Making HERO have AC!!!

[Lucius]

 

Psychological Complication: perceived as being difficult math (Common, Severely)

 

Isn't that a SOCIAL Complication, i.e. a bad Reputation?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders if it's getting a reputation from hanging around Lucius Alexander

[Christopher R Taylor]

Negative Reputation, maybe yeah.  That doesn't have to be accurate, just what people have heard, common knowledge like "all Belgians are worse at chess than the Burmese"

[Ninja-Bear]

How experienced is your GM at running Hero?

 

If they are wanting to change things just to be closer to D&D, you might as well just play D&D.

 

 

I tired of this rote statement. Why because you want an element of one game to be represented in Hero means you should scrap Hero for that other game?

[NuSoardGraphite]

I tired of this rote statement. Why because you want an element of one game to be represented in Hero means you should scrap Hero for that other game?

Armor Class is such a fundamental change to Hero, that it changes the entire flow of the combat. Changing defense from resisting damage to reducing chance to hit requires adjustment to almost the entire to-hit and damage dynamic.

 

We pick certain games because their mechanics can represent how we think the physics of our game world should be. Minor tweaks, changes and house rules are expected, but I question the necessity of such a huge change. Is it because one prefers the skill resolution in Hero? The point buy system? There may be other ways of getting what one wants without distorting the system so much.

 

However, on the other hand, some gms do enjoy the challenge of hybridizing systems and making them work. And thats totally cool. I just think the concept of AC is so fundmentally different from the basic philosophy of Hero combat that it would be a tough fix.

[Alcamtar]

Armor Class is such a fundamental change to Hero, that it changes the entire flow of the combat. Changing defense from resisting damage to reducing chance to hit requires adjustment to almost the entire to-hit and damage dynamic.

 

Conversely I would argue Hero already has AC, only it is called DCV. The only change necessary is to rewrite armor to provide a DCV bonus instead of PD. Of course the range of AC will have to be different since DCV is nonlinear.... but nothing changes in the game.

[eepjr24]

Conversely I would argue Hero already has AC, only it is called DCV. The only change necessary is to rewrite armor to provide a DCV bonus instead of PD. Of course the range of AC will have to be different since DCV is nonlinear.... but nothing changes in the game.

/agree

 

And you are doing nothing more than is recommended on 6e2, pg 47 and removing characteristics that you don't want to use in the case of PD and ED. And then set the campaign limit on DN, DR, Resistant Defenses, etc appropriately (perhaps to 0, perhaps only for certain effects).

 

- E

[Richgee]

The concept of AC doesn't sit well in the hero system, since regardless of what the dnd rules say in reality it is quite simply how good your armour is. The effect of armour drops off quite quickly in dnd and hit points becomes the real currency of combat. The joy of hero is that armour stops your characters dying but let's them fall unconscious from stun damage. If you are looking to simplify and make combat more deadly I would consider ditching pd/ed and only counting rpd/red convert all damage to killing dc. You will need to remove all restrictions on purchases of body even reducing the cost and force an allocation of character points based on class for every "level" the character attains. Take a mid level 10 fighter with 65hp it takes approx 12 successful hits with a 2 handed sword no strength bonus to kill him. In the hero system not many non superheroes will walk away from 4 such hits even with good armour. In hero terms your lv 10 fighter needs a body of around 40 even with 75 percent coverage of def 5 armour to come close to sustaining that volume of damage. In the hero system avoiding damage is way more important than it is in dnd, so you may need to consider that body and stun are not comparable to hp when calculating your hit chances.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Conversely I would argue Hero already has AC, only it is called DCV. The only change necessary is to rewrite armor to provide a DCV bonus instead of PD. Of course the range of AC will have to be different since DCV is nonlinear.... but nothing changes in the game.

Yes. It would be a case of replacing DCV with DEF in the to-hit calculation. Then since we are dropping defense as damage resistance, we have to rebalance the Damage and Body ratios to reflect this change. This is not a difficult thing to do, but all of the published Hero literature takes great pains to balance that damage mechanics based on defense as damage resistance, and thus would have to be rebalanced as well.

