Are tanks really that tough?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Nusoardgraphite where do you stat basic level thugs at?

Characteristics between 8 and 12 with maybe 1 stat in the 15 range. CV around 4. Speed 2 or 3. Defenses vary depending upon mission and equiment available.

[NuSoardGraphite]

You know how in 5th edition they decided to make the "everyman" with characteristics at all 8s? I think that is ridiculous. I rate the everyman with characteristics at 10. The average range is between 8 and 12. Making the average person at 8, totally throws that off. (I know some players feel that characters should be exceptional and since they begin with characteristics of 10,that average NPCs should start with 8, but those people ahould get a grip. Your charactere ARE exceptional, THATS WHY YOU START WITH 100+ POINTS!!!)

 

I start from that average and scale from there. A strong thug might have a Str between 13 and 15. A fast one a Dex of 14. A tough guy a Body of 13. Anyone with a Characteristic of 15+ is truly exceptional. People are going to remark on their capabilities. I observe normal characteristic maximums and encourage even superhero characters to stick to them if their characteristics are supposed to be normal. I try to have characteristics remain 30 or below whenever possible (STR being the exception of course) I have my benchmarks and they work extremely well for my style of play. And the characteristic range I run keeps things from spilling over into munchkin territory.

[NuSoardGraphite]

For Defenses I like to average 10 resistant, 20 total. I usually start with a 60 ap limit on powers. Heroic games defenses depends on genre. For fantasy the average is about 6 resistant and 12 total. For my space opera, the average is about 10 resistant but can go as high as 20 (depending on equipment loadout) but the damage of weapons is considerably higher than in fantasy games (not counting mage spells or really powerful magic weapons).

[massey]

Here are stats as I see them:

 

8  --  Lowest common denominator.  "Bad" average.  Couch potatoes, old fogies, Wal-Mart shoppers.

10  --  Average healthy adult.

13  --  Above average, but not by a lot.  Smartest guy in your non-honors English class.

15  --  Noticeably better than average.  High school quarterback.

18  --  Best you are likely to encounter in day to day life.  Prettiest cheerleader.  Smartest kid in school.  

20  --  One of the best in his professional field.  Professional athlete, NASA scientist.

23 - 25  --  One of the best in the world.  While unpowered, definitely not "normal".  Real world Bruce Lee, Michael Jordan, Stephen Hawking, etc.

28 - 30  --  Exaggerated human ability.  Nobody in the real world can do this.  Arnold in the movies, Bruce Lee with multiple takes and stuntmen,etc.

 

This gives us a significant range for normal humans.  A pretty good high school athlete is going to have something like Str 13, Dex 12, Con 13, maybe a 3 Spd and 8" of Running.  The kid is obviously more athletic than a lot of people, but he's probably not good enough to get a college scholarship.  You can probably get there with a good frame and regular exercise.  A comic book "thug" needs to be big and scary, so he's probably got something like Str 15, Dex 14, Con 13, with 15 Pre and 3 Spd.  He was probably the toughest kid in high school.  Somebody like LeBron James probably has Str, Dex, and Con in the 18-20 range, with maybe his Dex edging up to 23, PS: Basketball Player at 15-, and maybe 2 or 3 skill levels with "basketball maneuvers".

 

Engaging in superhuman activities gives you justification for higher stats than that.  So it is possible to get a guy with a 30 Dex, 7 Spd.  You might not have powers, but you are by no means "normal".

[NuSoardGraphite]

The world record deeadlift is 1018lbs or 462kg. STR 20 is 400kg or 880lbs. So the holder of the world record has a 21 STR, or a 22 STR if you conssider deadlift to he 90% of your max lifting capacity (i consider max lift to be equivalent to deadlift, but thats not RAW)

 

Going by that benchmark, I am hardpressed to place even heroic non-powered humans of any kind over a 23 in any Characteristic. Doing this helps to define characteristics higher than this at a truly superhuman level, preventing the desire for players to boost their characteristics above 30 to feel special.

