Help me understand MA with weapons.

[mdybro]

Hi.

 

5'ed..

 

I'm really confused about the rules regarding using MA with a weapon.

 

Let say I make a hero that uses MA with a longsword.

 

The rules state that I add the weapon damage to the manuever INSTEAD of STR.

 

So using a longsword with a strike (STR+2d6), I would do 1d6+1 (longsword) + 2d6 (making that to 1 DC according to rules about damage), so that would be 1½d6 Killing damage.

 

But what about the bonus I get for a high str? I get one DC for a STR of 17 (5 over the min STR of a Longsword that is 12), Do I ignore that? or add that too?

 

Thanks.

 

Tiq

 

 

[Hyper-Man]

It looks like you're getting the hang of it.

 

In a non-supers or Heroic setting weapons don't cost points (just money) so how much damage a character does with them is based on their Skill and Strength.  Every 5 points above the weapon's STR minimum will add +1DC.  Martial Maneuvers can add additional DC's above this. 

 

Please see this 5e Dark Champions example character who uses a 'mundane' weapon for an example (see the equipment section).

[massey]

Basically, you add Weapon damage + STR + Maneuver bonus

 

So let's say you've got a superheroic game, and you're using a Cosmic Club (6D6 Hand Attack) and you have a 45 STR (9D6) and you use a Martial Strike (+0 OCV, +2 DCV, +2D6).  You would hit for 6+9+2 = 17D6 damage.

 

Now, in a heroic game, that Cosmic Club likely has a Str minimum.  And you likely don't have 45 Str, but whatever.  So let's say in a heroic game, you've got a 15 Str, you're using a baseball bat (4D6, and we'll say it has a Str min of 10 just to make things easy), and you use a Martial Strike.  So you take your base weapon damage of 4D6, and you add 1D6 for Str (because it takes 10 of your 15 to properly use the bat), and then you add 2D6 for the maneuver.  That's a total of 7D6.

 

Killing attacks work the same way, except maneuver bonuses only add 1DC for every 2.  So that Martial Strike will only take an attack from, say, 2D6 to 2D6+1.

 

The other difference is that you can only double the base damage on killing attacks (and on normal attacks in heroic games).  So that 1 1/2D6 HKA sword (5DCs) can only ever go up to a 3D6+1 HKA, no matter how strong you are or what maneuvers you use.

[mdybro]

Thanks for clearing it up for me. I'll have a look at the read tiger.

 

It will be a Heroic game (Fantasy), so I guess my thoughts are correct . I do add the "more than min STR" damage to my MA manuvers. I did catch the double max damage of the weapon, it was just the combination with a normal weapon and a MA manuver that confused me.

[NuSoardGraphite]

In 5th and pre ious editions, yes weapons, especially in Heroic games, adhered to a damage maximum which is x2 their base Damage Class. For example, the base DC of a long sword is 4 (1d6+1 killing). With a STR min of 12.

 

A character with a STR 15 and Martial Strike (+2d6 or +2DC) will do +1 DC from STR (3 points over is enough to gain the bonus) and +2 DC from the Martial Strike adds +1DC to the attack for a total of 6DC or 2d6k damage. The maximum the longsword could be pushed to is 8DC or 2 1/2d6k. (Which is pretty good when average resistant defenses are in the 4-6 range)

[Mister E]

will do +1 DC from STR (3 points over is enough to gain the bonus)

 

I thought it had to be 5 full pts.

[Spence]

I thought it had to be 5 full pts.

 

rounding is always to the favor of the PC. 

[Mister E]

rounding is always to the favor of the PC.

Two-handing a long sword reduces the STR min from 12 to 9.

 

So two-handing a long sword w/ a STR of 17 (8 over 9) would add 2 DCs (8 is enough)?

[Spence]

Two-handing a long sword reduces the STR min from 12 to 9.

 

So two-handing a long sword w/ a STR of 17 (8 over 9) would add 2 DCs (8 is enough).

 

I was referring to his thought that it had to be 5 full point versus the 3 pts to gain the +1.   

[Hyper-Man]

From 5er page 406:

No “Half Damage Classes”
For purposes of the rules about adding damage, there’s no such thing as a “half Damage Class.” Characters can only add damage in whole DCs. For example, a character cannot use one Combat Skill Level to add “half a Damage Class,” because there’s no such thing as a half Damage Class. Similarly, when a character calculates the damage bonus from velocity, or the effect of using STR to add damage by exceeding a weapon’s STR Minimum, the normal HERO System rounding rules do not apply. A character has to have a full 3”/5” of movement (depending on the Maneuver used), or full 5 extra points of STR, to get +1 DC — anything less than that has no effect.

