Pathfinder Undead

[g3taso]

I'm looking at a game in fantasy, and in this world we have spawning undead. Spawning like the Pathfinder (and D&D before), in that the person killed by the undead critter becomes the same type of undead critter themselves. More than that, they are under complete domination by their creator and can be told to walk into a fire, confront numberless adversaries, and so forth.

 

Could you provide suggestions as to how you might make it in Hero Designer?

 

Please note that some spawning undead are intelligent, and some are unintelligent but can be commanded verbally and function like robots. If you want to break it down between those two basic "types" of spawners that would be awesome.

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

That really is just SFX of a power set and Complications that they receive. It really is as simple as making a Package Deal for this situation. 

[Tholomyes]

I haven't dealt with pathfinder's undead in a while, so some particulars might be wrong, but what I would generally do is build it as a Summon. The bestiary has Zombies as 176 points, so based off that, so this summon would be based on that price, (though it's not too difficult to alter based on other undead). Additionally, summon has the difficulty in that the number of summoned creatures is limited to a certain number, though past a certain number, this limitation doesn't matter much, for most practical purposes (especially if the zombies have summon, themselves):

 

Summon 32 268-point zombies, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½), Trigger: Upon killing a person (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1), Slavishly Devoted (+1) (276 APs); Limited Power: Only when this creature kills a person (-1 ½), Limited Power: Only one creature summoned per use (-½) [276 active points; 92 real points] (This is assuming the Zombies created have the similar summon power themselves, thus 92+176 base = 268. Different creatures will have more or less points to their summon)

[eepjr24]

Borrowed from a package I downloaded somewhere (sorry, don't have original source handy):

 

Full Life Support (No need to: Eat, Sleep, Excrete, Breathe; Immune to Age, Poison, Disease, Intense Heat/Cold, Vacuum/High Pressure) 30

Package Limitations

Cannot enter areas dedicated to 'Good' powers -10 Vulnerable to Positive Planar Energy x2, UnCommon -10 Vulnerable to Fire x2, UnCommon -10 Reputation as Evil Undead 11- Extreme -15 DF: Corporeal Undead, NCon, Noticed, Extreme Reaction -25 Susceptible to Sunlight 2d6\Segment, BODY, Very Common -35 Susceptible to Holy Water 1d6\Segment, BODY, Common -25 Cannot HEAL normally

 

 

Just some ideas for Complications. Then just need some Mind Control or summon as slavishly devoted, depending on which fits the genre better.

 

- E

[Spence]

Just a thought?  Since we are talking of existing beings turning into undead, wouldn't a transform be a better fit? Add in a bit of Automation for the undead side and a dash of either Mind Control or Psy Limitation depending on what feel right.

[g3taso]

Just a thought?  Since we are talking of existing beings turning into undead, wouldn't a transform be a better fit? Add in a bit of Automation for the undead side and a dash of either Mind Control or Psy Limitation depending on what feel right.

There is a thread active about zombie characters and it talks about Automaton features.  Mebbe transform (people killed by it) into new zombies as a "zombie automaton package". Also found a vampire the masquerade "embrace" that is an example of what I'm looking into at http://surbrook.devermore.net/bigbrawl/rpg/vampire.html

 

9    The Embrace: Summon 350-point Vampire; Extra Time: 1 Day (-4), Bulky Expendable OAF (Person) (-1¾),

    Summoned Vampire is Disoriented and Weak for 1-2 Weeks (-1), Gestures (Drink Person to Negative

    BODY, then Feed Some Blood Back to Person, -¼), END 7

[Tholomyes]

The Problem is that if it only does this after killing someone, that's hard if not impossible to do with transform

[Hugh Neilson]

Transform Dead Body into Undead Creature doesn't seem all that hard, if that's the approach one wishes to take. This would be pretty complex in 6e, though (Body, Mind, Spirit and you can't change the target's state between Alive and Dead). But, of course, the GM can always alter the rules. We're handwaving in Summon as well, since the Tasks rules won't work well, we get a specific being (for a vampire; maybe not for a mindless Zombie), etc.

 

Either way, I think a result like The Embrace is pretty reasonable - a low cost to spend an extended period of time to change an already-dead target into an undead creature seems more of a plot device than a power, so a cost that falls in the range of a Perk seems reasonable.

[ghost-angel]

The Problem is that if it only does this after killing someone, that's hard if not impossible to do with transform

 

Nah.

 

Transform: Corpse into Undead

 

This is Hero, dead is just a condition, like Stunned or Unconscious. There's just a more limited means of ending the condition.

 

The Transform just needs to do enough Body to overcome the typical Body of a Corpse (just to ease things along, it's whatever Body the Corpse had while it was alive) plus all the Undead aspects you're adding onto it.

 

Of course, if this is an automatic thing that always happens in the game world when an undead creature kills a living creature, you could always apply a 0 Point Physical Limitation of every living being: When Killed By An Undead Will Rise As An Undead Afterwards. And get on with it.

