How to Build: Winged Armor

[wolfrunswithfox]

I'm currently working on a character who is a power-armor / gadgetteer archetype with magical special effects (a daughter of a forge god who uses her abilities to create various magical items).  She has a variable power pool for custom-build gadgets, but I want to render her "regular" equipment/powers separately.  In particular, she has a suit of armor that grants her both resistant protection and flight (via a pair of golden wings).  I have encountered a few issues in building this that I would like some advice on:

 

    1.  It seems like the flight should have the limitations OIF (because it comes from a suit of armor) and restrainable (because she can't fly if her wings can't move).  However, Champions Complete says that "a power should not take both Restrainable and Focus" (page 115 in the description of Restrainable).  Given that caution, is there a better way to model this?

 

    2.  I have a mental image of the character interposing herself between an energy attack and some innocent bystanders, shielding them with her armor's metal wings.  I initially tried to build this capability as a barrier, but couldn't manage to make it feel right (since the barrier is created touching her, moves with her, is attackable even when it isn't acting as a barrier, etc).  My current inclination is instead to model it as resistant defense with the useable on others and area of effect modifiers (as well as lock-out with other uses of the wings).  Can anyone think of a good way to make the barrier approach work?  Would the resistant defense version need both area of effect and useable on others, or would the effect be accomplishable with just one of those?

[Scott Anderson]

1. It sounds like an OIF with Restrainable to me.  If you don't think she should ever lose her armor, you can make it an OIHID instead.  

 

For Instance, Tony Stark never has his armor removed from him once it's on, which is an OIHID; However, a more primitive suit or exoskeleton might be removable outside of combat, which would be an OIF.

 

2. The barrier can be modeled as Missile Deflection with Ranged (Adjacent, +1/2), OIF (Armor and wings, -1/2), Not vs Heavy Missiles (-1/4).  If it can also prevent people from passing through, build it as Force Wall, No Range (-1/2), OIF (Armor and wings, -1/2); or make both powers and stick it in a Multipower.  

 

Force Walls are already useable by other people if they're behind the wall, and they have a certain amount of "area effect" built in because they have length and sometimes a top and bottom.

 

The Multipower route is how I would build The Falcon from the Civil War movie; I would also Lockout (-1/4, not -1/2) his Flight when he uses either power.

[Beast]

I'd go w/ Restrainable and Only in Hero ID

this would give you a 3/4 limitation

[Ninja-Bear]

Wolfrunswithfox just because the special effect is armor, doesn't mean that it has to be OIF. Look through the focus rules and determine how she could lose her armor. Also the should be caveat somewhere in CC that (in this case) even thiugh typically you shouldn't stack OIF and restrainable, on certain cases you can.

 

I'll make the case that perhaps your wings should be OAF. The Acessable part would represent not that the characrer can lose the wings in flight but still be denined them though.

[eepjr24]

I'll make the case that perhaps your wings should be OAF. The Acessable part would represent not that the characrer can lose the wings in flight but still be denined them though.

That is pretty much the definition of Restrainable. 6e1, 393

 

 

A power with this -½ Limitation is generated by or based upon an area of the body that can be restrained. Examples include Flight defined as having wings or some HKAs defined as having claws.

[Midnightninja]

For your first point.

 

Under the description for Restrainable in 6E1 page 393:

"A power ordinarily should not be Restrainable and bought as a Focus; either one or the other will apply. However, with GM’s permission, in some cases taking both may be acceptable (such as a 'Flight Harness,' a set of wings that straps onto a wearer’s back). In this case, the Focus must not be Accessible, since Accessible Foci can already be restrained by Grabs, Entangles, and the like."

 

This is almost the same situation you're running into. So talk to your GM. If you're the GM it looks like and OIF + Restrainable is acceptable in this case. Otherwise Only in Heroic Identity + Restrainable gets you a -3/4 instead of the -1 that OIF + Restrainable would net you.

 

For your second point, how big of an area is covered by the wings when the character is interposing herself? 

 

My initial thought was that the character would hold or just abort to place themselves between a civilian and the source of the energy attack. If you'd like to model it that way, I'd make it extra rED with the limitation "Only while defending other(s)" I have no idea what value to give that limitation. 

 

Here's a barrier write up with explanations that I hope address your concerns:

 

Barrier 10 ED, 0 BODY (up to 1m long, 2m tall, and 1/2m thick) feel free to adjust the size based on how wide the wingspan is and the BODY for how tough you think the wings are.