 

From 6e2 page 100:

STRENGTH
Strength (STR) adds to the damage done by HKAs: +1 DC for every 5 STR used with it (or to put it another way, +1d6 HKA for every 15 STR used).

In Heroic campaigns, a character using a weapon doesn’t add his STR to a weapon’s HKA damage automatically — it only adds damage if it exceeds the weapon’s STR Minimum (6E2 199). For every full 5 points of STR a character has above the weapon’s STR Minimum, he may add +1 DC of Killing Damage (or, for weapons like staffs that do Normal Damage, +1d6 of Normal Damage).

[Spence]

From 5er page 406:

 

From 6e2 page 100:

 

And that answers that....  

[Hugh Neilson]

In 5th and pre ious editions, yes weapons, especially in Heroic games, adhered to a damage maximum which is x2 their base Damage Class. For example, the base DC of a long sword is 4 (1d6+1 killing). With a STR min of 12.

So far, so good

 

A character with a STR 15 and Martial Strike (+2d6 or +2DC) will do +1 DC from STR (3 points over is enough to gain the bonus)

No, he needs the full 5 points of STR, so no bonus (unless he goes two handed as noted above - I'll assume 1 handed)

 

+2 DC from the Martial Strike adds +1DC to the attack

Pre-6e (and we're talking 5e here), MA DC's are halved when adding to killing attacks, so that's right.

 

for a total of 6DC or 2d6k damage.

5DC/ 1 1/2d6 as no STR adder. +3 STR has never added +1d6 of normal damage either, with or without a weapon, so I'm not sure where "3 STR is enough" comes from.

 

The maximum the longsword could be pushed to is 8DC or 2 1/2d6k. (Which is pretty good when average resistant defenses are in the 4-6 range)

The cap out was overruled with Deadly Blow type constructs (quite controversial).

 

In 6e, my recollection is that the chain of thought went, first, that damage adding is overly complex. Halving of DC's for Martial Arts adding to Killing Attacks went away as an outgrowth of that. So did the "can't more than double" rule.

 

With the doubling rule gone, discussions of Deadly Blow turned to "just use skill levels because they are no longer restricted to doubling damage". Mae sense - stick to a single mechanic for adding damage due to skill with the weapon.

 

Then that sidebar suggesting reinstatement of the doubling rule snuck in, invalidating the logic of deadly blow being mechanic'ed as skill levels so now we are left with a "base rules, no doubling; optional rule, doubling; maybe some things are subject to doubling and others are not" model, which seems to indicate the initial objective - simplify the adding damage rules - was not achieved.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Rule ignored.

[Hyper-Man]

Rule ignored.

 

Which is great for the house rules of YOUR game* but not so good when answering a question from someone new to the rules and this forum.

 

*Which I am sure are quite well thought out based on your descriptions of them on other threads.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Which is great for the house rules of YOUR game* but not so good when answering a question from someone new to the rules and this forum.

 

*Which I am sure are quite well thought out based on your descriptions of them on other threads.

Of course I thought rounding was fine for STR damage and velocity damage (obviously not for MA maneuver bonuses or skill levels because those are on a 2 point scale vs a 5 point scale) and it turns out that adding damage requiring full points to add is an exception to the standard rounding rules, so its an easy mistake to make.

 

I have decided to ignore that rule for my own games because weapon STR minimums are already fairly high in the game and the standard damage adding rule will encourage players to boost character STR scores beyond what they should be. I can imagine Rogues with STR17 just to get that +1DC with their longsword. That will throw the dynamic of my heroic games off kilter, so rounding stays

[Hugh Neilson]

Of course I thought rounding was fine for STR damage and velocity damage (obviously not for MA maneuver bonuses or skill levels because those are on a 2 point scale vs a 5 point scale) and it turns out that adding damage requiring full points to add is an exception to the standard rounding rules, so its an easy mistake to make.

 

I have decided to ignore that rule for my own games because weapon STR minimums are already fairly high in the game and the standard damage adding rule will encourage players to boost character STR scores beyomd what they should be. I can imagine Rouges with STR17 just to get that +1DC with their longsword. That will throw the dynamic of my heroic games off kilter, so rounding stays

[pedant]What STR scores do you envision for blushes, mascaras and eye liners?[/pedant]

 

To me, a 2 STR difference is not going to throw my games off, but I'd expect to see a lot more "not burly fighter dudes" taking a STR of 12 or 13 (1 more point for rounding issues) and buy any added damage to that Longsword with a skill level mechanic, rather than brute force. Although I'd view a classic "backstab/sneak attack" being better simulated with called shots and PSL's against Hit Locations anyway. I always liked the (4e, IIRC) High Shot with a -4 Called Shot penalty to roll 1d6+2 (or was it +3? 1/3 head shot or 1/2 head shot) for the hit location.

