Crunchy Ground

[Christopher]

No, it acts on the linked Detect Sight Invisibility that I bought specifically for it, as mentioned. That Detect I would probably leave in the Unusual "Group" since the SFX to me would not neatly fit one of the other groups. I suppose if the OP thought of it as acting on Hearing (crunching the crystals), Radio (crystals give off RF noise when disturbed), or Touch (the character "feels" when the crystals are touched), all of those would work equally well. 

 

Invisibility (by RAW) is not absolute at all. For sight (using this example), there is the possibility of Fringe, Bright Fringe, Indirect Detection (as covered earlier), Direct Detection (using normal senses other than what the invisibility covers) and Unusual Senses (Of which there are at least 10 listed without getting into edge cases). Even trying to make just sight Invisibility absolute would cost 80 points right off the bat. If the player wanted it that badly I would probably hand wave it at that point and call it "absolute", but certainly not for 20 points.

 

- E

Invisibility (Sight, Hearing, No Fringe) cloks in at:

20 (Targetting Sense Group; Sight)

5 (extra non-Targetting Sense Group; Hearing)

10 (no Fringe)

35 Points

And for 25 Points it has a 2m Fringe. Way beyond any ranged attacks.

 

Of course if you want it combat useable, you can not put it into most Frameworks (with your attacks).

And the attacks themself need to be IPE, or they will expose you.

 

One interesting thing about those "Indirect" detection options:

The GM is free to say they are not avalible right now. It is not a reliable way to get around it.

This power would be a reliable way to get around it. That is a problem.

 

Some of this discussion suggests that Invisibility should be written up differently in the system. Hero is the one system that says "no Absolutes" ex Invisibility. Why not define Invisibility as a flat -8 to Perception vs all of the things you wish to be invisible for. "No Fringe" adds like another -4 to that. Then Detect Invisibility becomes a +8 to perception only vs invisibility.

That they affect 'thier' Sense/Sense Group absolutely is true for all Sense Affecting Powers:

 

Darkness (Sight Group) can not be pierced with any Sight Group Perception.

Flash (Sight Group) Disabels all your sight Group Perception ability.

Images (Sight Group) will fool your Sight Group sense perfectly.

All exceptions are written into the power itself and explicitly.

 

So whatever sense you use to Detect a invisible Character, it can not be in the Sense Group that the character is invisible against.

[Tasha]

Invisibility (Sight, Hearing, No Fringe) cloks in at:

20 (Targetting Sense Group; Sight)

5 (extra non-Targetting Sense Group; Hearing)

10 (no Fringe)

35 Points

And for 25 Points it has a 2m Fringe. Way beyond any ranged attacks.

 

Of course if you want it combat useable, you can not put it into most Frameworks (with your attacks).

And the attacks themself need to be IPE, or they will expose you.

 

One interesting thing about those "Indirect" detection options:

The GM is free to say they are not avalible right now. It is not a reliable way to get around it.

This power would be a reliable way to get around it. That is a problem.

 

That they affect 'thier' Sense/Sense Group absolutely is true for all Sense Affecting Powers:

 

Darkness (Sight Group) can not be pierced with any Sight Group Perception.

Flash (Sight Group) Disabels all your sight Group Perception ability.

Images (Sight Group) will fool your Sight Group sense perfectly.

All exceptions are written into the power itself and explicitly.

 

So whatever sense you use to Detect a invisible Character, it can not be in the Sense Group that the character is invisible against.

This paragraph seems to counter your last couple of paragraphs.

 

Other characters may find creative ways to overcome a character’s Invisibility. For example, throwing a blanket over an Invisible to Sight Group character would reveal his position. So would trapping him in an Entangle, splashing paint on him, spilling liquids or powders on the floor so he leaves footprints, and so forth. Depending on the situation, the special effects, and similar considerations, this may allow other characters to attack the Invisible character at full OCV or -1 OCV.

 

Though some of your post also seems to make my Danger Sense build more solid. Where anyone around 10m of the PC will have a chance to know if someone is sneaking up on them.

[eepjr24]

Invisibility (Sight, Hearing, No Fringe) cloks in at:

20 (Targetting Sense Group; Sight)

5 (extra non-Targetting Sense Group; Hearing)

10 (no Fringe)

35 Points

And for 25 Points it has a 2m Fringe. Way beyond any ranged attacks.

 

Of course if you want it combat useable, you can not put it into most Frameworks (with your attacks).

