Are tanks really that tough?

[Hugh Neilson]

Spiderman generally uses those extra points of speed to dodge. And Cap uses a lot of Block maneuvers so there will be times when Cap and Spidey act in the same phase, akd because he blocked, Cap will get to counterattack, preempting Spideys high Dex. Hero is awesome like that.

Assuming his 30 DEX provides a 10 CV vs Cap's 7, why would Spidey need to dodge? His superior OCV will also reduce the effectiveness of Blocks, especially Blocks he can attack more than once due to his superior SPD.

 

6e has leveled the field somewhat over prior editions where DEX was king and skill levels vastly overpriced.

 

Most of the xmen primary characteristics fall into the 16-20 category due to training, unless that characteristic is a part of their power set, like Nightcrawlers Dex or Wolverines Str and Con. For certain, Cyclops Dex is not a part of his powerset and it should remain in the human zone, but he has trained it to the point that it is probably 18-20 range. However he has tons of CSLs with his optic beams, ranged martial arts and a pretty extensive Multipower with a bunch of tricks (auto fire and continuous and armor piercing and AoE cone and double knockback etc)

So we give Cyclops an 18-20 DEX because he's trained, then we top Captain America out at 20 DEX because he's a highly trained human? Doesn't sound much like the comparison of Cap and Cyclops I'd expect to see from the comics.

 

Hawkeye gets brushed off as "street level", but he started his career as a credible threat to Iron Man, then moved directly into the Avengers. Seems like he should be competitive with Iron Man and other Avengers - and he probably needs extra phases to dodge against that kind of offense, doesn't he? "Skilled/Trained Human" is a backstory just like "mutant", "exposed to weird forces", "powered armor" or any other comic book origin. There's no reason those characters need to be any less "super" - they aren't in the comics, so they should not be in a game simulating the comics.

[Hugh Neilson]

Hey, where did the tanks go?

[massey]

On the Marvel Wiki, superhuman speed and reflexes is listed as one of Wolverines powers and it mentions the first time wolvie and spidey battled and spiderman though wolverine was faster than him.

 

 

You can't always trust those Wikis.  I haven't read the first Wolvie/Spidey fight, so I can't say whether that is true or not.  I will say that of all the comics I've read, I've never seen Wolvie portrayed as anything approaching Spidey speed.

 

 

 

Spiderman generally uses those extra points of speed to dodge. And Cap uses a lot of Block maneuvers so there will be times when Cap and Spidey act in the same phase, akd because he blocked, Cap will get to counterattack, preempting Spideys high Dex. Hero is awesome like that.

 

 

That's going to be the case regardless of where you set your benchmarks, though.

 

 

 

I try to keep my Characteristic scores within certain benchmarks based on the characters position in the hierarchy, then use powers, skill levels and martial arts to fill out th rest if necessary. 10-15 is normal. 16-20 is gifted (most supers whos characteristic is not superhuman fall into this range) 21-25 is exceptional (low end super) 26-30 is superior (normal super) 31-40 is supernal (high end super) 41+ is cosmic. Obviously STR doesnt necessarily folllow these guidelines.

 

Most of the xmen primary characteristics fall into the 16-20 category due to training, unless that characteristic is a part of their power set, like Nightcrawlers Dex or Wolverines Str and Con. For certain, Cyclops Dex is not a part of his powerset and it should remain in the human zone, but he has trained it to the point that it is probably 18-20 range. However he has tons of CSLs with his optic beams, ranged martial arts and a pretty extensive Multipower with a bunch of tricks (auto fire and continuous and armor piercing and AoE cone and double knockback etc)

 

Same goes for Defense. Unlesss the character is known for toughness or unkillability, their defenses will probably range between the 10 and 15 for normal defenses and 8-12 in resistant defenses. Cyclops has a physical defense of 10, an energy defense of 15 and a resistant defense of 12 from his x-suit made of unstable molecules. Goons weilding assault rifles that do 2d6k damage (equivalent to an M4) do an average of 7 body and 21 stun, which does nothing to Cyclops. He is effectively bullet proof. He wades through a hail of gunfire and using his Skill levels and his autofire slot, is able to take out 5 goons in 1 phase with a sweep of his optic beams. Thats pretty much Cyclops in a nutshell, and I didnt have to give him a 25 Dex and a 6 speed to make him perform to his comic book standard.

 

We all have the right to interpret characters differently.  I'm not going to say that your way is "wrong".  Whatever works for your game is fine.  I personally prefer to have my Marvel and DC characters match standard Champions characters.  Cyclops ends up looking a lot like Oculon, for some strange reason.

