"I can smell intrigue..."

[Surrealone]

I'm in need of assistance building something in 5e...

 

Concept:

"I can smell intrigue..."  Not literally, but figuratively ... as in the character is adept at determining when there's a plot afoot against him -- and somehow thinking 12 moves ahead on the chess board to determine where it's coming from and what's likely to happen next.

 

Qualifying comments:

• It's not a combat ability and should have no combat function.
• It should be passive, not active -- meaning it should take no extra time and require no declared activity.
• The character doesn't need to be anywhere near the source of the plot to sense it.
• The intuitive leaps should only be possible when receiving new information/input that plays into the intrigue/plot being sensed.  Examples that would trigger the ability include but are not limited to: reading a message scribbled on a forgotten note, overhearing a conversation, lip reading, watching a video of some relevant action, learning something in a conversation, etc.
• An INT (or PER) roll probably makes sense.
• A failed roll should mean nothing happens, but a successful roll should trigger insight a lot like making a deduction roll or sensing something when both the discriminatory and analyze modifiers are in place.

 

Thoughts so far:

1. Deduction with a limitation (intrigue-only?  seems hinky to me, but if viable, at what value?)
2. Danger sense with some limitations (non-combat only, requires input, etc?  at what values?)
3. A custom-built unusual sense with some limitations (non-combat only, requires input, etc?  at what values?)
4. Something else?

[massey]

Sounds exactly like Danger Sense, with a few Adders like Discriminatory.

[Surrealone]

Sounds exactly like Danger Sense, with a few Adders like Discriminatory.

Except danger sense in 5e doesn't have a discriminatory or analyze adder ... and conceptually this doesn't have any function in combat or work for anything other than intrigue/plots against the character (regardless of the impact/area affected -- which is hyper relevant for danger sense but completely irrelevant for this concept).  On top of that, there's a need to take in information about that plot that isn't immediately apparent it has anything to do with the plot (i.e. hear a cover story and call BS on it, etc. due to the power.)

 

I've toyed with Danger Sense for this but have not been able to come up with a sane write-up.  Since it sounds exactly like danger sense to you, what would your 5e write-up/build look like?  This is where I need the help -- not in which power to pick but what the various write-ups would look like.

[massey]

The value for any kind of limitation like that is going to probably be campaign dependent.  It also depends on how you write it up exactly.

 

"Danger Sense" is really just "Detect: Danger" with the appropriate adders.  Look at 5th edition revised, page 89.  It's Detect Danger (5 pts) + Ranged (5 pts) + Targeting, only if makes half-roll (5 pts).  It also specifically says that you can add Discriminatory and Analyze to it.  All you need to do is change it from Detect Danger to "Detect: Intrigue/Plot/Story Element" and you're golden.

 

Remember, it is just an enhanced sense, nothing more.

[Surrealone]

Good point.  My old school (3rd ed. and earlier) brain thinks of Danger Sense as an orphaned talent not as pre-built unusual sense.  Thanks for that reminder.  I'll give it a go when I next get some free time with the book in front of me.

[Mister E]

... and somehow thinking 12 moves ahead on the chess board to determine where it's coming from and what's likely to happen next.

Tactics allows the GM to divulge potential enemy activity & suggest viable countermeasures.

 

An Extraordinary (-10 or more penalty) Tactics Roll ought to work in non-combat scenarios.

[Ninja-Bear]

I would think clairvoyance with maybe precognition and no control modifier would be a good place to start.

 

No concious control that is.

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

This to me feels a lot like Tactics, like Mister E said, and Deduction together.

 

 

If both rolls make it then he knows everything about it and how to stop it.

If Only The Tactics Roll Makes It, He Knows How To Stop It but not the details.

If Only The Deduction Roll Makes It, He Knows The Details About The Plot but not how to stop it (Though an INT Roll Would Probably Figure That Part Out).

If Both Rolls Fail, He Receives No Benefit.

 

 

 

As Words Die, The Plot Unfolds in Front of My Face

[Christopher]

Qualifying comments:

• It's not a combat ability and should have no combat function.
• It should be passive, not active -- meaning it should take no extra time and require no declared activity.
• The character doesn't need to be anywhere near the source of the plot to sense it.
• The intuitive leaps should only be possible when receiving new information/input that plays into the intrigue/plot being sensed.  Examples that would trigger the ability include but are not limited to: reading a message scribbled on a forgotten note, overhearing a conversation, lip reading, watching a video of some relevant action, learning something in a conversation, etc.
• An INT (or PER) roll probably makes sense.
• A failed roll should mean nothing happens, but a successful roll should trigger insight a lot like making a deduction roll or sensing something when both the discriminatory and analyze modifiers are in place.