Non-Anchored, Mobile (+1/4) The combination of Non-Anchored and Mobile allow the barrier to move with the carrier

Feedback (-1) Attacking the barrier is also attacking the character

No Range (-1/2)

Lockout (-1/2) You said the character can't use her wings for other things while doing this

Restrainable (-1/2) This could be considered double dipping since the wings are already restrainable. Or you could use... 

Gestures, Requires Gestures throughout (Requires both hands; -1) Whether spreading out one's wings is debatable. If you buy the additional limbs for the wings it might be more palatable to your GM   Or you could use...

Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2) At this point, it should be obvious that I feel the act of spreading the wings should be accounted for in some way. Again, extra limbs on a focus would make this more palatable to a GM. 

Cannot Englobe (-1/4) I'm just assuming here. Can the character englobe herself and a civilian with the wings? If so, you don't need this.

Real Armor (-1/4) Only take this if the armor itself has this limitation 

Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4)  Just assuming the character is easier to hit while being extra heroic.

Restricted Shape (-1/4) 

Unified Power (-1/4) If something happens to the wings or armor, something might happen to the Barrier

Custom modifier ("Constant") Barrier is an instant power that has ongoing effects. By default, you create a barrier and then it exists until it's destroyed. Since this barrier only exists for as along as the character maintains it, I feel like there should be a custom limitation to reflect that. Again, I'm terrible at valuing custom limitations so I'd ask more experienced HEROphiles what they think this should be valued at.

Costs Endurance (Only to activate; +1/4) I think making the power constant would required endurance every phase. Personally as a GM, I'd give you the "Constant" limitation and just tell you that you have to pay endurance once. I wouldn't penalize you by making you pay endurance to make a power less useful. I just added this for completeness. 

 

With this write up of Barrier your character can: Raise a barrier between an energy attack and an innocent bystander, the barrier will move with the character, the barrier can be attacked even if it's not currently raised, etc. I hope this addressed all your concerns about barrier. You could even add a side effect that whatever BODY damage the barrier takes also applies to wings. However, some might say that falls under unified power.

 

If you go the AOE route you MUST apply Useable on others advantage. ED is a personal power, and you can't make those AOE without UOO. The missile deflection write-up from earlier in the thread could model what you want too.

 

This seems like a really interesting character. Would you mind posting her when you're finished?

 

Finally, I think I want to put up this barrier on steriaca's Power Factory thread. Would you mind if I did?

[assault]

For your first point.

 

Under the description for Restrainable in 6E1 page 393:

"A power ordinarily should not be Restrainable and bought as a Focus; either one or the other will apply. However, with GM’s permission, in some cases taking both may be acceptable (such as a 'Flight Harness,' a set of wings that straps onto a wearer’s back). In this case, the Focus must not be Accessible, since Accessible Foci can already be restrained by Grabs, Entangles, and the like."

 

This is almost the same situation you're running into. So talk to your GM. If you're the GM it looks like and OIF + Restrainable is acceptable in this case. Otherwise Only in Heroic Identity + Restrainable gets you a -3/4 instead of the -1 that OIF + Restrainable would net you.

 

Or you could take OAF. Notionally that allows someone to run away with the character's wings, but it's easier way of getting the effect you want.

 

The OAF would be on the wings only. The armour as a whole would be OIF.

 

I'd go with Missile Deflection for the shielding effect. Multipower it with the character's flight, so you don't need to use Lockout.

[assault]

Here's a barrier write up with explanations that I hope address your concerns:

 

Barrier 10 ED, 0 BODY (up to 1m long, 2m tall, and 1/2m thick) feel free to adjust the size based on how wide the wingspan is and the BODY for how tough you think the wings are.

Non-Anchored, Mobile (+1/4) The combination of Non-Anchored and Mobile allow the barrier to move with the carrier

Feedback (-1) Attacking the barrier is also attacking the character

No Range (-1/2)

Lockout (-1/2) You said the character can't use her wings for other things while doing this

Restrainable (-1/2) This could be considered double dipping since the wings are already restrainable. Or you could use... 

Gestures, Requires Gestures throughout (Requires both hands; -1) Whether spreading out one's wings is debatable. If you buy the additional limbs for the wings it might be more palatable to your GM   Or you could use...

Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2) At this point, it should be obvious that I feel the act of spreading the wings should be accounted for in some way. Again, extra limbs on a focus would make this more palatable to a GM. 

Cannot Englobe (-1/4) I'm just assuming here. Can the character englobe herself and a civilian with the wings? If so, you don't need this.