 

I've written up Cyke probably half a dozen different ways over the years.  One of the builds was a very metagamey version that gave him like 50 PD and ED, because in a group battle Cyclops seemed to be one of the last to fall.  As the leader of the X-Men and a main character, he was usually standing at the end of a fight (at least in the comics I read).  So I gave him his base defense, and then a lot of extra Def that was "visible" (in the game sense only) so that opponents would "know" not to bother targeting him.  When his teammates fell, so would Cyke's Defense.  So if you waited to shoot him last, then he'd be pretty easy to take down, but you'd be penalized if you acted against genre and unloaded on him first thing.

 

In the end, I decided I didn't care for that approach, and wanted to use more subtle ways of representing Cyke's battlefield longevity.  That version was too video-gamey for me and I decided against it.  But that doesn't mean it is wrong.  Stats are really just abstractions that represent certain game concepts.

 

My versions of characters has varied quite a bit, depending on what comic I read most recently and what way I decided to mirror that in game.  "Super-accurate shooting" might be a lot of combat levels, or it might be +3D6 killing attack, because you shot the guy in the cornea.  Extra Speed and Dex can mean the same thing.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Assuming his 30 DEX provides a 10 CV vs Cap's 7, why would Spidey need to dodge? His superior OCV will also reduce the effectiveness of Blocks, especially Blocks he can attack more than once due to his superior SPD.

 

6e has leveled the field somewhat over prior editions where DEX was king and skill levels vastly overpriced.

 

 

So we give Cyclops an 18-20 DEX because he's trained, then we top Captain America out at 20 DEX because he's a highly trained human? Doesn't sound much like the comparison of Cap and Cyclops I'd expect to see from the comics.

 

Hawkeye gets brushed off as "street level", but he started his career as a credible threat to Iron Man, then moved directly into the Avengers. Seems like he should be competitive with Iron Man and other Avengers - and he probably needs extra phases to dodge against that kind of offense, doesn't he? "Skilled/Trained Human" is a backstory just like "mutant", "exposed to weird forces", "powered armor" or any other comic book origin. There's no reason those characters need to be any less "super" - they aren't in the comics, so they should not be in a game simulating the comics.

There are other ways of making them competitive besides ridiculously pumped characteristics.

[massey]

There are other ways of making them competitive besides ridiculously pumped characteristics.

 

True.  There are lots of ways to build characters in this game system.  The same special effect can be handled in different ways, mechanically.  But is there a good reason to only do it one way?

[Hyper-Man]

Now I have to go find my copies of Spidey vs. Wolvey and Wolvey vs. Cap.

[megaplayboy]

If you benchmark stats to lower levels, then it has a tendency to "compress" the differentials between characters. Which, if you want to level the playing field and make more "human" characters remain competitive with higher powered supers, could be beneficial. On the other hand, you could wind up with Class 100 bricks who in the comic-book medium can smash the environment effortlessly and shrug off small arms fire suddenly struggling to match those feats.

[zslane]

He was never ever ever portrayed realistically.

Agreed. But portraying him "realistically" isn't necessarily the goal.

 

Batman is still a normal human being. He has no superpowers. He is, by HERO standards, a Talented Normal. Comic book writers will often push the limits of what that ought to mean to serve their plots, but for a game, more consistent formulae need to be adopted and agreed upon. The sort of outlandish fudging writers employ to keep Batman "competitive" with the likes of the rest of the Justice League becomes far more problematic in a game, unless the game itself recalibrates reality so that either (a) Talented Normals are equivalent to Superpowered characters, or ( Superpowered characters are watered-down so that they don't outclass Talented Normals too much. Neither of those compromises sound appealing to me.

[megaplayboy]

Is Doc Savage a normal human being? Batman is a direct descendant of the larger-than-life legendary heroes of the pulp era, who often were capable of more-than-human feats of strength, agility, deduction, willpower, etc. I guess, to me, the question is whether there is a meaningful distinction between "legendary human" stats and "superhuman" stats. The default Hero Games assumption is that there is. Captain America can bench press 1100 pounds(for reps, IIRC) without a weight shirt, straps, etc. He can't lift a metric ton over his head, though. But he's stronger than any powerlifter in the real world. Batman is perhaps slightly less strong but still exceeds real world benchmarks.

[massey]

If you benchmark stats to lower levels, then it has a tendency to "compress" the differentials between characters. Which, if you want to level the playing field and make more "human" characters remain competitive with higher powered supers, could be beneficial. On the other hand, you could wind up with Class 100 bricks who in the comic-book medium can smash the environment effortlessly and shrug off small arms fire suddenly struggling to match those feats.

