Lets take a second look at Desolidification.

[Ndreare]

Lets take a second look at Desolidification.

 

For starters… I do not like and have never liked the all or nothing way that Desolidification works. In a game based on the idea there are no absolutes we are given an absolute. So what I would like to do is show you guys (and ladies for pc sake) how I would like it done. And ask if any of you have done something different with Desolidification and what did you do?

 

Changes:

1) No longer all or nothing instead it is level based like every thing else.

2) Change its classification from “Standard†to “Defense†power.

3) Remove the “Affected By†inherent limitation.

4) Create a damage reducing aspect to the power.

5) Remove the “Stop†from the power and replace it with a “Cautionâ€.

6) Closer to Density Increase in Ideal.

 

Desolidification

Defense Power

Constant

Self

 

With this standard power a character may make him/herself less tangible than normal matter. (I would love to add more but I am lacking in the creativity area.)

 

Every level of Desolidification purchased allows the character to penetrate/pass through denser and denser materials while at the same time moving the character more and more out of phase with the “normal†environment.

 

Game Mechanic

Every level of Desolidification give the following cumulative bonuses and penalties.

1) Cost 5 Character Points per 2 rDEF Must be purchased for each type of defense individually (PD, ED, MD, PowD ect…)

2) May pass through 1 DEF objects.

3) Reduces all type damage received by the character by 1 DC per DEF type.

4) Reduces ALL Damage dealt by the character by 1DC this includes Attacks that do the DEF does not protect from.

5) Is not inherently hardened vs Attacks (like AP, Penetrating)

 

Example: Dencitar has a 60 points of Desolidification giving him 12 PD, 12 ED he is shot by Pulsar’s 8D6 AP Lighting Blast Dencitar’s desolidification subtracts 6 DC or 4 AP Dice from the attack before Pulsar Rolls then Pulsar rolls and applies the remaining damage to Dencitars other defenses.

 

Dencitar decides on his action he would like to punch Pulsar with his 7D6 Ego Blast he must now subtract 12 DC from his own Attack doing only 1D6 Stun to Pulsar which me may then apply his defenses to.

 

Now finally Dencitar would like to use his power to walk through a wall of solid steel DEF 10 since he has a 12 vs. PD he may pass through the wall completely uninhibited. However if he were to try to pass through a Vault Door of DEF 19 he would be stopped immediately. As this is over his penetration level of 12 DEF.

 

If a Character buy his Desolidification in such a way as to provide uneven DEF then an objects DEF is still compared to his actual levels of Desolidification not his higher or lower DEF amounts.

 

Example: Ghost buy Desolidification 20 DEF vs. PD 4 DEF vs. ED he is struck by Mondo for 18 DC vs. PD Mondo’s hand goes rite through Ghost he is latter shot by Shocker for 14 DC vs. ED he will take 10 Dice of damage to his other defenses. While floating around he desides to pass through a steel wall with 10 DEF (vs. both PD and ED) since actual levels of Desolidification bought is 12 he may still pass through this object.

Cost: 5 Points for a 1 DEF, 2 DC Reduction.

 

Advantages: Armor Piercing, and Reduced END would be common. Penetrating, AVLD, NND and BOECV would be forbidden.

 

Limitations: Many of the common limitations listed under desolidification in the book would be appropriate such as does not protect from damage and cannot pass through solids.

 

 

This is just a quick out of hand type up so please give advice.

[dugfromthearth]

desolidification is an odd power in Hero because Hero generally avoids absolutes and desol is simply an absolute.

 

However you want an absolute for desol. A ghost can pass through any material.

 

I also like the defined "affected by".

 

It seems to me that you are combining tunneling with armor. Whereas "limited" desol would seem more like damage reduction then armor.

 

I could see having 4 levels of desol:

25% dmg reduction and move through def 2

50% dmg reduction and move through def 5

75% dmg reduction and move through def 10

100% dmg reduction and move through any def

 

then apply the same reduction to your strength and any damage that you do.