[NuSoardGraphite]

[pedant]What STR scores do you envision for blushes, mascaras and eye liners?[/pedant]

 

To me, a 2 STR difference is not going to throw my games off, but I'd expect to see a lot more "not burly fighter dudes" taking a STR of 12 or 13 (1 more point for rounding issues) and buy any added damage to that Longsword with a skill level mechanic, rather than brute force. Although I'd view a classic "backstab/sneak attack" being better simulated with called shots and PSL's against Hit Locations anyway. I always liked the (4e, IIRC) High Shot with a -4 Called Shot penalty to roll 1d6+2 (or was it +3? 1/3 head shot or 1/2 head shot) for the hit location.

I hate my smartphone.

[Mister E]

Melee weapons in order of how much STR is needed to do 6 DCs:

 

One-handed is the first number.

Two-handed is in (parentheses).

 

1h (2h) weapon at 6 DC

---- ------ --------------

15 (13) battle axe

16 (13) pick [1d6+1 AP]

 

17 (14) polearm

17 (14) spear

 

20 (17) great sword

20 (17) club

20 (17) mace

 

20 (18) of dubious origin sword

21 (18) hand axe

22 (19) long sword

 

23 (20) quarterstaff

23 (20) police baton

23 (20) hammer [1 1/2d6, +1 STUNx]

 

24 (sm 21) IDD dagger [breaks*]

 

25 (22) short sword

 

 

*Real Weapon "If added damage more than doubles its base DC it also takes the full damage it does to the target (likely breaking it)."

[Mister E]

Increased Damage Differentiation (APG 56) sets the cost of 1d6-1 killing damage at 12 (rather than 10).

 

w/ IDD the 1d6-1 (2.4 DC) dagger only needs 3 STR over the 6 one-handed (3 two-handed) STR min in order to get to 3 DC (1d6 killing damage).

 

STR min break-points for IDD dagger:

 

1h (2h)

---- -------

6 (3**) dagger 1d6-1 (2.4 DC)

9 (6**) dagger 1d6

 

14 (11**) dagger 1d6+1

 

19 (16**) dagger 1 1/2d6 (5 DC) [breaks]

21 (18**) dagger 2d6-1 (5.4 DC) [breaks]

24 (21**) dagger 2d6 (6 DC) [breaks]

 

 

** only small hands can two-hand a dagger most cases.

[Thia Halmades]

This of course doesn't take into account that those are stock builds, and you can design it to do whatever you want.

 

I'm going to build a long sword that does 99d6 RKA to all of the things! FOREVER!

 

My STR is 5, and the min to wield the weapon is 100. How much damage do I deal on a critical hit?

[NuSoardGraphite]

92 1/2D6K

[Mister E]

Cook Ting was cutting up an ox for Lord Wen-hui. As every touch of his hand, every heave of his shoulder, every move of his feet, every thrust of his knee — zip! zoop! He slithered the knife along with a zing, and all was in perfect rhythm, as though he were performing the dance of the Mulberry Grove or keeping time to the Ching-shou music.

 

“Ah, this is marvelous!” said Lord Wen-hui. “Imagine skill reaching such heights!”

 

Cook Ting laid down his knife and replied, “What I care about is the Way, which goes beyond skill. When I first began cutting up oxen, all I could see was the ox itself. After three years I no longer saw the whole ox. And now — now I go at it by spirit and don’t look with my eyes. Perception and understanding have come to a stop and spirit moves where it wants. I go along with the natural makeup, strike in the big hollows, guide the knife through the big openings, and following things as they are. So I never touch the smallest ligament or tendon, much less a main joint.

 

“A good cook changes his knife once a year — because he cuts. A mediocre cook changes his knife once a month — because he hacks. I’ve had this knife of mine for nineteen years and I’ve cut up thousands of oxen with it, and yet the blade is as good as though it had just come from the grindstone. There are spaces between the joints, and the blade of the knife has really no thickness. If you insert what has no thickness into such spaces, then there’s plenty of room — more than enough for the blade to play about it. That’s why after nineteen years the blade of my knife is still as good as when it first came from the grindstone.