 

That's the problem I have with it too.  

 

Agreed. But portraying him "realistically" isn't necessarily the goal.

 

Batman is still a normal human being. He has no superpowers. He is, by HERO standards, a Talented Normal. Comic book writers will often push the limits of what that ought to mean to serve their plots, but for a game, more consistent formulae need to be adopted and agreed upon. The sort of outlandish fudging writers employ to keep Batman "competitive" with the likes of the rest of the Justice League becomes far more problematic in a game, unless the game itself recalibrates reality so that either (a) Talented Normals are equivalent to Superpowered characters, or ( Superpowered characters are watered-down so that they don't outclass Talented Normals too much. Neither of those compromises sound appealing to me.

 

I don't think it necessarily does become a problem.  You're using the term "Talented Normal", and I'm drawing a blank if that means anything in HERO.  I remember "Skilled Normals" and "Competent Normals", but that's a point level for characters.  I think I'm missing something on what you mean by Talented Normal.

 

I think it's perfectly acceptable for Batman to be competitive in a super game.  He can have Powers (as a game mechanic), but not powers (as a special effect).  Batman could have, for instance, 50% Damage Reduction that Costs Endurance, with the description of "automatically rolling with the blow".  Batman is just so good that the bad guy just never gets a solid blow on him.  It's clearly commonplace in Champions publications for unpowered humans to have stats above 20.  Going back to 4th edition, if Seeker can have 25 Str, 26 Dex, and a 6 Spd, then as far as I'm concerned Batman can have it.

 

You said above that it wasn't appealing to you if "talented normals become equivalent to super-powered characters".  Maybe that's really the problem.  In comic books, unpowered heroes are just as effective as their powered brethren.  While Bruce may not throw as many D6 as Clark, he's just as big of a hero.  Depending on the version, they might even be roughly the same number of points.  I'll see if I can post some of my writeups when I get home.

[zslane]

I apologize for the confusion. I was referring to 4th ed. in which Talented Normal is a synonym for Competent Normal. But it turns out that isn't what I'm thinking of anyway. I'm thinking of the 4th ed. category called Hero. I guess. (And it's not about the point totals, but what you can build the character with.)

 

To my mind, Batman is a normal human being. He is, therefore, limited to Skills and Talents and low-grade Powers that mimic Talents that cost END or which help define his gadgets. Even if he is built on 400 points, he must still be subject to Normal Characteristic Maxima and must conform to the expectations of a human being born on this planet without the benefit of Super Science (ala Capt. America) or mutation. He is normal, even if extraordinary. He should therefore adhere to limits appropriate to a non-superpowered human being. The fact that comic book writers often ignored that to absurd extremes does not, IMO, provide us with Batman's defining characteristics, but rather provides us with the worst examples of comic book writing. Which is not something I think we ought to be striving to emulate in our RPG campaigns. Not if we want our games to make any sense whatsoever.

 

This is all commentary on the core question of "How does one make normal human heroes 'competitive' when fighting side by side with gods?" and the answer should be, "You don't. It is a retarded concept that never made any sense in the comics, so let's not pretend it will make any sense in an RPG."

[Chris Goodwin]

I apologize for the confusion. I was referring to 4th ed. in which Talented Normal is a synonym for Competent Normal. But it turns out that isn't what I'm thinking of anyway. I'm thinking of the 4th ed. category called Hero. I guess. (And it's not about the point totals, but what you can build the character with.)

 

To my mind, Batman is a normal human being. He is, therefore, limited to Skills and Talents and low-grade Powers that mimic Talents that cost END or which help define his gadgets. Even if he is built on 400 points, he must still be subject to Normal Characteristic Maxima and must conform to the expectations of a human being born on this planet without the benefit of Super Science (ala Capt. America) or mutation. He is normal, even if extraordinary. He should therefore adhere to limits appropriate to a non-superpowered human being. The fact that comic book writers often ignored that to absurd extremes does not, IMO, provide us with Batman's defining characteristics, but rather provides us with the worst examples of comic book writing. Which is not something I think we ought to be striving to emulate in our RPG campaigns. Not if we want our games to make any sense whatsoever.

 

This is all commentary on the core question of "How does one make normal human heroes 'competitive' when fighting side by side with gods?" and the answer should be, "You don't. It is a retarded concept that never made any sense in the comics, so let's not pretend it will make any sense in an RPG."

