Crunchy Ground

[eepjr24]

In the film "Remo Willians: The Adventure Begins" the character does learn how to learn without leaving tracks. Inlcuding not leaving tracks while walkin on wet beachsand, one of the most easily indented surfaces.

His teacher also uses the same power to run on water. Both of those strike me as mystical, not the more traditionally thought of "trackless stride" which invloved knowing where to step to not break twigs, disturb leaves, leave foot prints. Or the Kung Fu "walk the rice paper" trick.

 

- E

[dsatow]

Personally, I'd recommend triggered images.

 

As for the using trigger as a sense, I would like to put in my vote on the its okay side because

1) the person invisible could also have invisibility to touch which would not trigger the effect, fly/glide over the area which would not trigger the effect, even buy teleport must pass though the area which may or may not trigger then effect but the person would be across already.

2) Landmines are created with trigger touch, why can't the power?

[Tasha]

His teacher also uses the same power to run on water. Both of those strike me as mystical, not the more traditionally thought of "trackless stride" which invloved knowing where to step to not break twigs, disturb leaves, leave foot prints. Or the Kung Fu "walk the rice paper" trick.

 

- E

Both tricks have been written up in System genre books as flight only in contact with surface.

[bigdamnhero]

"characters cannot use Trigger as a cheap way to detect phenomena they could not ordinarily perceive."

That's pretty clearly worded. You can claim it's a Touch Group thing all you want, but unless you would give the character a Touch PER Roll to notice an approaching invisible ninja if they didn't have the power active, then you're using the Trigger to turn a non-sensory power into a sensory power which is clearly against both letter and spirit of the Trigger rules.

 

Don't get me wrong: I have no problem with bending, folding, spindling and/or outright mutilating RAW when needed if that's the only way to achieve the desired effect. But there are several simpler ways to do the same thing that work better, aren't terribly expensive, and don't violate RAW. Either call it a Detect or Enhanced Perception or just Change Environment.

[Hugh Neilson]

First off, I would say a pressure sensor does not detect someone invisible to touch, so that someone would also exert no pressure on the crystals, and they would not go CRUNCH. That is consistent with the Trigger using touch to be triggered.
 

That's pretty clearly worded. You can claim it's a Touch Group thing all you want, but unless you would give the character a Touch PER Roll to notice an approaching invisible ninja if they didn't have the power active, then you're using the Trigger to turn a non-sensory power into a sensory power which is clearly against both letter and spirit of the Trigger rules.
 
Don't get me wrong: I have no problem with bending, folding, spindling and/or outright mutilating RAW when needed if that's the only way to achieve the desired effect. But there are several simpler ways to do the same thing that work better, aren't terribly expensive, and don't violate RAW. Either call it a Detect or Enhanced Perception or just Change Environment.

I would certainly give the character a Touch PER roll to detect an approaching ninja who steps on the character, just as I would rule that a Triggered explosion whose trigger is a sight-based laser detection grid explodes even if the character who set the trigger is in another room with his eyes closed.  The character does not have to detect the Triggering phenomenon - the power itself, or more specifically its Trigger, has to detect it.

[bigdamnhero]

True dat - the character doesn't have to be in the room, but they have to generally be able to detect it if they were in the room, had their eyes open, etc.

[Manic Typist]

That's pretty clearly worded. You can claim it's a Touch Group thing all you want, but unless you would give the character a Touch PER Roll to notice an approaching invisible ninja if they didn't have the power active, then you're using the Trigger to turn a non-sensory power into a sensory power which is clearly against both letter and spirit of the Trigger rules.

 

Don't get me wrong: I have no problem with bending, folding, spindling and/or outright mutilating RAW when needed if that's the only way to achieve the desired effect. But there are several simpler ways to do the same thing that work better, aren't terribly expensive, and don't violate RAW. Either call it a Detect or Enhanced Perception or just Change Environment.