 

So at 50% dmg reduction a 10 str character could exert on 5 str effect.

[Lord Liaden]

Your proposal is similar to how Desolid was run using pre-4E Champions, although more complex: in the old system a character could move through 1 BODY of obstacle per 5 AP in Desolid. Otherwise it functioned pretty much as it does now.

 

I have to say that I like the current Desolid model - less bookkeeping. What you suggest has much more detail than I would find necessary. 5E Desolid is also much closer to the source material. I mean, does the Vision ever have to make sure that he's "intangible enough" to pass through a given wall? Ghosts are either intangible to the material world, or they're not.

 

It strikes me that what you're describing could be built with a combination of Tunnelling and defense Powers and some Limitations. It's certainly an interesting effect, but more limited in terms of appropriate SFX than what I think Desolid should apply to. But if that works better for what you want in your campaign, by all means go for it.

[Monolith]

The problem with Desolid is that within the comic genre (and for the most part the fantasy genre as well) it is an absolute. The only 3 comic characters who I can think of who use the power regularly (Vision, Shadow Cat, Martian Manhunter) are never affected by any attacks or have an inability to pass through any substance unless the writer decides to make it a special case, and that seems to make sense with the Affects Desolid Advantage.

 

I am personally more inclined to have a Desolid character buy a Multipower with a slot in Desolid 0 END and a slot in 50% Damage Reduction Resistant PHY & ENY to represent different stages of hardness. Not that both of your suggestions are not interesting takes on the ability, but because I do not think the game needs more complicated equations during game play. The game is already too complicated for its own good.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Monolith

The problem with Desolid is that within the comic genre (and for the most part the fantasy genre as well) it is an absolute. The only 3 comic characters who I can think of who use the power regularly (Vision, Shadow Cat, Martian Manhunter) are never affected by any attacks or have an inability to pass through any substance unless the writer decides to make it a special case, and that seems to make sense with the Affects Desolid Advantage.

 

I am personally more inclined to have a Desolid character buy a Multipower with a slot in Desolid 0 END and a slot in 50% Damage Reduction Resistant PHY & ENY to represent different stages of hardness. Not that both of your suggestions are not interesting takes on the ability, but because I do not think the game needs more complicated equations during game play. The game is already too complicated for its own good.

 

Yeah.

 

If you look, Purple Haze has the Damage Reduction option.

[austenandrews]

I -really- don't care for turning every power into a "salad bar" (see 5E Life Support, Shape Change, et al.). However, I could get behind separating the "moving through stuff" aspect of Desol from the "can't be hurt" aspect. I think adding the 100% Damage Reduction option would cover the defense side well enough (maybe with some multiple-SFX Advantages, a la Adjustment powers, to make Vision/Kitty Pryde-style Desol easy to build?). Then you could fold in the "moving through stuff" aspect with Tunnelling.

 

-AA

[Ndreare]

Back in the day Kitty Pride had limits to what she could phase through. I am talking about mare than just one power here though I am curious what in general other things people have done to powers to make them more like the way they like them. The Flash and Superman both have desolid powers with limitations as do some others from marvel. (I am a big comic fan and can acknowledge that often these are plot devices however sometimes all a limitation is is a plot device. Howmany people should realy have access to kryptonite and what are the chances of all of them hating Superman?)

 

Yes I can acknowledge my construct is rough and overcomplicated.

 

I personaly never liked the way they seperated EB from killing attacks (I don't know how I would do it better probly just use a sytem like for every 5 or 10 stun you take you loose 1 body) or they seperate Armor/Damage Resistance/Force Field all of which in my mind should be either persistant Defense (PD/ED and Damage Resistance) or end Costing (Force Field).

 

I am just looking for different way people have done it.

 

An EB evn without AP, or Penetrating could be plenty lethal if you took 1 body damage for every 5 or even 10 stun dealt.