 

But he's in superheroic media.  He's a superhero in a superheroic game.  Further, in Champions, even normals are not subject to Normal Characteristic Maxima, not mechanically.  In a Fantasy Hero game I could have a human character with 23 STR, 21 DEX, and 5 SPD, if I was willing to pay the points.  Even when NCM is used, it's emphatically not a line Beyond Which Thou Shalt Not Cross Unless Thou Hast Powers.  

 

In superhero worlds, people routinely lift tons.  In this world, how did they know that "normal humans" could lift a maximum of 400 kg?  Maybe some genetic test was developed in the 1980's for the "super gene" or whatever, but for thousands of years before that, how did anyone know that a guy who could lift 5 tons was strange?  He was certainly notable, and stories were told about him forever, but did people think "He can lift 5 tons, he's not a normal human" or "He can lift 5 tons, I hope I can lift that much when I grow up!"?  

[massey]

Then I think we disagree philosophically about this topic. I tend to give normal humans *higher* stats than super powered folk, unless it's their specialty. Guys with powers tend to rely on their powers. They can "take it easy" because they've got a force field protecting them. The guy who is running around with nothing but spandex and a domino mask is gonna make sure he is really really good at dodging.

 

The Caped Crusader is going to have a higher Dex and Spd than anyone who isn't a speedster. He will have a higher Ego than anyone who isn't a mentalist, a higher Int than anyone who isn't a super scientist, etc. He's the jack-of-all-trades and he's master of the cheap shot. He will survive a super-fight by cranking his DCV up to 15 and chucking explosive batarangs and NND gas pellets from his utility belt.

 

That's the way I built him, anyway. And that's how I think he's been portrayed in the comics for the longest time.

[Old Man]

In the first issues, yes.  A lot of the early Marvel characters could be built on 250 fairly easily.  But that's 1963.  By the time you get to the late 60s and into the 70s, they were significantly more powerful.

 

Exactly.  Beast had a rad accident and became significantly tougher (and smarter).  Angel had his rad accident and became metal .  Jean went from low level telepath to omega-level mutant to Dark Phricking Phoenix.  But Cyke? 

[massey]

I'd say Cyke developed more incrementally. He bought up his Str, going from a scrawny teenager to a heroic physique. He probably bought up Dex and Con too, maybe a few levels of combat luck. He bought a few martial arts maneuvers, some mental defense, a bunch of skills. And then he just pumped points into Energy Blast.

 

By the way, I've written up most of the X-Men (at least the ones I liked) and poor Cyke is the cheapest of them. He does tend to lag behind the others, power-wise.

[NuSoardGraphite]

True. There are lots of ways to build characters in this game system. The same special effect can be handled in different ways, mechanically. But is there a good reason to only do it one way?

Nope. Just found a method that works for me is all. I found it solves some issues that comes along with pumped up characteristics. Others found that decoupling the secondaries from the primaries solved them. I like attached secondaries,, so I found another way to avoid the pitfalls.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Exactly. Beast had a rad accident and became significantly tougher (and smarter). Angel had his rad accident and became metal . Jean went from low level telepath to omega-level mutant to Dark Phricking Phoenix. But Cyke?

Cyclops probably has the most raw power out of al the xmen except maybe Storm and of course, Dark Phoenix Jean. But Cyke is a 1 trick pony. You can vary his trick quite a bit with some imagination, but ultimately theres only so much you can do with it. But he should easily be one of the most damaging xmen after factoring in MA and skill levels.

[Vondy]

A few thoughts.

 

Firstly, you don't have to destroy a tank to remove it from the fight. You can flip it on its side, blow its treads off, pull the turret off and use it on the undercarriage as a club, etc. You could also pick it up and shake it so that the crew turns to splat on the inside, or heat it up so that they sizzle, and leave the tank in tact. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Secondly, Hero vehicle design doesn't really account for weak-points or critical hits against vehicles very well. Its just not that granular. If you want those options, you have to create them. I also agree, overall, that official Hero builds are somewhat inflated due to its roots in - and focus on - the Champions superheroic genre.

[Old Man]

Cyclops probably has the most raw power out of al the xmen except maybe Storm and of course, Dark Phoenix Jean. But Cyke is a 1 trick pony. You can vary his trick quite a bit with some imagination, but ultimately theres only so much you can do with it. But he should easily be one of the most damaging xmen after factoring in MA and skill levels.

 

Admittedly he's a frightening artillery piece, but to me survivability is the real question with Cyke.  There's no real explanation for how he can survive a thug with a gun, let alone Sentinels and Magnetos.  He's not fast or metallic or tough or bamfy or capable of flight.  In the comics he gets plot armor; in Champions he'd last a couple of phases at most.