And the attacks themself need to be IPE, or they will expose you.

 

One interesting thing about those "Indirect" detection options:

The GM is free to say they are not avalible right now. It is not a reliable way to get around it.

This power would be a reliable way to get around it. That is a problem.

So you think that 25 points should prevent any ranged attack against someone who is invisible? Yeah, we are gonna disagree on that one, but it's fine since we'll never play and the rules don't support it. Show me with the rules why this would not simply show exactly where the invisible character was:

 

Images vs Sight, Area of Effect Radius: 8m, Trigger: When Invisible person enters area (17 Active Points); Only to create image of invisible person for targetting (-1) 8 RP

Detect Invisible People, Unusual Sense Group (5 Active Points); Linked to Images (-1/2), Unified Power (-1/4) 3 RP

 

That works out to about half the cost of the power it is defeating, which seems about right to me.

 

That they affect 'thier' Sense/Sense Group absolutely is true for all Sense Affecting Powers:

 

Darkness (Sight Group) can not be pierced with any Sight Group Perception.

Flash (Sight Group) Disabels all your sight Group Perception ability.

Images (Sight Group) will fool your Sight Group sense perfectly.

All exceptions are written into the power itself and explicitly.

 

So whatever sense you use to Detect a invisible Character, it can not be in the Sense Group that the character is invisible against.

Darkness can be penetrated with Fully Penetrative.

Flash can be defended against with a very low power defense or by simply looking away if you know it is coming.

Images takes a roll and will not defeat highly perceptive individuals except at VERY high AP levels.u

 

Exceptions to all of those powers: I can make a roll with a non-targetting sense and still find you and hit you at range with 1/2 of my OCV. Since it is not a maneuver, I can even by OCV PSL levels to offset the penalty. So for about 3 points per OCV I can buy them off for all attacks or 1 point per OCV if I just want it for a single attack.

 

So absolutes? No.

[Manic Typist]

I thought we were talking about Invisible to Hearing, in which case the Fringe gives the sneak-ee a Hearing PER Roll. (Which could be modified by CE.) If you're assuming the Fringe is on Invisible to Sight, then yeah that wouldn't be relevant here.

You know, I realized this after I was driving to work and thought "Man, that was stupid of me."

 

However, it should still leave visible signs of passage - the fact that the ice crystals were broken, tracks in the snow, etc. For that, you need a good Stealth roll/Survivalist/etc.

[Christopher]

 

This paragraph seems to counter your last couple of paragraphs.

 

Other characters may find creative ways to overcome a character’s Invisibility. For example, throwing a blanket over an Invisible to Sight Group character would reveal his position. So would trapping him in an Entangle, splashing paint on him, spilling liquids or powders on the floor so he leaves footprints, and so forth. Depending on the situation, the special effects, and similar considerations, this may allow other characters to attack the Invisible character at full OCV or -1 OCV.

 

Though some of your post also seems to make my Danger Sense build more solid. Where anyone around 10m of the PC will have a chance to know if someone is sneaking up on them.

 

But Foci are also covered by Invisibility. Foci like Power Armor. Or if the user was just mascerading as a Ghost for Halloween and wearing a sheet with holes anyway.

So at wich point does this sheet thrown over him change from a Foreign Object to a focus/equipped item?

And I mean without infering certain Limitations.

 

Welcome to the quagmire that is adjudicating Sense Affecting Powers.

 

 

Re eepjr24:

"So you think that 25 points should prevent any ranged attack against someone who is invisible?"

I have literally no idea how you got to that missinterpretation.

Fringe range is 2m by default. Range attacks usually have ranges way beyond 2m. So even with a normal Fringe you can range attack without warning the enemy ahead of time. Indeed this whole power is about preventing being attacked from Stealth Surprise.

Attacking the Invisible Character needs a targetting Sense lock. Wich you can not have using Sight, if he has Invisibility (Sight). Unless rules specifically written into Visibility override that.

 

"Darkness can be penetrated with Fully Penetrative.

Flash can be defended against with a very low power defense or by simply looking away if you know it is coming.

Images takes a roll and will not defeat highly perceptive individuals except at VERY high AP levels."

Darkness:

Page reference and claficiarion for Darkness needed: Do you mean conventional Darkness (as in lack of light, 6E2), or "Darkness, The Sense Affecting Power?"