Real Armor (-1/4) Only take this if the armor itself has this limitation 

Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4)  Just assuming the character is easier to hit while being extra heroic.

Restricted Shape (-1/4) 

Unified Power (-1/4) If something happens to the wings or armor, something might happen to the Barrier

Custom modifier ("Constant") Barrier is an instant power that has ongoing effects. By default, you create a barrier and then it exists until it's destroyed. Since this barrier only exists for as along as the character maintains it, I feel like there should be a custom limitation to reflect that. Again, I'm terrible at valuing custom limitations so I'd ask more experienced HEROphiles what they think this should be valued at.

Costs Endurance (Only to activate; +1/4) I think making the power constant would required endurance every phase. Personally as a GM, I'd give you the "Constant" limitation and just tell you that you have to pay endurance once. I wouldn't penalize you by making you pay endurance to make a power less useful. I just added this for completeness. 

 

It's a question of taste, naturally, but for me this pretty much sums up "how not to build HERO characters".

 

One of the reasons why people think HERO is complicated is that people over complicate things.

[eepjr24]

It's a question of taste, naturally, but for me this pretty much sums up "how not to build HERO characters".

 

One of the reasons why people think HERO is complicated is that people over complicate things.

Obviously, opinions vary. I don't think Hero is complicated. Complex and allowing for many different styles of play and the ability to model pretty much anything, yes. Complicated? No.

 

- E

[pinecone]

I used a Winged Char back in the day (4Th I think)...and I bought Armor, +8Def (8PD,8ED) Usable by Others in a Multi Power with Flight so I could shelter myself, and/or others from gun fire etc....

 

Something Like that should work in 6Th, just now Armor is not a power, it is an effect....(Zero End etc...)

[Midnightninja]

Or you could take OAF. Notionally that allows someone to run away with the character's wings, but it's easier way of getting the effect you want.

 

What's easier about this? That you have to write down 1 limitation instead of 2?

 

 

It's a question of taste, naturally, but for me this pretty much sums up "how not to build HERO characters".

 

One of the reasons why people think HERO is complicated is that people over complicate things.

 

Complexity is subjective. Considering that HERO has mountains of options, including the option to use as many or as few of the options as you like, I feel like presenting a power with as many of the possible options would be the best way to answer the OP's questions. I'm not the GM of the OP's game, I don't have know how much or how little the GM wants to deal with when building powers.

 

The OP wanted to model this character as rules-legal as possible. Now that says to me that the OP is trying to learn the system, is unclear on a few points, and is posting on the forum to get insight that they might not have on the system. Making a barrier with a bunch of advantages and limitations that address the OP's concerns, provides explanations, and ideally, allows them to gain insight into the system seems far more helpful to me than, "Hey, do it this way." I wrote it up as "overly-complicated" because going into that level of detail allows the OP and their GM to remove and add what they feel best models the effect they want.

 

Even going into detail on why my write-up might be unhelpful would have served the OP better.

 

*endrant

 

wolfrunswithfox, I hope we've all helped you address these issues you're having while writing up this character

 

 

Obviously, opinions vary. I don't think Hero is complicated. Complex and allowing for many different styles of play and the ability to model pretty much anything, yes. Complicated? No.

 

- E

 

+1. I agree with this wholeheartedly, but, obviously, opinions vary.

[Ninja-Bear]

Or you could take OAF. Notionally that allows someone to run away with the character's wings, but it's easier way of getting the effect you want.

 

The OAF would be on the wings only. The armour as a whole would be OIF.

 

I'd go with Missile Deflection for the shielding effect. Multipower it with the character's flight, so you don't need to use Lockout.

Assault I would say that if you defined the OAF as personal then they couldn't run off with it.

[Ninja-Bear]

That is pretty much the definition of Restrainable. 6e1, 393

Btw depending on the edition, wings were OAF then OIF then restrainable came about. Funny thing is, how to defeat someone with wings never changed

[assault]

Btw depending on the edition, wings were OAF then OIF then restrainable came about. Funny thing is, how to defeat someone with wings never changed

 

That pretty much summarizes my approach to the issue, and to the system as a whole, in fact.

 

The level of granularity has gone a bit overboard for my tastes.

 

Other people's tastes differ.

[wolfrunswithfox]

Thank you very much to everyone who responded; this has been extremely helpful. I liked both Scott's deflection suggestion and midnightninja's barrier write-up, so I ended up using them both.

 

The current version of the character has three wing configurations: flight, barrier, and extra limbs with an "only for blocking" OCV bonus.