Senses make the most sense (no pun intended):

- They have no combat utility unless targetting and/or geared towards detecting physical objects and movement at range (sight, hearing)

- that it works without declaring with just be the "sense" adder, wich removes any need to declare to use it (like you don't have to declare you use your nose to smell). Of course you can still take extra time to sense something, to get a bonus on the roll (as usual for active listening/looking/smelling).

- (proximity) combing both the following points, the character has to be close to a part of the intrigue.

- sense already use INT/PER rolls

- the result of a roll also points towards senses

 

Danger Sesne is the best basis, but the cost may vary heavily based on the campaign. Anywhere from 3 point detect to 10 point detect (a courtly game with intrigues left and right).

 

3 point detects do tend to overlap with skills a lot.

If I just see the loading screen of a Windows, I can already tell you wich Windows it is. And in rare cases even wich service pack is installed (Windows XP switched from a green to a blue animated bar with SP 1, so a green bar means no service pack; or maybe something realy rare like the x64 or Media Center editions of XP). This is not a sense, but rather something I just get from my skills at Comptuer Admistration/Repair.

 

Of course the GM might not be as aware that a automatic skill roll would be mandated in a specific case. Senses can make certain the GM does not forget any unnatural sense for Intrigues.

[Lucius]

I can Smell Intrigue: (Total: 20 Active Cost, 9 Real Cost) Detect: Clue to a Conspiracy A Class Of Things (anything connected to a sinister plot against the character) +2 PER roll (Sight Group), Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees), Sense Affected As Another Sense (The clue could be something seen, heard, or even otherwise sensed; +0) (12 Active Points); Limited Power Only for Trigger (-1), Nonpersistent (-1/4) (Real Cost: 5) <b>plus</b> Eidetic Memory, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Half Phase Action to reset, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; +1/4) (6 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; -1) (Real Cost: 3) <b>plus</b> +1 with Deduction, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Half Phase Action to reset, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; +1/4) (2 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; -1) (Real Cost: 1)

 

This build assumes the character already has Deduction.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

This tagline assumes

[Lucius]

I can Smell Intrigue: (Total: 20 Active Cost, 9 Real Cost) Detect: Clue to a Conspiracy A Class Of Things (anything connected to a sinister plot against the character) +2 PER roll (Sight Group), Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees), Sense Affected As Another Sense (The clue could be something seen, heard, or even otherwise sensed; +0) (12 Active Points); Limited Power Only for Trigger (-1), Nonpersistent (-1/4) (Real Cost: 5) <b>plus</b> Eidetic Memory, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Half Phase Action to reset, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; +1/4) (6 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; -1) (Real Cost: 3) <b>plus</b> +1 with Deduction, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Half Phase Action to reset, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; +1/4) (2 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; -1) (Real Cost: 1)

 

This build assumes the character already has Deduction.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

This tagline assumes

[Surrealone]

I can Smell Intrigue: (Total: 20 Active Cost, 9 Real Cost) Detect: Clue to a Conspiracy A Class Of Things (anything connected to a sinister plot against the character) +2 PER roll (Sight Group), Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees), Sense Affected As Another Sense (The clue could be something seen, heard, or even otherwise sensed; +0) (12 Active Points); Limited Power Only for Trigger (-1), Nonpersistent (-1/4) (Real Cost: 5) <b>plus</b> Eidetic Memory, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Half Phase Action to reset, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; +1/4) (6 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; -1) (Real Cost: 3) <b>plus</b> +1 with Deduction, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Half Phase Action to reset, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; +1/4) (2 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; -1) (Real Cost: 1)

 

This build assumes the character already has Deduction.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

This tagline assumes

 

Interestingly, the character has both Deduction and and Eidetic Memory -- meaning the Detect is probably all that's required.  I notice it's not bought as a sense, though ... or with range (hearing?)  I presume this is because of the 'sense affected as another sense' limitation you took?

[Christopher]

Interestingly, the character has both Deduction and and Eidetic Memory -- meaning the Detect is probably all that's required.  I notice it's not bought as a sense, though ... or with range (hearing?)  I presume this is because of the 'sense affected as another sense' limitation you took?

It was put into a existing sesne group (Sight). It inherits some Sense Modifiers from that sense group (like Sense) but also suffers from flashes of that sense.

Not sure I agree with lucius on that pricing for "affected as other sens group". It would be a limitation if the sense could also be flashed via another sense group (either of the senses disabeled - sense not working).