[Ninja-Bear]

I heard people use the Marvel lifting rate for Hero. I guess it gives you a better spread.

[Hugh Neilson]

I think "how your character compares to real world benchmarks" has far less impact on whether the character feels special than how he performs in the game. If every burly dude encountered in the game has a STR of 25+, the fact that my 23 is better than the top Olympic weightlifter does not make my character feel especially strong when playing the game. If we never encounter anyone with an STR above 15, and rarely, if ever, encounter someone with a 13 or higher STR, my 18 feels pretty impressive.

 

But if we get into a brawl, and my character is more or less equally effective to all those other characters whose STR is unexceptional, then my STR starts to feel pretty unexceptional as well.

[procyon]

We play 4e, but I have no problem with a lot of the stat being 8's for average people.

Most folks that aren't weight lifters aren't going to be able to pick up 200 kg, without engaging in what I would consider 'pushing'.

Which fits just fine with an 8.

And an 8 for Dex or Ego still has the same CV as a 10.  Same characteristic roll also.

But it makes 'nobodies' a lot more likely to drop and 'play nice' quickly when fists & cars start flying around.

It also makes them a bit more fragile should a player get a bit 'carried away', or if someone pulls a gun.

 

So I have no problem with an 8 as the average stat.

[bigbywolfe]

We play 4e, but I have no problem with a lot of the stat being 8's for average people.

Most folks that aren't weight lifters aren't going to be able to pick up 200 kg, without engaging in what I would consider 'pushing'.

Which fits just fine with an 8.

And an 8 for Dex or Ego still has the same CV as a 10.  Same characteristic roll also.

But it makes 'nobodies' a lot more likely to drop and 'play nice' quickly when fists & cars start flying around.

It also makes them a bit more fragile should a player get a bit 'carried away', or if someone pulls a gun.

 

So I have no problem with an 8 as the average stat.

STR 10 is 100 kg, not 200 kg, and that's only what they can lift, stagger a few steps, and drop.  I'm no weight lifter and I can definitely pick up something 220 lbs. depending on it's shape and size.

[Ninja-Bear]

I think "how your character compares to real world benchmarks" has far less impact on whether the character feels special than how he performs in the game. If every burly dude encountered in the game has a STR of 25+, the fact that my 23 is better than the top Olympic weightlifter does not make my character feel especially strong when playing the game. If we never encounter anyone with an STR above 15, and rarely, if ever, encounter someone with a 13 or higher STR, my 18 feels pretty impressive.

 

But if we get into a brawl, and my character is more or less equally effective to all those other characters whose STR is unexceptional, then my STR starts to feel pretty unexceptional as well.

This can be tough to balance especially in Heroic games. I once build a hero very close to "realistic" and ran a battle against skilled normals and he lost badly though his comic said he can take on several foes at once. So I will error on the side of cinematic if it helps the heroes-since they are important. I also take in account if its a solo game or several players involved. But I think tbat some of the published agents are a little high powered which in turn makes the players higher powered.

[massey]

The world record deeadlift is 1018lbs or 462kg. STR 20 is 400kg or 880lbs. So the holder of the world record has a 21 STR, or a 22 STR if you conssider deadlift to he 90% of your max lifting capacity (i consider max lift to be equivalent to deadlift, but thats not RAW)

 

Going by that benchmark, I am hardpressed to place even heroic non-powered humans of any kind over a 23 in any Characteristic. Doing this helps to define characteristics higher than this at a truly superhuman level, preventing the desire for players to boost their characteristics above 30 to feel special.

 

I don't pay attention to that because it isn't cinematic.  Again, I'm not playing Real World Hero.  In the real world if you get shot, it may require months of physical therapy.  You can have nerve damage and never fully regain the use of your arm/hand/etc.  There's no reason for me to give cinematic leniency to everything else but then say "oh yeah, I've been checking the records for weightlifters, and..."

