Fragmentation Grenades

[Armitage]

I recently obtained a battered second-hand copy of the original "Golden Age of Champions", from Firebird Limited.  It has a build for fragmentation grenades that I haven't seen before, although there is some superficial similarity to how GURPS handles them.  The only pre-4e rulebook I have is Champions III, so I'm not sure if they were normally built this way in the past.

 

Instead of a straight RKA Explosion, the grenade has an Energy Blast Explosion for the grenade's concussion, and then a small Autofire RKA Radius for the shrapnel.  At that point, some special rules get invoked.  Anyone in the blast radius is considered 0 DCV, modified only by size, cover, etc. (a +1 Advantage).  The grenade then has its own OCV that's used for the shrapnel attack, starting at 0 OCV and costing 3 Active Points per +1 OCV.  The shrapnel also has an old style Range Modifier of -3/1".  The number on either side of the slash can be increased or decreased for 3 Active Points per +/- 1.

 

For example, a Type 91 Fragmentation Grenade in the 4e "Golden Age Champions" was a 3d6 RKA, Explosion.

 

The same grenade in the earlier book was a 4d6 Energy Blast, Explosion, -1d6/2 hexes and a 1/3d6 RKA (this was a thing then, I guess), 7" Radius, Autofire, with OCV 6 and -3/1" RMod.

 

 

Has anyone tinkered with creating a similar style grenade using modern rules?

 

Maybe instead of a partial die with Autofire, an RKA with Reduced Penetration instead.  Reduced By Range too?  An Activation Roll made for each target in the blast radius, with an added Limitation for Cover and Size DCV modifiers affecting the Activation Roll?  Two separate Linked RKAs, with the second having a lower Activation Roll?

 

 

Would such a build even be worth the additional complexity?  I suppose it could more realistically show a bulletproof character ignoring lots of small metal fragments, just like they would ignore small caliber bullets.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah that's how I always build fragmentation attacks: blast plus KA autofire area

[Christopher]

Long ago I realised the following build could help:

Nuclear Bomb: 26d6 Normal Damage Attack, Megascale

It would be way enough to kill every normal in the area. The blast will go through weakpoints (doors, doorframes, windows) to hit them all with 26 Body.

 

At the same time, 26 Body normal Damage would not be too big for the bricks to survive. And superman surviving a nuclear bomb has happened a lot in the source material.

 

That build follows a similar idea, I think. Against a unarmored person or non-super, the Autofire RKA would be deadly.

But with sufficient protection, it would be able to save the person.

Note that with 6E there is a limitation that doubles the defense vs attacks (non-penetrating), resulting in about the same effect with a easier build.

[Nolgroth]

I almost see the logic behind such a build but what I am not seeing is how many fragments and how are the targets for the AF RKA chosen. Seems to me that a Blast followed by a RKA, Explosion, Activation would be how I would model it. Of course, I would also add a Hearing Flash, Explosion to the build for good measure. That gets rid of the necessity for Autofire and all the clumsiness it brings. If the Activation roll says you get hit by shrapnel, then you get hit. If it says the shrapnel missed you, well guess what? Lucky day for you.

 

I try to streamline everything in game for the purpose of quick flowing combat. With an Activation, I can simply have everybody roll 3d6. Puts the fate of their characters in the players' hands. That sure beats rolling OCV rolls for all those fragments flying around. Of course, I may be missing the point.

[bigdamnhero]

I had forgotten that's how they used to build frags. Having thrown a few grenades back in the day, it seems like a more accurate model. Whether it's worth the added complexity or not is a YMMV. I have always thought the book builds for grenades were pretty wimpy compared to real life, tho they're pretty close to how grenades are usually portrayed in most fiction. Hmmm...next time I run a modern campaign I'll have to give that some more thought.

[bigdamnhero]

The same grenade in the earlier book was a 4d6 Energy Blast, Explosion, -1d6/2 hexes and a 1/3d6 RKA (this was a thing then, I guess), 7" Radius, Autofire, with OCV 6 and -3/1" RMod.

4d6 Energy Blast is awfully weak tho, even at point blank range. Like barely worth rolling the dice, even in a Heroic game.

 

Ditto for the 1/3d6 RKA. I know Golden Age characters aren't generally as tough as modern-era Champions, but 2rPD should not make you immune to grenades.

 

7" effective radius seems about right IIRC. But if I understand the mechanics right at 2" away you only have a 50-50 chance of catching a single fragment? And at 3" away you only get hit on an 8-? Weak tea.

 

Neat concept overall, but the build just seems ridiculously wimpy at first glance.

[NuSoardGraphite]

That is also how I have done it in the past. However, I always place non-selective on the fragmentation part, with OCV bonses based on the expanding radius of the AoE. +5 OCV in the center Hex and -2 to OCV per hex with a base OCV of 3 so it looks like this:

 

Center Hex: OCV 8

2 hex radius: OCV 6

3 hex radius: OCV 4

4 hex radius: OCV 2

5 hex radius: OCV 0

[Christopher]

I almost see the logic behind such a build but what I am not seeing is how many fragments and how are the targets for the AF RKA chosen.

It is a AoE Autofire, so the answer is: It attacks everyone once per AF level.

[Nolgroth]

It is a AoE Autofire, so the answer is: It attacks everyone once per AF level.

 

Fatigue is a brain killer.  In that case, I'd still go with an Activation roll. 

[Tasha]

I think I would still go with a fixed radius RKA reduced Pen, perhaps with reduced by range or explosion. Keep it simple.

[Hadmar von Wieser]

I have always thought the book builds for grenades were pretty wimpy compared to real life, tho they're pretty close to how grenades are usually portrayed in most fiction.

I agree with bigdamnhero: movie explosions regularily use blasts directed upward. So you get that slow moving orange fire ball (which is from petrol, not military explosives) and all that earth raining down. You do not get lethal forces radially expanding and endangering your stuntmen. 

Which of course is the general idea and effect of explosive ammunition: killing people all around.   

 

So it depends on what you want:

In most games I go for the cinematic effect, so I go with Nolgroth's approach: fewer dice rolling, more impressive FX.

If I play a hardcore tech military or sf story then I want that autofire rain of 1200 km/h shrapnel on EVERY spot around the explosion. Even if this means 5 minutes of rolling until we know how the car looks after, the hostage, the four heroes, their equipment, and the three mooks.

 

 

 

[Hadmar von Wieser]

And by the way: I still believe that modern grenades shouldn't be 2d6 RKA Explosion, but 3d6 RKA Explosion. That still means only 50% instant kill on point range (for normals).

Sadly there is much factual documentation on what grenades do in a crowd - and 2d6 might not even have been in realistic WWII. Most modern grenades are considered to have "effective casualty-producing radius of 10m" or more, to use that cold militaristic jargon.
http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/hand_grenades/hand-grenades-study-guide.shtml

And here is a typical case of "half of them dead instantly":
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3442628/