It would be a big advantage if the enemy would have to flash all the senses to be sure you can't use it (a sense not tied to a existing Sense Group like Danger Sense; Hardest to use sense affecting powers against, but no inherited Sense Modifiers).

[Surrealone]

Not sure I agree with lucius on that pricing for "affected as other sens group". It would be a limitation if the sense could also be flashed via another sense group (either of the senses disabeled - sense not working).

It would be a big advantage if the enemy would have to flash all the senses to be sure you can't use it (a sense not tied to a existing Sense Group like Danger Sense; Hardest to use sense affecting powers against, but no inherited Sense Modifiers).

 

I think the pricing makes sense given that his description indicated it's not just sight, but also hearing, touch, etc.  (a la: 'The clue could be something seen, heard, or even otherwise sensed').  This means he also gave the sense range (probably inherited from hearing).

 

As for flash, I think the ruling on the field would have to be something akin to: if the sense that would have been used to perceive the clue is flashed, then the sense doesn't work.  i.e. If my hero, ConspiracyAttractor, was (hearing) flashed by a sonic grenade while within hearing distance of ThePoisoner instructing his minions to poison the water supply near my base ... my detect/sense wouldn't function.  Now if I made a successful Lipreading roll and my sight group was not flashed, then I would have another option to perceive the very same clue ... and trigger the sense.  Similarly, if one of my compatriots was NOT flashed, overheard it, and then later communicated it to me -- I could learn the same information from the same event. 

 

With that in mind, I think it's very appropriate to provide no limitation for Sense Affected as Another Sense(s) ... and a 0 modifier does jive with 5e RAW.

 

[Lucius]

On the whole I think it's still coming out overpriced, but that may depend on how much you have to worry about conspiracy in your game.

 

The idea is that if the character has already seen/heard/become aware of something connected to the plot (saw two people in conversation for example) and later perceives something else connected (perhaps one of those two conversing with someone else) there's a perception roll at +2 to Trigger the memory of the earlier clue. "Hm, Count Mahout is making a habit of whispered conversations in quiet corners, wonder what he's up to." Then the character has a +1 to an immediate Deduction roll to figure something out about the plot, perhaps where to look for another clue. "Earl Heeburd had some kind of quarrel with Mahout last week, maybe he knows what's going on and would be willing to tell."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I can smell a palindromedary

[Surrealone]

I think it's pricey for what it is, but I also don't need the +2 or +1 and can probably shave costs there. I believe that doing so would look like this (please double-check me, especially the Deduction trigger, which seems strange):

 

Sense Intrigue (Active: 10,  Real: 4)
(Sight Group) Detect Class Of Things: Clue to a Conspiracy (Anything connected to a plot against character), Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees), Sense Affected As More Than One Sense (Clue can be something seen, heard, or otherwise sensed; +0); Limited Power (Only to trigger Deduction; Power loses about half of its effectiveness; -1), Nonpersistent (-1/4)

[Lucius]

"Only to Trigger" implies that you have something with the Trigger Advantage on it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary buys a Trigger Advantage for a singing cowboy

[Surrealone]

Got it -- so a compound power is essential.  Now that I follow it fully, I'll mark this solved with your original build-out.  Much thanks for the help/lesson.

 

Surreal

 

P.S. Intrigue is pretty common for this character and, as a result, in this game.  5 points of 'Member of upper nobility: Duke' tends to come with some annoyances, and intrigue (as others jockey for position/status/standing/wealth) is among them.  When a high-INT character comes across enough of it, he tends to 'learn the game' well enough to anticipate it ... by seeing through plots that are not very carefully veiled.  My GM tends not to use Deduction/Tactics often enough to properly represent the character's ability to notice things that I, the player, might not pick up ... so I need to drive the issue ... as I'm tired of racking my brain on things my character should readily spot.

[Lucius]

In answer to an unrelated question, Steve Long has just approved "Detect Treachery."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I can smell palindromedaries

[Surrealone]

I'm not sure 'approved' is 100% accurate, but thanks for causing me to search for and find this thread: http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/92702-detect/?hl=treachery

 

[Lucius]

Interestingly, the character has both Deduction and and Eidetic Memory -- meaning the Detect is probably all that's required.  I notice it's not bought as a sense, though ... or with range (hearing?)  I presume this is because of the 'sense affected as another sense' limitation you took?

No, it's assumed to be in the Sight Sense Group and "inherits" the Range and Sense modifiers from that. But sight is not by default 360 degrees so that had to be bought.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Detect Palindromedary