 

I am just kindof fishing here.

[Kristopher]

Superman has a Desolid?

[Ndreare]

I have read comicxs were he uses his hyper speed like the flash to make himself desolid. So yeh he has a desolid.

[Sociotard]

Supermans 'vibrate to desolidify' sounds like a Power Trick skill use to me, but I'm probably off.

 

Here's a thought. If I can buy (with GM Permission) a Desolidify to protect against PD and ED, couldn't there be a version to protect against Mental Powers? or Presence attacks? Granted, Normal Desolid is catagorically still vulnerable to these attacks, but it would be fun to have 'absolute' protection in other areas. Heck, I could see Batman and Wolverine as being completely imune to PRE attacks.

[Ndreare]

Originally posted by Sociotard

Supermans 'vibrate to desolidify' sounds like a Power Trick skill use to me, but I'm probably off.

 

Here's a thought. If I can buy (with GM Permission) a Desolidify to protect against PD and ED, couldn't there be a version to protect against Mental Powers? or Presence attacks? Granted, Normal Desolid is catagorically still vulnerable to these attacks, but it would be fun to have 'absolute' protection in other areas. Heck, I could see Batman and Wolverine as being completely imune to PRE attacks.

 

That would definitly be possible for characrters like that. Can you imagine Apokolypse or Thanos giving some big speech and wolverine just slapping him like he was a ***.

[Armitage]

Originally posted by Ndreare

That would definitly be possible for characrters like that. Can you imagine Apokolypse or Thanos giving some big speech and wolverine just slapping him like he was a ***.

 

Or the X-Men story in which Loki delivered a dramatic and menacing soliloquy and Kitty Pryde walked up to him and replied "Sez you, ferret face!"

[dugfromthearth]

vision does actually have different levels of desol

 

he turns partially desol to reach into people and do massive damage. And he has been hit while partially desol.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

vision does actually have different levels of desol

 

he turns partially desol to reach into people and do massive damage. And he has been hit while partially desol.

 

Good point, I'd overlooked that. Can't remember, though, whether his whole body is "partially intangible" or just his hand when he uses it to attack.

 

Also, from a game-mechanic point of view, do you think that this would count as a "stage" of Desolidification, or as the special effects of Vision's "disruption" attack? Any indication that he's hurt less when partially intangible?

[Rene]

Superman can't vibrate through solid stuff, not since the John Byrne rewrite. But it's possible they gave the power back to him recently, I'm not keeping up with the character, so I wouldn't known.

 

As far as I can remember, the Vision only used his partial desolid trick to attack people. I'd call that a NND attack.

 

Though in theory this new Desolid could be in keeping with how Density Increase and powers like that are dealt with it in HERO, I don't remember ANY fictional character with the power to become desolid enough to pass through light materials but not through metal or something like that.

 

DC Heroes and SAS deal with Desolid this way, but I never liked it. In their attempt to break ALL powers into "levels" they did some weird stuff with powers like Invisibility and Infravision too. Some powers in fiction usually ARE absolute.

[Farkling]

being a fan of the comics in the 70's-90's, I want to weigh in on the "vibration" aspect, a commonly used Flash/Superman trick in the old comics. Right up there with Thor and his "by whirling my hammer at cyclotronic speeds I can transmute the very elements..."

 

Why are you set on it being desol?

 

Does it affect an area attack?

Not in my memory...but even if it does, Damage Reduction fits...after all, they are not completely immune to the damage effects.

 

Is it used as a plot device to pass an obstacle?

It could simply be a tunnelling power stunt.

It states in FREd or the FAQ that Tunnelling with IPE will completely conceal the tunnel if the "closed behind" adder is used.

 

Does it cause attacks to harmlessly pass through the target?