 

“However, whenever I come to a complicated place, I size up the difficulties, tell myself to watch out and be careful, keep my eyes on what I’m doing, work very slowly, and move the knife with the greatest subtlety, until — flop! the whole thing comes apart like a clod of earth crumbling to the ground. I stand there holding the knife and look all around me, completely satisfied and reluctant to move on, and then I wipe off the knife and put it away.”

 

“Excellent!” said Lord Wen-hui. “I have heard the words of Cook Ting and learned how to care for life!”

 

Translated by Burton Watson

 

(Chuang Tzu: The Basic Writings, 1964)

[NuSoardGraphite]

True.

 

a) Heroic weapons are campaign specific & provided by the GM.

 

Superheroic weapons are just SFX for bought Powers.

 

 

99d6 RKA times 3 DC per 1d6 RKA is 297 DC.

 

There is a -1 OCV & -1 DC penalty for every 5 pts (or fraction there off) that the wielder's STR is below the weapon's STR min.

 

5 STR w/ a 100 STR min is a -95 OCV & -95 DC penalty.

 

297 DC minus the 95 DC penalty equals 202 DC.

 

202 DC divided by 3 DC per 1d6 RKA is 67d6+1 RKA.

 

Assuming the roll to hit a living target was less than half the number needed (even w/ a -95 OCV penalty!) a critical w/ 67d6+1 RKA does the max (67x6)+1 or 403 BODY before hit locations & defenses.

 

& that's not terrible!

Nope nope.

 

You forgot to divide.

 

it's OCV -1 and DC -1 per 5pts less.

 

95 less the STR min = a -19 OCV and -19 DC

 

Thats 278 DC. or 92 1/2D6k

[Mister E]

Nope nope.

 

You forgot to divide.

 

it's OCV -1 and DC -1 per 5pts less.

 

95 less the STR min = a -19 OCV and -19 DC

 

Thats 278 DC. or 92 1/2D6k

Thanks!

[Lucius]

Cook Ting was cutting up an ox for Lord Wen-hui. As every touch of his hand, every heave of his shoulder, every move of his feet, every thrust of his knee — zip! zoop! He slithered the knife along with a zing, and all was in perfect rhythm, as though he were performing the dance of the Mulberry Grove or keeping time to the Ching-shou music.

 

“Ah, this is marvelous!” said Lord Wen-hui. “Imagine skill reaching such heights!”

 

Cook Ting laid down his knife and replied, “What I care about is the Way, which goes beyond skill. When I first began cutting up oxen, all I could see was the ox itself. After three years I no longer saw the whole ox. And now — now I go at it by spirit and don’t look with my eyes. Perception and understanding have come to a stop and spirit moves where it wants. I go along with the natural makeup, strike in the big hollows, guide the knife through the big openings, and following things as they are. So I never touch the smallest ligament or tendon, much less a main joint.

 

“A good cook changes his knife once a year — because he cuts. A mediocre cook changes his knife once a month — because he hacks. I’ve had this knife of mine for nineteen years and I’ve cut up thousands of oxen with it, and yet the blade is as good as though it had just come from the grindstone. There are spaces between the joints, and the blade of the knife has really no thickness. If you insert what has no thickness into such spaces, then there’s plenty of room — more than enough for the blade to play about it. That’s why after nineteen years the blade of my knife is still as good as when it first came from the grindstone.

 

“However, whenever I come to a complicated place, I size up the difficulties, tell myself to watch out and be careful, keep my eyes on what I’m doing, work very slowly, and move the knife with the greatest subtlety, until — flop! the whole thing comes apart like a clod of earth crumbling to the ground. I stand there holding the knife and look all around me, completely satisfied and reluctant to move on, and then I wipe off the knife and put it away.”

 

“Excellent!” said Lord Wen-hui. “I have heard the words of Cook Ting and learned how to care for life!”

 

Translated by Burton Watson

 

(Chuang Tzu: The Basic Writings, 1964)

The Way of Cook Ting: (Total: 160 Active Cost, 43 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6-1 (standard effect: 1 BODY, 0 STUN) (Reduced Negation (5)), Reduced Endurance (wu-wei, "Work without effort") (0 END; +1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (1m Radius; +1/2), Does BODY (+1), Penetrating (x3; +1 1/2), Damage Over Time, Target's defenses only apply once (7-8 damage increments, damage occurs every Turn, +3 1/2) (160 Active Points); OIF (Any Blade; -1/2), Inaccurate (0 OCV; -1/2), No STR Bonus (-1/2), -2 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; Character is totally unaware of nearby events; -1/2), No Knockback (-1/4) (Real Cost: 43)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Just keep that cook away from my palindromedary