[DHKnechtLLC]

As others have pointed out, In D&D Platemail makes you harder to hit instead of reducing damage. In my mind it makes no sense.

But to each his own.

 

I would look at it this way:  Plate Mail (or Armor Class altogether) makes it harder for someone to inflict damage on you, not simply just "harder to hit."  Sure, we all use the terms "to hit" and "damage" to represent the rolls, but that's not what it truly means.  Also, D&D involves hit points (tons of them at higher levels).  These hit points aren't necessarily actual damage to the body, but represent the draw on the physical abilities of the combatant, including actual damage.

 

Therefore, if you look at it the right way, a higher Armor Class given by Plate Mail means the "to hit" roll happens less, resulting in less "hit points" of damage over time.  In that way, all other things being equal (Dex, etc.), a person with heavier armor will take longer to take down than that same person wearing no armor.

 

Now, that being said, D&D is SIMPLE.  That's its point.  What you lose in reality is the complexity of how armor really works, how a "to hit" really works, etc.  That's why most of us who like the complexity have gravitated away from D&D to much better systems, say, like ... Fantasy HERO.

[Wardsman]

I would look at it this way:  Plate Mail (or Armor Class altogether) makes it harder for someone to inflict damage on you, not simply just "harder to hit."  Sure, we all use the terms "to hit" and "damage" to represent the rolls, but that's not what it truly means.  Also, D&D involves hit points (tons of them at higher levels).  These hit points aren't necessarily actual damage to the body, but represent the draw on the physical abilities of the combatant, including actual damage.

 

Therefore, if you look at it the right way, a higher Armor Class given by Plate Mail means the "to hit" roll happens less, resulting in less "hit points" of damage over time.  In that way, all other things being equal (Dex, etc.), a person with heavier armor will take longer to take down than that same person wearing no armor.

 

Now, that being said, D&D is SIMPLE.  That's its point.  What you lose in reality is the complexity of how armor really works, how a "to hit" really works, etc.  That's why most of us who like the complexity have gravitated away from D&D to much better systems, say, like ... Fantasy HERO.

 

D& D simple? No it was first attempt to convert miniature rules(1970's) to RPG. We much better game theory these days.

 

Defense as done by HERO or BRP is much more straight foward and less complicated. There are no abstractions and assumption builtin as there are in D&D Hit points (which measured luck as well as body) , Hit Dice,Saving throws  etc. In Chaoism or Hero hero you hit or don't . If you hit Armor subtracts. Simple.

 

But the notion that you are harder to hit in Heavy armor than leathers is just damn silly. A rogue in leathers should be able dodge and out maneuver someone in plate. Hell there instances where heavily armored Knights got mired in mud and picked off by lightly armored foes.

 

Then there was the problem of unarmed combat and doing non-lethal damage. I remember how we loved the new system from  "How To Finish Fights Faster"article in Dragon 100. But it was a hack for a flawed system. 

 

Now if you like that game philosophy play it. But porting over that mess to HERO is a waste of time in my not so humble opinion.

[Wardsman]

Take a mid level 10 fighter with 65hp it takes approx 12 successful hits with a 2 handed sword no strength bonus to kill him. In the hero system not many non superheroes will walk away from 4 such hits even with good armour. In hero terms your lv 10 fighter needs a body of around 40 even with 75 percent coverage of def 5 armour to come close to sustaining that volume of damage. In the hero system avoiding damage is way more important than it is in dnd, so you may need to consider that body and stun are not comparable to hp when calculating your hit chances.

65 HP for 10th level fighter seems low to me. Any con bonuses?

Even with my bonus hack for conversion that gives me about a 7 body in hero.

But then again average on a d10 is 5.5 so maybe not.

[Richgee]

In my example I was allowing a +1 con bonus and a gm that liked to see pc's sweat.