Let's see, that's DCV, Missile Deflection, or simply a huge PD or ED with SFX of "intangible"

 

I don't think Desol should be broken down. I cannot think of a single example of "partially intangible" quoted anywhere. Characters who exhibit a vulnerability while passing through walls and such are typically shape shifters of some kind...and that would be covered by existing powers also. I think Reed Richards is the only character I've seen suffer from a "partial Desol" and that may have been a Shape Shifting power stunt.

 

Invulnerabilty in the comics is typically a "haven't found something that will hurt me yet" Look at Rogue, SuperMan, Colossus, Ultra-Boy, any Daxamite, Mon-El, FireLord, Terrax, Ben Grimm, Hulk, Silver Surfer, Martian Manhunter, and countless other samples...Superman is repeatedly shocked by some things ("that HURT" ?!?)

 

Desolid, on the other hand is typically all or nothing. Characters ARE affected normally, or they are not affected at all. Shadowcat, Red Ghost, the gas woman from the old U-Foes, Vision, Phantom Girl, Deadman...there are feweer examples of intangibles, but they all look like yes/no arrangements.

 

I refuse to include the Martian Manuhunter in the Desol discussion. He used to turn invisible, now he turns invisible and intangible...I think someone made a vocabulary error and was forced to find a reason in comic book land...

 

Besides, MM's intangibility is primarily to dodge damage...passing through walls is a handy power, but I think his PD/ED are still soaking damage.

[Farkling]

Reading of the comics also shows this::

 

Vision turns intangible.

Vision places his hand inside someone.

Vision solidifies.

 

Target (and sometimes VIsion) take damage.

 

Multipower(60)

u Desolidification, 0 END

u 2d6 RKA, +2 STUNx, Penetratiing (Side Effect:: If target only takes penetrating damage, Vision does also)

u Density Increase, 0 END, Persistent

[Kristopher]

RKA?

[Farkling]

Well damn. I pressed the wrong key.

 

Either RKA no range or HKA ... I'm not sure if his STR can actually add to the damage. Meybe my little brother will dig out his old avenger comics and check for me?

[schir1964]

Protean Power

 

This was my solution.

It's based on concept that could be an option to Shape Shift (4th Edition).

But Steve Long said it could also apply to the 5th Edition using the touch sense.

 

This was to get those fluid type character's.

 

Protean Form  [ Standard Power, Constant, Self-Only ]
The characters body can be changed or distorted to squeeze through openings.
It does not allow the character to change his appearance,
nor does it give any extra reach (see Shape Shift and Stretching).
Likewise, while in this form, they can travel at thier normal movement rate.
They can attack and be attacked while in this form.

Protean Form Cost - 20 Points. 

Modifiers

Viscosity (-1/2), +1 Phase (-1/4)
This limitation reflects that additional time required to move through smaller and smaller openings.
The opening size is relative to the character's height.
For a -1/2 limitation and additional phase is required to travel through
and opening 1/4 the character's height.
You can increase the time required for travel by an additional +1 Phase per -1/4 Limitation.

[Opening Size]	(Extra Travel Time)	{Sample Opening Size: 2m Height}
Viscosity	[1/500]		(+8 Phases)		{4 mm}
Viscosity	[1/250]		(+7 Phases)		{8 mm}
Viscosity	[1/125]		(+6 Phases)		{16 mm}
Viscosity	[1/64]		(+5 Phases)		{32 mm}
Viscosity	[1/32]		(+4 Phases)		{64 mm}
Viscosity	[1/16]		(+3 Phases)		{125 mm}
Viscosity	[1/8]		(+2 Phases)		{25 cm}
Viscosity	[1/4]		(+1 Phase)		{50 cm}

Example: Sandman can sift through grates and pipes, but it takes longer for him to do so.
The smaller the opening is, the longer it takes.
Sandman is 2 Meters tall normally.
With this limitation, he could sift through an opening that is 1/4 his height in diameter (50 cm),
but it would take an extra phase to do so.
If the opening is 1/8 his height in diameter (25 cm), then it would take 2 extra phases to flow through it.
For a -3/4 Limitation a 1/4 diameter (50 cm) opening would require
the Sandman 2 addtional phases to travel through it.