I spoke of the later. And it does not mater if you got Penetrating on Sight, because Darkness (Sight Group) blocks all Sight Group Powers. Inlcuding and especially that Sight Group Power with Penetrating on it. Darkness (Sight Group) is the game effect. If you as GM want to rule specific Special Effects of Darkness (the Power) does not block specific Special Effects of Penetrating on that Sense Group, that is you mistake to make.

The reason Spartial Awarness will get around Darkness, Flash, Invisibility, Images and hte like is that it is by default bought as Independant Sense. Wich is why it costs beyond 30 Points. If you want to save points by moving it to the hearing or sight group, it is of course fully affected by anything Affecting that group.

 

Flash:

Flash is resisted by it's designated defenses, wich is Flash Defense (Specific Sensor Group). Of wich there is one per Sense Group. Power Defense does not even operate remotely similar.

Regarding "turning away": "Te GM may wish to allow characters who are

prepared for or expecting a Flash to take defensive actions (covering their eyes with their hands,

or something similar) to reduce or eliminate the

effects of the Flash. (Characters generally can’t

Abort to do this, since by defnition that means

they’re not “prepared.”) Obviously, whether such

actions succeed depends on the special effect of

the Flash — a character who covers his ears won’t

be protected from a Sight Group Flash!"

Notes: Explicitly GM option and only if aware.

 

Note that you can of course still Dodge/Ranged Block/whatever defensive Maneuver against the attack itself. Wich could also be interpreted as "trying to turn your eyes away before they get fully flashed".

 

Also, you somehow missed the most important line of that Paragraph:

"All exceptions are written into the power itself and explicitly."

 

You know, I realized this after I was driving to work and thought "Man, that was stupid of me."

 

However, it should still leave visible signs of passage - the fact that the ice crystals were broken, tracks in the snow, etc. For that, you need a good Stealth roll/Survivalist/etc.

That goes into the area of Tracking and walking Trackless. Not direct perception.

[eepjr24]

Re eepjr24:

"So you think that 25 points should prevent any ranged attack against someone who is invisible?"

I have literally no idea how you got to that missinterpretation.

Fringe range is 2m by default. Range attacks usually have ranges way beyond 2m. So even with a normal Fringe you can range attack without warning the enemy ahead of time. Indeed this whole power is about preventing being attacked from Stealth Surprise.

Attacking the Invisible Character needs a targetting Sense lock. Wich you can not have using Sight, if he has Invisibility (Sight). Unless rules specifically written into Visibility override that.

Except of course you are ignoring the rules that say otherwise, 6e2, pg 7.

 

 

Re eepjr24:

Also, you somehow missed the most important line of that Paragraph:

"All exceptions are written into the power itself and explicitly."

Nope, didn't miss it. I quoted rules that were not in the power itself and explicitly. You sometimes point out that they are GM Option, but in Hero everything always is. RE: Penetratvie vs Darkness, see APG2, pg 25. 

 

You don't have to like the rules. You don't have to use any of them that you don't want to. But as written they are not supporting your stance.

 

- E

[Hugh Neilson]

Images vs Sight, Area of Effect Radius: 8m, Trigger: When Invisible person enters area (17 Active Points); Only to create image of invisible person for targetting (-1) 8 RP

Detect Invisible People, Unusual Sense Group (5 Active Points); Linked to Images (-1/2), Unified Power (-1/4) 3 RP

Except the rules tell us that "The circumstance that activates a Triggered power must be easily verifiable, and cannot depend on any Senses the character does not possess — characters cannot use Trigger as a cheap way to detect phenomena they could not ordinarily perceive."

6e Vol 1 p 350

[Manic Typist]

But Foci are also covered by Invisibility. Foci like Power Armor. Or if the user was just mascerading as a Ghost for Halloween and wearing a sheet with holes anyway.

So at wich point does this sheet thrown over him change from a Foreign Object to a focus/equipped item?

And I mean without infering certain Limitations.

I'd think common sense would make it clear that a sheet (or powder, or water, or oil, or dirt, or whatever) thrown onto an invisible character would obviously not be a foci that they were using/possessing. You don't control the foci of the Entangle you a captured in, for instance. Not to mention, it happened after the invisibility was activated. I'm pretty sure it's a different build to turn things you pick up (that you can't fit inside your already invisible pockets) invisible upon contact.

 

Now, if the character deactivates and reactivates the power to then hide the sheet/dirt/whatever.... sure.