 

Certain fundamental aspects of the game world's physics don't always need to be defined mechanically, just thematically.

[Netzilla]

I'd also do this as "Transform: Corpse of thing I killed into Undead Like Me but under My Control".  If it's automatic, then add the Trigger advantage.  If this isn't a PC ability, who cares that it's going to be incredibly expensive?  For that matter, if it's an NPC-only ability, I'd probably just hand-wave it and not worry about an actual write-up.

 

If you want something more official, you might want to look at the Zombie write-up in the 6e Hero System Bestiary.  It has a few pages of discussion on how zombie plagues spread and how to model that game-wise so there may be ideas you can use there.  I can't remember if any of the other undead have similar options.

[assault]

It's an NPC critter, isn't it? Write up the critters, and wing the creation bit.

 

Writing up stuff like the following is totally unnecessary:

"Summon 32 268-point zombies, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½), Trigger: Upon killing a person (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1), Slavishly Devoted (+1) (276 APs); Limited Power: Only when this creature kills a person (-1 ½), Limited Power: Only one creature summoned per use (-½) [276 active points; 92 real points]"

 

It provides no useful information, and takes up time that could be spent designing scenarios and world building.

[Lucius]

It's not "I'm an Undead and I have this Killing Attack PLUS a Transform that works on someone I killed" -

 

NO, it's "I'm an Undead and I have this TRANSFORM that LOOKS just like a Killing Attack and has the Limitation of Attack Vs Alternate Defense (Resistant Physical Defense not Power Defense) and the Advantage of Does BODy and heals back whenever regular BODy damage does until the Transform is complete, and at that point only heals back by (insert how it works in your world here.)"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants to play a vampire bard with lesser vampire bard minions as back up musicians who are all unappreciative of their fans. They would be the Ungrateful Undead.

[ghost-angel]

It's not "I'm an Undead and I have this Killing Attack PLUS a Transform that works on someone I killed" -

 

NO, it's "I'm an Undead and I have this TRANSFORM that LOOKS just like a Killing Attack and has the Limitation of Attack Vs Alternate Defense (Resistant Physical Defense not Power Defense) and the Advantage of Does BODy and heals back whenever regular BODy damage does until the Transform is complete, and at that point only heals back by (insert how it works in your world here.)"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants to play a vampire bard with lesser vampire bard minions as back up musicians who are all unappreciative of their fans. They would be the Ungrateful Undead.

 

This is perfect for Romero Zombies; but as I understand Pathfinder Undead, you only return if you're actually killed by one, not a slow transformation just because you were attacked by one...

[Lucius]

This is perfect for Romero Zombies; but as I understand Pathfinder Undead, you only return if you're actually killed by one, not a slow transformation just because you were attacked by one...

As I said, it "looks" like a Killing Attack, and does do BODy. "Killing" the target means finally doing enough Transform effect to turn them into an undead. It's not a gradual Damage over Time Transformation- although in the case of a vampire it may have a Limitation that the new vampire is lying dormant for three nights.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says a manipulative and untruthful vampire exerting influence over a few low level paladins could be lying dominant over three knights

[ghost-angel]

I think it defeats the purpose of the idea. I like it, I just think it doesn't do what is asked here either mechanically or thematically.

 

And it does violate one of the core tenants of Hero: don't use one power to duplicate another. Doing Body Damage kills the target, not Transform. And "Does Body" cannot be applied to attacks that don't do Stun. Transform doesn't do Stun. So the entire thing is complete handwavium already.

[Lucius]

I think it defeats the purpose of the idea. I like it, I just think it doesn't do what is asked here either mechanically or thematically.

 

And it does violate one of the core tenants of Hero: don't use one power to duplicate another. Doing Body Damage kills the target, not Transform.

Does that apply if it's a Transform Power that has the "special effect" that it Transforms a person by "killing" them and then "raising" then as undead? Mechanically, what's happening is a Transform.

 

And "Does Body" cannot be applied to attacks that don't do Stun. Transform doesn't do Stun. So the entire thing is complete handwavium already.

Then we can either dispense with that or link a Killing Attack that's limited to doing as much BOD as the Transform.

 

Or use the Partial Transform Advantage to inflict wounds. (Cosmetic Transform: Looks wounded, maybe loses token amount of STUN; Minor Transform, take up to half total BOD in wounds; Major Transform, take enough wounds to be at Zero BOD; Severe Transform, the Transform is complete and the target is an incipient undead.)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary favors that last choice, but perhaps simplified to "Take the Transform points as BOD damage."

[g3taso]

The palindromedary wants to play a vampire bard with lesser vampire bard minions as back up musicians who are all unappreciative of their fans. They would be the Ungrateful Undead.

 

The palindromedary should watch the band in "From Dusk Till Dawn"