[NuSoardGraphite]

This can be tough to balance especially in Heroic games. I once build a hero very close to "realistic" and ran a battle against skilled normals and he lost badly though his comic said he can take on several foes at once. So I will error on the side of cinematic if it helps the heroes-since they are important. I also take in account if its a solo game or several players involved. But I think tbat some of the published agents are a little high powered which in turn makes the players higher powered.

This is where Martial Arts and Skill Levels come into play. Even though a characters Characteristic are still well within the range of normal, skill and experience allows them to perform well above the average.

 

And yes, I agree that the stats of mere "agent" level characters is too high, which in turn gives players the impression that their characters need to have extraoridinarily high stats in order to exceed agent level. If the vast majority of normal characters fall within the 8-12 range, with little in the way of combat skills, Agent level characters (special forces, elite government agents etc) in the 13-15 range with a moderate amount of combat skills (martial arts and a few skill levels) will almost always defeat a normal. It only takes a difference of 2 between the CV to significantly shift the odds. (CV 5 vs CV 3 is 13- to hit and 9- to be hit).

[NuSoardGraphite]

In any case, these are just my thoughts and experiences with scaling characters in Hero so that elements like weapons, vehicles and armor feel right to me. Be aware that much of my tests and experiments in this area were more for the purposes of simulating Heroic genres like fantasy and space opera. I wanted to generate a good feel for military grade weapons combat and vehicular combat. I have found it to work exceedingly well over the years. I also prefer lower powered supers games where superheroes for the most part are the equivalent of Agent level characters, or maybe exceptional humans, but with some superpowers added on top of their characteristics and skills. Basically the power level of early X-men. I want the tank to be a sigfnificant threat to most of them. None of the X-men want to be hit by that 120mmm apfsdsdu round at 6d6k damage. It would kill most x-men except Colossus (i would rate colossus at 20r def 35 total with 50% damage reduction). Marvel girl can defend against it with her FF and of course Magneto could do the same. Cyclops, Kitty Pride, Iceman, Gambit, Storm would all be highly vulnerable to such an attack (well, not Kitty, she would just phase by reflex) and even Wolverine would be knocked out and temporarily disabled by such an attack.

 

Of course, if I want to go the next level of power up above that (Fantastic Four and Avengers) then thats more starting points (350 vs 250) higher characteristic benchmarkes (23-30 vs 15-23) and higher active point maximums (90 vs 60). If I want to go the next level up to Justice league, it goes up ecen higher. At that level, the tank is not very much of a threat.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I don't pay attention to that because it isn't cinematic. Again, I'm not playing Real World Hero. In the real world if you get shot, it may require months of physical therapy. You can have nerve damage and never fully regain the use of your arm/hand/etc. There's no reason for me to give cinematic leniency to everything else but then say "oh yeah, I've been checking the records for weightlifters, and..."

Its just a benchmark to show the practical limits of human ability. Eventually that record will be broken. It is a useful tool to help you scale your game. If as you said, you want very cinematic play, then you know where the practical limits are and by how much you wish to exceed them.

 

This also serves to show that the Normal Characteristic Maximum is just about dead on, and that the vast majority of humanity should not exceed it, or in most cases, come even close. To show that a character with a Strength score of above 22 is within the range of what would be considered superhuman.

[Ninja-Bear]

Fwiw, I made a decision to modify the goons listed in DC:TAS to bring them in line with the bemchmarks listed in Fifth ed rev. Also I'll rebuy their costumes from armor to just resistant defenses.

[Hugh Neilson]

This can be tough to balance especially in Heroic games. I once build a hero very close to "realistic" and ran a battle against skilled normals and he lost badly though his comic said he can take on several foes at once. So I will error on the side of cinematic if it helps the heroes-since they are important. I also take in account if its a solo game or several players involved. But I think tbat some of the published agents are a little high powered which in turn makes the players higher powered.