[kukuli]

Hi all. Building a character who generates and manipulates crystal. I want her to be able to generate an area of brittle crystals around her so that it crunches whenever someone (invisible) approaches. Would this be done as a Detect or PER rolls bonus? I'm using 4e.

I don't remember if fourth edition had Images, but sound images triggered by stepping on the crystal would work.

[Hyper-Man]

Images is NOT a Sensory Power. It is a Sense Affecting Power.  Adding Trigger to it does not provide any Sense the character doesn't already have.

 

HM

[Tasha]

I'd think common sense would make it clear that a sheet (or powder, or water, or oil, or dirt, or whatever) thrown onto an invisible character would obviously not be a foci that they were using/possessing. You don't control the foci of the Entangle you a captured in, for instance. Not to mention, it happened after the invisibility was activated. I'm pretty sure it's a different build to turn things you pick up (that you can't fit inside your already invisible pockets) invisible upon contact.

 

Now, if the character deactivates and reactivates the power to then hide the sheet/dirt/whatever.... sure.

IIRC non weapon/non Invisible Power effect things that a character lifts can be added to the Invis. Though it may take an active phase to do so. Attack Powers(Foci) without IPE don't become invisible. Though I would probably rule that an attack power that hasn't been activated doesn't become visible until used in combat. Where it becomes visible. 6e1 does a great job of explaining the ins and outs of Invisibility.

[Tasha]

I don't remember if fourth edition had Images, but sound images triggered by stepping on the crystal would work.

Images have existed in the system since 1st edition Fantasy Hero (where the power was first introduced). It may have had a different name in 4e.

[Christopher]

Images is NOT a Sensory Power. It is a Sense Affecting Power.  Adding Trigger to it does not provide any Sense the character doesn't already have.

 

HM

Trigger can use every sense the Charcter has, even by default. Most Characters have the "Touch Sense Group". Trigger reacting to a Touch impression (stepping on the crystall) would thus be feasible.

Indeed a touch-sensed time for explosion is exactly how I would define Landmines

[Hugh Neilson]

Trigger can use every sense the Charcter has, even by default. Most Characters have the "Touch Sense Group". Trigger reacting to a Touch impression (stepping on the crystall) would thus be feasible.

Indeed a touch-sensed time for explosion is exactly how I would define Landmines

I agree with this - but that won't help you detect an invisible foe unless everyone else avoids stepping on the crystals. If everyone is crunching crystals, one more won't really be noticeable.

[eepjr24]

Images is NOT a Sensory Power. It is a Sense Affecting Power.  Adding Trigger to it does not provide any Sense the character doesn't already have.

 

HM

I agree, which is why I bought a linked detect with it? Do you think that would not work for some reason?

[Hugh Neilson]

Coming back to this...

 

Images vs Sight, Area of Effect Radius: 8m, Trigger: When Invisible person enters area (17 Active Points); Only to create image of invisible person for targetting (-1) 8 RP

Detect Invisible People, Unusual Sense Group (5 Active Points); Linked to Images (-1/2), Unified Power (-1/4) 3 RP

Except the rules tell us that "The circumstance that activates a Triggered power must be easily verifiable, and cannot depend on any Senses the character does not possess — characters cannot use Trigger as a cheap way to detect phenomena they could not ordinarily perceive."

6e Vol 1 p 350

 

That forces the question of what "Detect Invisible People" actually means. I guess an invisible elephant won't crush any crystals. Will a person who is Invisible to mental senses, or to cameras (many modern vampire updates) crunch the crystals? Is "invisible people" only a 5 point Detect? Without the SFX of the ability, it's tough to say. As a Fantasy spell "anyone who enters this area is covered in shiny glowing sparkles" seems a reasonable spell, so it's only pricing that becomes an issue.

 

BTW, Unified Power has to be taken on multiple abilities - what is it Unified with? I don't know that I would allow it to combine with Linked unless it is also taken on abilities not part of the Link.

 

As I see it, the Images affect a targeting sense (10 points) and must handle multiple interacting images (6 points). It doesn't need PER roll penalties - we're not trying to fool anyone. It needs +1/2 for AoE, and that Trigger has one defined condition (+1/4), which takes no time to activate (+1/4) and resets automatically(assuming a second person entering the area would also get an image, so 1/2 more). So that's 16 AP x 2.5 = 40 AP.

 

The Detect has a -2 limitation (the Trigger rules note this), and 5 points as the base seems reasonable. It also needs modifiers, I believe, like Range (5 points), 360 degrees (5 points), Sense (2 points) and, as we will put an image over the target, I suggest Targeting (10 points).