[Wardsman]

In my example I was allowing a +1 con bonus and a gm that liked to see pc's sweat.

Been awhile since I had to come up a with a conversion for D&D to HERO. 

I forgot I had issues with HP to body. (HP/Level)x2 seems to be a good starting point.

But this is a digression.

[Richgee]

I'm ready for some disagreement, but here go's.

 

To convert to a d20 how about.

AC=10-(((DCV/2.5)-3)+RPD)

To hit bonus = (((base OCV/2.5)-3)+skill levels)

Attacks per round=speed/2

 

Then you reduce base body to 4.max 10 only at creation.

 

Allow its purchase at 2 body for one character point after creation with class caps on body purchased at any "exp" character point award from the campaign.

 

Dose that make any sense?

[Wardsman]

I'm ready for some disagreement, but here go's.

 

To convert to a d20 how about.

AC=10-(((DCV/2.5)-3)+RPD)

To hit bonus = (((base OCV/2.5)-3)+skill levels)

Attacks per round=speed/2

 

Then you reduce base body to 4.max 10 only at creation.

 

Allow its purchase at 2 body for one character point after creation with class caps on body purchased at any "exp" character point award from the campaign.

 

Dose that make any sense?

Was this to me? and are Converting from D&D to Hero or the other way around?

[Richgee]

It's converting hero to a dnd style to hit combined armour and dex ac.system. with body as hit points.

[Wardsman]

I'm ready for some disagreement, but here go's.

 

To convert to a d20 how about.

AC=10-(((DCV/2.5)-3)+RPD)

To hit bonus = (((base OCV/2.5)-3)+skill levels)

Attacks per round=speed/2

 

Then you reduce base body to 4.max 10 only at creation.

 

Allow its purchase at 2 body for one character point after creation with class caps on body purchased at any "exp" character point award from the campaign.

 

Dose that make any sense?

This base DCV or are we counting combat modifiers that may change from phase to phase?

Anyone got some numbers to plug in from their campaigns?

 

I would add that this may be instructional to newbies on the differences between the two systems and what may be lost by sticking with an AC system in hero.

 

But it takes awhile to unlearn certain modes of thinking. It was that way with my group back in the day.

Just look at the stories from when Britain went from old pound to Pound Sterling.

[Richgee]

The calc is for modified dcv. I'm not a fan of streamlining hero combat I actually quite like it, and don't find it in the least cumbersome to use. But the calc should simulate AC and to hits. Because of the difference in spread between d20 and 3d6 I'm assigning approximately 12.5% probability increase per combat level.

 

I know the maths isn't perfect. Its just close to the feel of an AC/to hit single role combat system. It also simulates the effects of high dex.

[Wardsman]

The calc is for modified dcv. I'm not a fan of streamlining hero combat I actually quite like it, and don't find it in the least cumbersome to use. But the calc should simulate AC and to hits. Because of the difference in spread between d20 and 3d6 I'm assigning approximately 12.5% probability increase per combat level.

 

I know the maths isn't perfect. Its just close to the feel of an AC/to hit single role combat system. It also simulates the effects of high dex.

You bring up a good point. We have bell curve in the attack roll while D20 is staight line.

Situation is reversed on stats.

[Christopher R Taylor]

You bring up a good point. We have bell curve in the attack roll while D20 is staight line.

 

 

Which just shows that Hero is a better system.

 

If you change everything in Hero to be exactly the same as D&D... why not just play D&D?

[Wardsman]

Which just shows that Hero is a better system.

 

If you change everything in Hero to be exactly the same as D&D... why not just play D&D?

It might be needed till they adjust. Even I had to unlearn a few D&Disms when I left it.

It is amazing it is still the gateway game after all these years!

But every system has a point of view. Deadlands  took some getting used to when I was exposed to it.

 

Now I've played both RQ and hero. Both are skilled based but RQ uses percentiles. One could argue that is better. It is a matter of preference.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I love percentile dice for their own sake, but the bell curve is more pimple shaped.