This is a perfect illustration - my character has the abilities of a well-trained, but normal, human. He is also capable of taking out several agents, and holding his own against standard Supers, based on my vision of the character (which is probably based on the source material character or characters I am envisioning him being similar to). When those normal human stats can't hold up against the type of opponents he is supposed to be capable of handling, then something has to give. It's not going to be my vision of the character, so I guess it has to be the stats of a top end "normal human".

 

This is where Martial Arts and Skill Levels come into play. Even though a characters Characteristic are still well within the range of normal, skill and experience allows them to perform well above the average.

It can. My bias is that backstory and conception should not determine effectiveness. If the character is overpriced obtaining his abilities from Martial Arts and skill levels, then that's not a viable option. And, again, a lot depends on the specific game. Does it make sense for my Supers character who is expected to be in the average range of his peers for hitting and getting hit, to have 8 skill levels so his "normal human" 4 OCV and 4 DCV can be at the campaign norm level of 8? That seems like a lot of training and practice for a guy who was a normal guy until a radiation accident last week.

 

As well, neither my vision of the character nor the campaign norms suggest he should be able to have a 15 DCV when Dodging (but he can - what else are those skill levels good for if he Dodges?) or a 12 OCV if he foregoes his DCV, or an extra 4d6 of damage to help break a force bubble or Entangle (when neither OCV nor DCV will be of real use). So either he pays for the flexibility of those skill levels, but never uses it, or he departs from conception because "the system" forces him to. Neither would be necessary if we did not adopt a structure where being a "normal human" precludes emulation of the source material.

 

Which leads to:

 

And yes, I agree that the stats of mere "agent" level characters is too high, which in turn gives players the impression that their characters need to have extraoridinarily high stats in order to exceed agent level. If the vast majority of normal characters fall within the 8-12 range, with little in the way of combat skills, Agent level characters (special forces, elite government agents etc) in the 13-15 range with a moderate amount of combat skills (martial arts and a few skill levels) will almost always defeat a normal. It only takes a difference of 2 between the CV to significantly shift the odds. (CV 5 vs CV 3 is 13- to hit and 9- to be hit).

I will suggest it does not give them the impression they need extraordinarily high stats. It creates the need for those extraordinary stats to achieve the vision of the character. Stat inflation, especially DEX and SPD, came with the sample characters in the very first edition. We had the VIPER agent with what, a 14 DEX and 3 SPD. Surely that Super is better than a VIPER agent? And indeed, even the slowest Super had a DEX of 18 and a 4 SPD - and that was clearly a "very slow Super". The average Super had a at least a 23 DEX, often a 26, and certainly a minimum SPD of 5, and faster Supers pushed DEX to 30+ and SPD to 6+.

 

To then tell Captain America's player that he should max out at DEX 20 and SPD 4 when characters based on adversaries he clearly is vastly more fast and agile than in the comics just doesn't ring true to the character's vision, but that's the "normal human maximum", right? Remember, he's not supposed to be Superhuman. Build a Clayface or a Blockbuster for a standard Supers campaign, and they will have CV's of about 7-8, DEX about 20 - 23 and SPD 4 or 5. Fits about right with the published norms. Now, try running 5 CV, 20 DEX, 4 SPD "peak normal human" Batman against them. We quickly discover we either accept "highly trained combatant" as a justifiable SFX for increased OCV, DCV, DEX and SPD, or we have no normal human highly trained combatants because they're just not point-efficient and effective in the game.

 

And why not? Those highly trained normal humans in the comics are always demonstrably faster than their superhuman opponents, with better CV's and SPDs across the board, so this is consistent with the source material.

 

Could the game run differently? Sure - we could have had 11 DEX, 4 CV, 2 SPD agents and held the exceptionally slow Supers to the same, or even an 8 DEX, 3 CV. Exceptional Bricks could have had 11 DEX, 4 CV and 3 SPD. Typical Supers might have had a 14 DEX, 5 CV and a 3 SPD. Now, that Peak Trained Normal, with his 20 DEX, 7 CV and 4 SPD is pretty impressive. He waltzes through those agents, and holds his own against most Supers. But that ship sailed when the first copy of 1e set the bar for Supers DEX/CV in the 18 - 30/6 - 10 range.