 

Now, if we want the image to move around with the target, doesn't that need a form of Usable as an Attack?

 

I think this power is a lot more expensive than the quote suggests. Perhaps Suppressing or Dispelling Invisibility would be a more efficient mechanism. It certainly seems the more straightforward approach. But it's also a lot more sophisticated than crunchy crystals set off by touch.

[kukuli]

 

 

Except the rules tell us that "The circumstance that activates a Triggered power must be easily verifiable, and cannot depend on any Senses the character does not possess — characters cannot use Trigger as a cheap way to detect phenomena they could not ordinarily perceive."

6e Vol 1 p 350

 

That forces the question of what "Detect Invisible People" actually means. I guess an invisible elephant won't crush any crystals. Will a person who is Invisible to mental senses, or to cameras (many modern vampire updates) crunch the crystals? Is "invisible people" only a 5 point Detect? Without the SFX of the ability, it's tough to say. As a Fantasy spell "anyone who enters this area is covered in shiny glowing sparkles" seems a reasonable spell, so it's only pricing that becomes an issue.

 

The weight of an elephant can be percieved by ordinary means. The touch group. The sound of the crystals can  be percieved by ordinary hearing. An Invisible person can be percieved by hearing by default, if he makes a sound or touch, if he touches someone. And the senses used are almost universal. This power isn't using trigger to detect invisability directly, it is causing a physical presence to crush crystals, creating an alarm sound. Any physical presence will do, it's just more useful for invisable creatures. Invisability cannot, by the rules, mimic desolidification and not trigger this kind of trap.

[eepjr24]

The weight of an elephant can be percieved by ordinary means. The touch group. The sound of the crystals can  be percieved by ordinary hearing. An Invisible person can be percieved by hearing by default, if he makes a sound or touch, if he touches someone. And the senses used are almost universal. This power isn't using trigger to detect invisability directly, it is causing a physical presence to crush crystals, creating an alarm sound. Any physical presence will do, it's just more useful for invisable creatures. Invisability cannot, by the rules, mimic desolidification and not trigger this kind of trap.

I would argue that the touch group would need Ranged at least on it to be useful here. Hearing would be fine if the Invisibility did not cover sound. 

 

I agree on the rest.

[Hugh Neilson]

The weight of an elephant can be percieved by ordinary means. The touch group. The sound of the crystals can  be percieved by ordinary hearing. An Invisible person can be percieved by hearing by default, if he makes a sound or touch, if he touches someone. And the senses used are almost universal. This power isn't using trigger to detect invisability directly, it is causing a physical presence to crush crystals, creating an alarm sound. Any physical presence will do, it's just more useful for invisable creatures. Invisability cannot, by the rules, mimic desolidification and not trigger this kind of trap.

I quite agree that the weight of the elephant can be used as a trigger to create the sound of crunching crystals. If the power were a blast of crystals at high velocity, I'd likely allow something walking over them to create a crunching sound after a battle as well, simply as SFX, so I have no problem with the CE: Anyone walking over the crystals needs to make a Stealth roll (at whatever penalty" or make a very audible CRUNCH sound as the crystals crunch.

 

But that is not the build eepjr proposed, He proposed an Image overlaid over the invisible creature, triggered by "Detect Invisible People". Elephants are not people. A levitating wizard is a person, and would trigger the build eepjr proposed, but he would not step on a field of crunchy crystals. An invisible man running over those crunchy crystals would likely not be noticed if there was already a visible elephant crunching through them, but he would be outlined in an image by eepjr's build.

[Hugh Neilson]

I would argue that the touch group would need Ranged at least on it to be useful here.

I disagree. The Trigger can be set, and the character can walk away. The Sense does not need to actually roll a PER roll for the Trigger to go off (if it did, that Detect would be much less reliable in setting off the Target Image power you suggested upthread), and the sight-based Trigger will still go off, even if the character who set it has left the room, and is presently Flashed in a Darkness field. Given that, I don't see the Touch sensation needing to be Ranged (nor did I see your Detect needing to be ranged), as it is the location of the Trigger, not the character, which must be affected by the sense.

 

Hearing would be fine if the Invisibility did not cover sound.

I'd be looking to SFX here. Rubber soled shoes might allow running to be IPE, but it would not prevent the crystals being crushed underfoot. A force screen that cancels sound vibrations while bending light around the character? That should cancel out the CRUNCH. Interaction with the environment is very much SFX based.