Viscosity Limit (Varies)
The smallest opening that a character is able to travel through.
Openings smaller than this limit can not be traveled through.
The opening size is relative to the characters height.

	[Opening Size]	(Limitation Value)	{Sample Opening Size: 2m Height}
Viscosity Limit	[1/500]		(-1/4)			{4 mm}
Viscosity Limit	[1/250]		(-1/2)			{8 mm}
Viscosity Limit	[1/125]		(-3/4)			{16 mm}
Viscosity Limit	[1/64]		(-1)			{32 mm}
Viscosity Limit	[1/32]		(-1 1/4)			{64 mm}
Viscosity Limit	[1/16]		(-1 1/2)			{125 mm}
Viscosity Limit	[1/8]		(-1 3/4)			{25 cm}
Viscosity Limit	[1/4]		(-2)			{50 cm}

Example: Elasticman can squeeze through large cracks and pipes,
but can't squeeze through a screen door or tiny openings.
Elasticman is 2 Meters tall normally.
With a -3/4 limitation, he could squeeze through openings as small as  1/125 his height (16 mm),
but wouldn't be able to squeeze through any opening smaller than 16mm.
Mr Double-Jointed has Viscosity Limit as a -2 Limitation.
He can crawl through air ducts
that most normal men couldn't fit into.
Mr Double-Jointed could add Vicosity in addition to Viscosity Limit
to simulate that it takes him longer to travel through air ducts than when he walks or runs normally.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Ndreare]

Re: Protean Power

 

Originally posted by schir1964

This was my solution.

It's based on concept that could be an option to Shape Shift (4th Edition).

But Steve Long said it could also apply to the 5th Edition using the touch sense.

 

This was to get those fluid type character's.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

 

This is awesom I like it alot more than my own attempt.

 

How long did it take you to work out?

[schir1964]

It took about two weeks of hashing it out here on a thread like this one. It ended up being quite a long one. I tried several different ways to come up with a solution. It took some people a long time to come up with valid points that I could understand to eliminate some of the more clunky attempts. Once I realized that a different Form was the best solution, it was just a matter of getting ideas and getting opinions about it to fine tune it.

 

I can send you and email of this that looks so much better that the post. Just email me at schir1964 @ netzero.net and I get it to you.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Kevin]

Kitty Pryde's desolid is not absolute either. She passes through material with less density with no trouble at zero endurance. When encountering walls that are more dense she has to expend endurance, and for even more dense material has to concentrate.

 

I like the proposed variation of the rules very much, but recognize the bookkeeping headache it would create.

[Farkling]

Or she could be paying END for Armor Piercing on her Desolid to pass through a Hardened Defense...

 

"I have to concentrate harder" - activate the Armor Piercing advantage, bought at x2 END and 1/2 DCV...this limitation is on each of her 2 levels of Armor Piercing...

 

The only times I can recall of "concentrate harder" are from her initial power appearances (still suffering from Lack of Control), and as later prison-escaping plot devices...

 

I think it's a BAD idea to lump the Damage Reduction/Defenses into a package deal the ability to pass through solid objects...from a mechanical standpoint and character design look, it is very Marvel Superheroes.

 

You are making Desolid very attractive for buying "just a couple levels", much the way Density Increase used to be when it granted Armor in addition to STR increases.

[Ndreare]

"I think it's a BAD idea to lump the Damage Reduction/Defenses into a package deal the ability to pass through solid objects...from a mechanical standpoint and character design look, it is very Marvel Superheroes.

"

 

 

 

 

That is funny as MSHRP was my second RPG and I used to like playing it for all the simplisaty (before that we played dad) I wonder if it tainted my views of the power.