 

I also prefer lower powered supers games where superheroes for the most part are the equivalent of Agent level characters, or maybe exceptional humans, but with some superpowers added on top of their characteristics and skills. Basically the power level of early X-men.

How early? That sounds like Lee/Kirby, not Colossus, to me. But 35 pd (20r) plus 50% damage reduction, isnt what I wolod call low-powered Supers either. The power level by Giant Sized X-Men #1 was a Cyclops who could blast through Sentinels (Havok being in a similar ballpark), a Beast who could take on a Sentinel while wearing devices designed to restrain the Toad (from the last go 'round the original X-Men had against the Sentinels). Those were the comparables for starting Colossus, Storm, etc.

 

6d6 killing damage would demolish most Supers for whom Defense is not a schtick. That's where we got the Combat Luck conceit (or the "everyone's costume, however flimsy in appearance, is made from Unstable Molecules and is therefore beyond bulletproof").

 

Of course, if I want to go the next level of power up above that (Fantastic Four and Avengers) then thats more starting points (350 vs 250) higher characteristic benchmarkes (23-30 vs 15-23) and higher active point maximums (90 vs 60). If I want to go the next level up to Justice league, it goes up ecen higher. At that level, the tank is not very much of a threat.

Now we get the challenge of comparables. The X-Men individually are pretty often shown to be the equals of individual Avengers (as early as Avengers #110/111 back in the early '70s, when we only had the original X-Men), and the FF members seem pretty comparable in similar issues. Justice League/Avengers some years back (and other DC/Marvel crossovers) set their power levels as generally pretty comparable. Of course, depending on the issue, Spider Man goes toe to toe with the Hulk, or has a tough time with the Kingpin or the Ox, so source material power levels are pretty tough to pin down.

 

Although, coming back to the original topic, a tank never seems to be much of a threat to any but the most street level of Supers. Not surprising - if the tank would simply crush Our Hero, then he's going to cleverly avoid it - otherwise, next issue's 20 or so pages of a stain on the battlefield probably won't sell all that well. Hulk will crush it (and probably several others) as a reaffirmation of what it means to be the "strongest one there is". Daredevil will use his hyper-senses to find a weak point, or a way to access the occupants while his super-senses allow him to avoid being hit, or stealth to avoid detection by the tank in the first place. But both, and every hero in between, will somehow neutralize any threat the tank offers. That should be just as possible using the game stats for that tank against the homage characters.

[Hugh Neilson]

The problem is often that game play requires compromises. I flash back to the designer notes to the old Mayfair DC Supers game. One comment was on the point in playtest where the decision that all combat, even a gunfight, defaults to "non-lethal attacks". When a series of lucky rolls saw a couple of thugs quickly reduce The Batman to The Batstain in a round or two of combat. In the comics, that lucky shot would crease his skull, knocking him out (miraculously, with no long term side effects). So that is what should happen in the game.

 

"Realism" is a twisty concept. I recall a discussion at a FLCS some years back with a fellow starting with "I only like realistic heroes - like the Punisher". Really? A guy in his mid-40's who has had every bone in his body broken, most multiple times, been shot, stabbed, burned, blown up, etc. who has healed perfectly with no lasting impairment to his physical abilities every time, is "realistic"?

[procyon]

STR 10 is 100 kg, not 200 kg, and that's only what they can lift, stagger a few steps, and drop.  I'm no weight lifter and I can definitely pick up something 220 lbs. depending on it's shape and size.

Oops.  Meant 200 lbs.

But with RAW, a Str 10 of Speed 2 could pick up 200+ pounds (essentially a 45 lb Olympic style weight bar with 2 45 lb plates on each end), and carry it around for a turn (12 seconds) and only be out 2 (or 4 if you use 1 End per 5 Str) End.  Either way, he will be able to carry around that bar with 4 plates indefinitely.

