. ie entangle vs CON would have an AVLD modifier, and then the cost of the power would be doubled (after all adv and lims applied) to reflect that CON is 10pts per d6 instead of 5. whereas entangle vs COM would have an AVLD and then the cost of the power would be halved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNakagawa Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 scaling the cost of such an entangle to the cost of the stat that affects it is a really bad idea. Con is a universally useful stat, and even with a cost four times that of Comeliness, the average villain has a higher Con than Comeliness. The number of villains that could mathematically affect a 2d6 entangle with a +1 def is pretty low. Most bricks seem to be on the homely side. It's real simple. If most characters can't get out of it most of the time, it's unbalanced. If you build an entangle that is affected by COM, then 90% of the bricks, martial artists and OAF wielders in the book are never ever going to get out. And that's WITHOUT it being half the cost of one that is affected by INT or PRE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 I think AVLD is probably the best model for this. I'm having trouble coming up with a special effect that really makes sense for this kind of thing, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffreyWKramer Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 Originally posted by Kristopher I think AVLD is probably the best model for this. I'm having trouble coming up with a special effect that really makes sense for this kind of thing, though. Same here. The best example I can come up with is an effect sort of like a DnD "Maze" spell, which I suppose could be an Entangle vs. INT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 Originally posted by JeffreyWKramer Same here. The best example I can come up with is an effect sort of like a DnD "Maze" spell, which I suppose could be an Entangle vs. INT. Since the targets actually go away for the duration of the spell, I did Maze w/ XDM http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Provider=Killer%20Shrike&Category=Universal#Maze All that aside, I can think of plenty of SFX for unusual Entangles; I just cant think why non EGO-based "Exotic Entangles" would be so much cheaper than EGO-based as indicated by the HEROGlyphs #5 article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 I allow BOECV Entangles vs Ego Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farkling Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 My point was that if the player can't come up with a special effect, then he can't buy the power. "People do what I say because I have a 60 PRE" is NOT a special effect. "People do what I say because of my forceful personality" is a special effect...but describes Mind Control...not an Entangle. Which is broken by EGO rolls over time...hmmm...perhaps allowing a different modifier on Mind Control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 INT based: A Mental puzzle that consumes the character until he can solve it PRE based Such a forcefull personality that the character is in great awe/Dredd of him (Think Super Presence attack) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 I think this kind of stuff is better simulated with Mind Control with the Limitation Set Command: "Freeze". In the first case, substitute INT Roll for EGO Roll as the Breakout Roll. I guess it would have to be NND too, since Mental Defense wouldn't protect against it. Originally posted by JmOz INT based: A Mental puzzle that consumes the character until he can solve it PRE based Such a forcefull personality that the character is in great awe/Dredd of him (Think Super Presence attack) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 Most of the SFX I see for these "entangle" powers seem to point to the use of other Powers for their effect. Mental paralysis is just Mind Control with the command to "not move". Entangles can be blasted out of, and even if it's based on EGO, meaning only "ego powers" can be used to break it's effect (in addition to EGO), it's just replaced the rules that another mentalist can break the effect of a mental power by rolling higher than the original effect. Mind Control is already there and it works. The same thing goes for most other types. A PRE based Entangle might be better bought as a huge amount of extra PRE with "Only To Make People Freeze In There Tracks For A While". It might even be cheeper then the Entangle. The "mental puzzle" sounds like a Mental Power (Control or Illusion) too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 Originally posted by Dust Raven Most of the SFX I see for these "entangle" powers seem to point to the use of other Powers for their effect. Totally agree. Why overcomplicate things when there are easy solutions at hand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugfromthearth Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 "Totally agree. Why overcomplicate things when there are easy solutions at hand?" bored at work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNakagawa Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 Originally posted by JmOz INT based: A Mental puzzle that consumes the character until he can solve it PRE based Such a forcefull personality that the character is in great awe/Dredd of him (Think Super Presence attack) That can be busted by a 1 INT, 1 PRE brick. (on the outside) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted November 16, 2003 Report Share Posted November 16, 2003 Originally posted by Zaratustra While most GMs will let a 30, 40 or even 60 STR pass, try to get a 40 INT through a GM. They'll either laugh at you or expect you to RP it and stuff. I don't have a problem with 40 INT, if it fits, just for the record. As to the thread, I've never witnessed an Entangle on INT so can't speak to it, really, haven't given it much thought, but it'd seem to me that any Entangle on a characteristic would be against that and not STR, DEPENDING on the SFX of the Entangle, of course. How would an Entangle on INT work, anyway? The ways I can think of would be better served by Drain, Dispel, Suppress, or Mind Control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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