[Surrealone]

I quite agree that the weight of the elephant can be used as a trigger to create the sound of crunching crystals. If the power were a blast of crystals at high velocity, I'd likely allow something walking over them to create a crunching sound after a battle as well, simply as SFX, so I have no problem with the CE: Anyone walking over the crystals needs to make a Stealth roll (at whatever penalty" or make a very audible CRUNCH sound as the crystals crunch.

Even if the person walking over them had Invisibility to the touch sense group (in addition to sight, hearing, etc.)?  I ask this weight-based pressure on the crystals translates to a touch sensation (it's certainly none of the others)... and invis to touch means no levying of pressure on the crystals.  I'd think that's no Stealth roll for someone with Invis to touch...

[eepjr24]

Even if the person walking over them had Invisibility to the touch sense group (in addition to sight, hearing, etc.)?  I ask this weight-based pressure on the crystals translates to a touch sensation (it's certainly none of the others)... and invis to touch means no levying of pressure on the crystals.  I'd think that's no Stealth roll for someone with Invis to touch...

6e2, 239

Characters should not normally buy Invisibility to the Touch Sense Group; simulate that ability with Desolidification.)

[Surrealone]

Key words, "should not normally".  Thus, my inquiry still stands -- since it's possible and does have its place.  (I'm quite interested in the answer, too, since our 5er game has invis to touch used within it by one character.)

[eepjr24]

So, if your GM allows invisibility to touch he would have to define that interaction, since it would not normally be present. 

[Christopher]

But that is not the build eepjr proposed, He proposed an Image overlaid over the invisible creature, triggered by "Detect Invisible People". Elephants are not people. A levitating wizard is a person, and would trigger the build eepjr proposed, but he would not step on a field of crunchy crystals. An invisible man running over those crunchy crystals would likely not be noticed if there was already a visible elephant crunching through them, but he would be outlined in an image by eepjr's build.

The basic Idea is I think from a D&D spell. Faerie Fire:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Faerie_Fire

I also think that translating it to hero simply does not work. Senses (and Sesne Affecting Powers/Spells) operate way to differently to translate it.

 

I'd be looking to SFX here. Rubber soled shoes might allow running to be IPE, but it would not prevent the crystals being crushed underfoot. A force screen that cancels sound vibrations while bending light around the character? That should cancel out the CRUNCH. Interaction with the environment is very much SFX based.

I am not a fan of "SFX interaction". For learning a language I realised: "It is never the rules that cause issues, it is always the exceptions."

This applies to a RPG ruleset too, I think.

 

The simplest way around invisibility/darkness is simply another (not covered) sense group. With independant senses as the ultimative, nearly impossibly to affect fallback "group". How about:

"Ranged for Normal Touch, 5 Base Cost; Usable by Nearby(+1), 10 AP; Only stuff touching the surface (-?), also affected as Hearing (-0), Side Effect(Sense benefits enimies too)".

What the Power will detect is the enemy stepping onto the surface.

It will transmit that information to everyone nearby, via hearing. However invisibility(Hearing Group) would not counter it (hence a -0).

However the power also works against the users (group) - invisibile allies walking on it trigger it just as well, so the enemies benefit from it. Not to mention they at least know they have been detected.

Idealy we would want the "enemy can use it too when in range" to be rolled into UBN. A UBN variant with "beneficial power affects enemies within range too".

but I do not know how to do that.

Maybe AoE would be a better match then UBN in this case, as it naturally works against allies in the area.

 

Key words, "should not normally".  Thus, my inquiry still stands -- since it's possible and does have its place.  (I'm quite interested in the answer, too, since our 5er game has invis to touch used within it by one character.)

 

So, if your GM allows invisibility to touch he would have to define that interaction, since it would not normally be present. 

More then once i said that I think Invisibility (Touch Group) could be a valid build for a "Trackless Step" build.

Wich should also protect you from making noise from taht Crystall, allow you to not trigger vibration sensors and mines, etc.

It of course does not protect you from being "felt" by the Chraracter themself. Just from remote sensing. So Triggers and maybe range on Sense/Clairsentience only.

 

In the film "Remo Willians: The Adventure Begins" the character does learn how to learn without leaving tracks. Inlcuding not leaving tracks while walkin on wet beachsand, one of the most easily indented surfaces.