 

So could the average person get that bar off the ground - probably.  But if that means they are 'pushing' (because they are Str 8), at least they are going to start running out of End after a bit.  It would still take longer than most folks will in real life, but at least they are going to get tired doing it.

 

But this is pretty much my way of making 'normal folk' feel a bit more like RL to me, and it makes 'mooks' and nobodies far more fragile so that the actual 'notable agents' do seem to be pretty resilient compared to the folks around them.  Without having to inflate the PC's so that they seem 'appropriately tough'

 

Which I am afraid is why we have a tank that can survive being airdropped into combat without needing a parachute.  Weapons got scaled up so that they 'felt tough enough' and then other things got drug along.

[Hugh Neilson]

Why can the speedster "effortlessly carry" his maximum lift when the rules say he can "just manage to lift it off the ground, stagger for a step or two, then drop"? Because we don't read and follow the rules. At RAW, that STR 10, SPD 2 speedster can "easily carry or lift the weight which he can pick up with his Casual STR", so 50 kg, still over 100 lb.

 

If we want more realism/grit, we can go to p 6e2 45 and see that, carrying that 50 kg (50 - 74% of max lift), he should also suffer -3 to his DCV and DEX rolls, -4 meters of movement and spend an extra 2 END per turn.

 

Part of the disconnect is that we look at the STR chart, which says 100 kg, and don't look any further, so we proceed on the assumption that the maximum possible lift is both sustainable and fairly effortless.

 

For even more grit, look to long-term END. If we imposed that optional rule in Supers games, we would see a lot of battles end with exhausted Supers needing a day or two of bed rest to recover.

[procyon]

Why can the speedster "effortlessly carry" his maximum lift when the rules say he can "just manage to lift it off the ground, stagger for a step or two, then drop"? Because we don't read and follow the rules. At RAW, that STR 10, SPD 2 speedster can "easily carry or lift the weight which he can pick up with his Casual STR", so 50 kg, still over 100 lb.

 

If we want more realism/grit, we can go to p 6e2 45 and see that, carrying that 50 kg (50 - 74% of max lift), he should also suffer -3 to his DCV and DEX rolls, -4 meters of movement and spend an extra 2 END per turn.

 

Part of the disconnect is that we look at the STR chart, which says 100 kg, and don't look any further, so we proceed on the assumption that the maximum possible lift is both sustainable and fairly effortless.

 

For even more grit, look to long-term END. If we imposed that optional rule in Supers games, we would see a lot of battles end with exhausted Supers needing a day or two of bed rest to recover.

Which actually happens a lot in my games (I will use LTE and Enc rules, particularly if someone who isn't a brick is trying to carry someone else out of a battle or danger. Although I allow recovery of LTE faster than in the RAW, but still not quickly enough to be regained during a fight - but we do use 4e so I don't know how the current rules read...).

 

RAW say 'barely lift and stagger' - but have no mechanics to support that.  As written, the max lift actually functions as 'what can be carried without excessive effort'.  So that is how I approach it.  So 'normals' get Str 8.  A 10 Str is someone who is pretty well trained and with pretty good stamina under a load.  Most folks can't pack around 100 kg for any significant amount of time, but the rules don't prevent it.

 

Once again, this is just my interpretation to try and make 'normal folks' seem a bit less powerful, and make the PC's and agents stand out more.

[massey]

At the end of the day, this is a game.  It is designed to simulate comic books, heroic fantasy, space opera, etc.  Those genres don't always mix well with boring real life.  The game is not going to be a perfect simulation of all these genres at once.  So the question becomes -- what is important to get right?

 

To me, having a perfect representation of my 85 year old grandmother is one of the least important aspects of the game.  I'm not really going to be playing that character, ever.  The likelihood of a wayward attack striking and killing an elderly bystander is entirely dependent on the needs of the story.  In an rpg, bystanders are scenery.  It is much more important to the game to get the interaction between the PCs and the active NPCs correct.  Granny isn't likely to be making use of things such as OCV, or max lifting capacity, or END.  She is there to be threatened.