 

Since she should only be able to block attacks within her wingspan, it seemed easier to just give the wings reach than to dial the range on deflection down to 3 meters or so.

 

I was originally planning to put the three configurations into a multipower, but the active point discrepancy made that awkward (enough points in the pool to activate the barrier would also be enough to activate flight and limbs at the same time, which the character should not be able to do), so I used lockout instead. This had the side benefit of letting me define the barrier's lockout as also preventing the creation of multiple barriers (per APG 1).

 

Thanks again to everyone who helped out!

[eepjr24]

That pretty much summarizes my approach to the issue, and to the system as a whole, in fact.

 

The level of granularity has gone a bit overboard for my tastes.

 

Other people's tastes differ.

The lovely thing about Hero is that even though all that granularity is there, it is quite easy to just ignore it and use what you want.

[Pattern Ghost]

Assault I would say that if you defined the OAF as personal then they couldn't run off with it.

 

If it was defined as Personal, someone else couldn't use them to fly. They could still snatch them. OAF is the wrong disad here.

[wolfrunswithfox]

Current build of the character, as requested by midnightninja.  Sorry it took so long to finish this off and get it posted.  I went on vacation in the interrim and didn't have a lot of time to fine-tune the mechanics.  Questions, comments, and criticisms are welcome.

 

Forge, Daughter of Vulcan

Strength 30

Dexterity 15

Constitution 30

Intelligence 15

Ego 20

Presence 20

OCV 8

DCV 7

OMCV 3

OMCV 5

Speed 4

PD 5

ED 5

Recovery 10

Endurance 50

Body 25

Stun 50

Running 12m

Leaping 4m

Swimming 0m

Total Characteristics: 190

Language: English (Fluent with Accent; Latin is native, 2)

Teamwork (12-, 3)

PS: Smithing (12-, 3)

Weaponsmith (12- 3)

Power Skill: Crafted Arsenal (12-, 3)

Skill Levels: +4 with crafting skills (12)

Total Skills: 26

Striking Appearance (Beauty, vs all characters) +2 to interaction skills and +2d6 to Presence Attacks (6)

Fists Like Iron

    HtH Attack +2d6 (10)

Made of Sterner Stuff (24)

    5/5 Resistant PD/ED (15)

    5 Power Defense (5)

    Life Support

        Extended Breathing: 1 endurance per minute (2)

        Diminished Eating: Once per week (1)

        Diminished Sleep: 8 hours per week (1)

Child of the Forge (23)

    20 Resistant ED (Only vs Heat and Fire -¾, Unified Power -¼)

    5 Flash Defense: Sight (Unified Power -¼)

    Life Support (Unified Power -¼)

        Safe in High Heat

        Safe in High Pressure

        Safe in Intense Radiation

Golden Winged Armor (87)

    15 / 15 Resistant Protection (OIF -½) (30)

   

    Flight* 30m (OIF -½, Restrainable -½, Lockout -½) (12)

    Extra Limbs* (OIF -½, Limited Manipulation -¼) (3)

    Stretching* 3m (OIF -½, Limited Body Parts -¼, 0 Endurance +½) (3)

    +4 OCV* (OIF -½, Only to Block with Wings -1) (8)

    Barrier* (31)

2m tall x 6m wide x ½m thick

    15/15 Resistant PD/ED

    Non-Anchored, Opaque

    (OIF -½, Restrainable -½, Feedback -1, Lockout -½, No Range -½, Mobile +¼)

Crafted Arsenal (20 + 60)

    Variable Power Pool (80 Control Cost, 60 Point Pool)

               (Only Magical Equipment -¼, Changing Pool Takes Hours -¼, Can Only Be Changed With Access To Workshop -½)

       

Total Powers: 230

Total Points: 446

Complications

    Distinctive Features: Sets off Metal Detectors (Not Concealable, Causes Major Reaction, Dectectable by Simple Tests) 15

    Hunted: Keeper of the Iron Vaults (Infrequently, More Powerful, Harshly Punish) 15

    Hunted: The Unmakers (Frequently, As Powerful, Harshly Punish) 15

    Physical Complication: Sinks Like A Stone (Frequently, Greatly Impairing) 20

    Social Complication: No Legal Status (Frequently, Major) 15

Total Complications: 80

[wolfrunswithfox]

Also, midnightninja, feel free to post anything here in the power factory thread or wherever else.  Especially since you did all the work on that barrier write-up.  I just had the idea, and I can't be the first (or hundredth) person to think of wing-wall as a power.