[assault]

In fact, he's less survivable that Batman/Daredevil/Hawkeye/Black Widow.

 

This, incidentally, points to the nonsensical nature of the "distinction" between Normal and Superhuman. Most "superhumans" aren't superhuman, except in specific areas.

[massey]

Admittedly he's a frightening artillery piece, but to me survivability is the real question with Cyke.  There's no real explanation for how he can survive a thug with a gun, let alone Sentinels and Magnetos.  He's not fast or metallic or tough or bamfy or capable of flight.  In the comics he gets plot armor; in Champions he'd last a couple of phases at most.

 

My current writeup of Cyke gives him 12/12 PD and ED, 2 levels of Combat Luck, and like a 25 Con.  With 6 rPD he can take some Body from a thug with a gun pretty easily.  I give him 20 Dex (on the low end for a blaster) and 5 Spd.  If someone directs an attack towards him, he uses Martial Dodge and goes to a 12 DCV.  He can't maintain that DCV and do anything though.  However his attack is quite a bit larger than the campaign average.  If the X-Men run around in a 12 or 13D6 campaign, Cyke has a 15D6 attack, with 5 more at Increased Endurance.

[megaplayboy]

He's supposed to be a genius at bouncing his blasts. I assume a bucketload of levels related to his main power.

[Hugh Neilson]

Agreed. But portraying him "realistically" isn't necessarily the goal.

 

Batman is still a normal human being. He has no superpowers. He is, by HERO standards, a Talented Normal.

He pals around with the JLA and Superman. He's a Super the same as they are. Players designing Superman, Green Lantern or Batman get the same campaign norm points. That's a big part of a game based on mechanics rather than SFX, IMNSHO.

 

Comic book writers will often push the limits of what that ought to mean to serve their plots, but for a game, more consistent formulae need to be adopted and agreed upon. The sort of outlandish fudging writers employ to keep Batman "competitive" with the likes of the rest of the Justice League becomes far more problematic in a game, unless the game itself recalibrates reality so that either (a) Talented Normals are equivalent to Superpowered characters, or ( Superpowered characters are watered-down so that they don't outclass Talented Normals too much. Neither of those compromises sound appealing to me.

I find a mechanism that departs from, rather than emulating, the source material far more unappealing. Bats is competitive with his JLA colleagues, so the game should facilitate, not frustrate, this. Part of the problem is interpreting "competitive" with "identical". His combat role need not be "match Superman in damage output". It's "be sneaky and have plenty of options to address situations where Superman Strength doesn't get the job done".

 

To my mind, Batman is a normal human being. He is, therefore, limited to Skills and Talents and low-grade Powers that mimic Talents that cost END or which help define his gadgets. Even if he is built on 400 points, he must still be subject to Normal Characteristic Maxima and must conform to the expectations of a human being born on this planet without the benefit of Super Science (ala Capt. America) or mutation.

Here we hit the problem - whose expectations? Mine match the comics and yours do not. I think a comic book character matching the comics is a very reasonable expectation.

 

This is all commentary on the core question of "How does one make normal human heroes 'competitive' when fighting side by side with gods?" and the answer should be, "You don't. It is a retarded concept that never made any sense in the comics, so let's not pretend it will make any sense in an RPG."

Plenty of good comments above. Classifying those who disagree with you as "retarded" is not, in my view, reasonable discourse appropriate to the forums. My answer in your games would be not to play a Bat Character, but to select a character archetype which is permitted to be competitive in your games. There are lots of great posts above from people I can play my Bat Character in, so why run him in a game biased against his concept?

[zslane]

Classifying those who disagree with you as "retarded" is not, in my view, reasonable discourse appropriate to the forums.

Thankfully, I didn't do that. I classified the notion that a highly trained normal should expect to run with godlike beings without game-debilitating hackery (equivalent to bad comic book writing) as retarded, not those people who disagree with me (on this, or any matter). I think you are stretching my criticism in directions designed to create personal offense where none is intended. Oy veh.

[Old Man]

My current writeup of Cyke gives him 12/12 PD and ED, 2 levels of Combat Luck, and like a 25 Con.  With 6 rPD he can take some Body from a thug with a gun pretty easily.  I give him 20 Dex (on the low end for a blaster) and 5 Spd.  If someone directs an attack towards him, he uses Martial Dodge and goes to a 12 DCV.  He can't maintain that DCV and do anything though.

 

I find much of that unjustifiable based on what we know about Cyclops' power set, but I handwave it away as "mutants are tough".  And even then, in-game, a single hit from an average attack will drop him.

 

I do like the current Racer X uniform he has, though.  It looks awesome.