 

Is it ever important to see how much a STR 10 normal can lift and carry?  I don't think I've ever been in a game, Hero system or otherwise, where the exact lifting capacity of an average person ever came up.  Not once.

 

This is the exact same problem that has led us to 30 rPD tanks.  That problem is that people have found the one thing in the game that they care about more than anything else.  And they are so damn determined to make sure this one thing is done just perfect.  They are going to flip their lid if a .50 cal machine gun so much as scratches an Abrams, or if a 6 1/2 foot tall thug is given a 25 Str.  The problem is that these things are not what the game is about.  Getting them right is not the intent.  If you are watching a comedy, you care about Will Farrell doing stupid things.  You are probably not watching the movie and doing calculations to make sure they got the gas mileage of his car correct.

 

The game rules do not exactly mirror reality, and never have.  If that is your standard, you will be sorely disappointed.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Why can the speedster "effortlessly carry" his maximum lift when the rules say he can "just manage to lift it off the ground, stagger for a step or two, then drop"? Because we don't read and follow the rules. At RAW, that STR 10, SPD 2 speedster can "easily carry or lift the weight which he can pick up with his Casual STR", so 50 kg, still over 100 lb.

 

If we want more realism/grit, we can go to p 6e2 45 and see that, carrying that 50 kg (50 - 74% of max lift), he should also suffer -3 to his DCV and DEX rolls, -4 meters of movement and spend an extra 2 END per turn.

 

Part of the disconnect is that we look at the STR chart, which says 100 kg, and don't look any further, so we proceed on the assumption that the maximum possible lift is both sustainable and fairly effortless.

 

For even more grit, look to long-term END. If we imposed that optional rule in Supers games, we would see a lot of battles end with exhausted Supers needing a day or two of bed rest to recover.

I am a big fan of a lot of the optional rules in Hero. I always observe Enc and in some games LTE as well.

[Hugh Neilson]

Which actually happens a lot in my games (I will use LTE and Enc rules, particularly if someone who isn't a brick is trying to carry someone else out of a battle or danger. Although I allow recovery of LTE faster than in the RAW, but still not quickly enough to be regained during a fight - but we do use 4e so I don't know how the current rules read...).

 

RAW say 'barely lift and stagger' - but have no mechanics to support that.  As written, the max lift actually functions as 'what can be carried without excessive effort'.  So that is how I approach it.

How you approach it is your choice. The rules approach it by saying that this is the amount a character may just lift, stagger a couple of steps and drop, so to me the rules are saying that, as a full phase action, that 10 STR character can heft 100kg off the ground, stagger a couple of steps forward, then dropping it. Cost: 2 END (1 for 10 STR and 1 for movement). He can probably keep lifting, staggering, dropping, lifting and staggering for a while.

 

Now, when I turn to Encumbrance, I find more mechanics - the character has a -5 DCV and DEX roll. He loses 16 meters of movement (there's that "barely stagger forward" covered) and he spends an extra 4 END per turn. So my 10 STR character can move that 100 kg Whatsit just a bit further each phase, and is spending 8 END per turn. Assuming he has 20 END and 4 REC, consistent with his 10 STR. He'll run out of END at the end of the fourth turn, get a PS 12 and through Turn 5, starting Turn 6 with 0 END (assuming we apply the per turn END loss and PS 12 REC at the same time). So he can keep this up for about a minute.

 

So he can't really pack that 100 kg around for any great length of time if we use the grittier aspects of the RAW. If we're cinematic, maybe we ignore encumbrance and that 10 STR fellow can haul his disabled teammate all day. But we've made the decision to sacrifice realism for cinematics, and removed two rules (encumbrance, and "max lift = heft off the ground and stagger a step or two") to make it happen. Really, we've boosted everyone's lift - the next assertion will be that, surely, if I can carry 100kg all day, I should be able to push, pull or drag something heavier a bit of distance!

 

Now, we can also add the optional rule of LTE, if we want to reduce cinematics further in favour of realism. Our example fellow is spending 2x REC per turn, so he loses 1 LTE per turn as well. If, after that first minute of exertion, he wants to catch his breath, he'll max out at 15 END now - 5 turns of burning 1 LTE per turn. If we wants to keep lugging that weight, he will soon find himself utterly exhausted (run out of LTE).

 

At the end of the day, this is a game.  It is designed to simulate comic books, heroic fantasy, space opera, etc.  Those genres don't always mix well with boring real life.  The game is not going to be a perfect simulation of all these genres at once.  So the question becomes -- what is important to get right?

Very true.

 

Is it ever important to see how much a STR 10 normal can lift and carry?  I don't think I've ever been in a game, Hero system or otherwise, where the exact lifting capacity of an average person ever came up.  Not once.

I think it is much more plausible that the exact lifting capacity of a PC may come up. That 10 STR wizard or technician or Mentalist may want to haul a teammate out of harm's way, or carry a panicking civilian off the map.

 

But I agree with the broader point - to me, that Abrams as designed is useless as it will serve no purpose in any game genre structured under Hero. Sure, I can give all the Supers enough points to have a 40 DC attack, so they will routinely pass material damage through the front of that tank. And the 125 PD, 60 rPD they'll need to weather their opponents' 40 DC attacks will more than suffice to make the tank's gun a minor threat. But I can't use any of the other written source material now without extensive rewrites. And the Abrams still takes down the real estate far faster than I find reasonable, and also survives a fall from orbit.

 

Fixing the tank to be more consistent with the stats of everything else makes a lot more sense than fixing the stats of everything else to be consistent with the tank.

[massey]

I think it is much more plausible that the exact lifting capacity of a PC may come up. That 10 STR wizard or technician or Mentalist may want to haul a teammate out of harm's way, or carry a panicking civilian off the map.

 

But I agree with the broader point - to me, that Abrams as designed is useless as it will serve no purpose in any game genre structured under Hero. Sure, I can give all the Supers enough points to have a 40 DC attack, so they will routinely pass material damage through the front of that tank. And the 125 PD, 60 rPD they'll need to weather their opponents' 40 DC attacks will more than suffice to make the tank's gun a minor threat. But I can't use any of the other written source material now without extensive rewrites. And the Abrams still takes down the real estate far faster than I find reasonable, and also survives a fall from orbit.

 

Fixing the tank to be more consistent with the stats of everything else makes a lot more sense than fixing the stats of everything else to be consistent with the tank.

 

Yeah that's true.  I'm not arguing trying to change the lifting chart.  If a wizard has 10 Str, we know what he can pick up.  But he's a PC (or major NPC) and so he is important.  He's actually got a character sheet.  "Guy at the mall" doesn't normally have a character sheet.  He's going to be as strong or as weak as the story demands.  I'm not playing "Average Man Lifts Barbell And Walks Across Half The City Hero" where it is vitally important that you simulate the average guy's strength and endurance.  Since it is basically never going to come up, it's not important.

 

I suppose you could have a guy carry another person across the desert, but even then it's either a PC doing it, or its an NPC and whether they succeed or not will be a plot point, not a matter of game stats.

[massey]

I like a decent spread in my "important NPC" stats, and that's why I use the numbers I do.  I can have normal people be 10s, big scary thugs have Viper agent stats with 15s, and then I can have a professional boxer or somebody show up who has 18-20s.  If Mohammed Ali needs to show up in a time travel adventure, he can have 20 Str and 26 Dex, 5 Spd and 15 PD, and throw a 10D6 offensive strike, because he's "The Greatest".  He can whoop a few Viper agents all by himself, and while he won't beat a PC, he can be respectable enough for the players to have fun with it.