I would definitely give a PC a roll to detect a ninja with Invisibility: Hearing Group sneaking up on them if they were walking along the same floor. I've frequently felt people walked up behind me even if I hadn't noticed them.

 

Also, the wording says "characters cannot use Trigger as a cheap way to detect phenomena they could not ordinarily perceive." To me (and please correct me since I haven't read the Sense section in a long time), that means you couldn't do this to detect something that the character couldn't perceive even without invisibility being involved. I can NORMALLY perceive the sound of someone walking on crunchy objects - it's the Invisibility in this case that makes the situation abnormal.

 

It would be odd, even, to suggest that there is a situation in which it is normal for a PC to detect something that is Invisible. Not impossible, but... it would get a double take from me.

[Tasha]

That's pretty clearly worded. You can claim it's a Touch Group thing all you want, but unless you would give the character a Touch PER Roll to notice an approaching invisible ninja if they didn't have the power active, then you're using the Trigger to turn a non-sensory power into a sensory power which is clearly against both letter and spirit of the Trigger rules.

 

Don't get me wrong: I have no problem with bending, folding, spindling and/or outright mutilating RAW when needed if that's the only way to achieve the desired effect. But there are several simpler ways to do the same thing that work better, aren't terribly expensive, and don't violate RAW. Either call it a Detect or Enhanced Perception or just Change Environment.

 

Remember that Invisibility vs Touch isn't supposed to be allowed. "(Characters should not normally buy Invisibility to the Touch Sense Group; simulate that ability with Desolidification.)" Because it causes this sort of weird edge case. Because Invis vs touch sets up some weird situations, ie why can't I feel when the invisible person hits me or touches me with an attack?. 

 

So you are all arguing about an edge case that a GM really shouldn't be allowing.

[Christopher]

Remember that Invisibility vs Touch isn't supposed to be allowed. "(Characters should not normally buy Invisibility to the Touch Sense Group; simulate that ability with Desolidification.)" Because it causes this sort of weird edge case. Because Invis vs touch sets up some weird situations, ie why can't I feel when the invisible person hits me or touches me with an attack?.

Except everyone agrees that Invisibiltiy Touch would NOT work that way. It get's you around Triggers and Tracking (the broken twigs and leaves kind) tops. You are trying to find a flaw, that was never in the idea.

[Tasha]

Except everyone agrees that Invisibiltiy Touch would NOT work that way. It get's you around Triggers and Tracking (the broken twigs and leaves kind) tops. You are trying to find a flaw, that was never in the idea.

Does it get around broken twigs and rustling through leaves? The writeup in Invisibility doesn't give much about being invis vs touch. Just to say that you should be doing it with Desolid. Not sure how Invis makes you somehow weightless. Can you find the rule in RAW that backs up your claim or is this just on the boards houseruling?

[Christopher]

Does it get around broken twigs and rustling through leaves? The writeup in Invisibility doesn't give much about being invis vs touch. Just to say that you should be doing it with Desolid. Not sure how Invis makes you somehow weightless. Can you find the rule in RAW that backs up your claim or is this just on the boards houseruling?

We already establish 5 times over that this is in GM allowance territory. Indeed, you just did 1 post ago.

Wich is why everyone talking about using Invisibilty (Touch) to simulate Trackless step/avoiding landmines was pretty clear it does not work in the extreme case (touching the target) you had an issue with:

 

More then once i said that I think Invisibility (Touch Group) could be a valid build for a "Trackless Step" build.

Wich should also protect you from making noise from taht Crystall, allow you to not trigger vibration sensors and mines, etc.

It of course does not protect you from being "felt" by the Chraracter themself. Just from remote sensing. So Triggers and maybe range on Sense/Clairsentience only.

 

 

Both tricks have been written up in System genre books as flight only in contact with surface.

That application of the Remo Williams trick does not work but it does bring us back to the "Invisibility (Touch Group)" example:

"He leaves tracks, if the surface is sof and durable enough to take them." - Only in contact with Surface limitation.

However:

"If a character has Flight Only In Contact With A Surface (see below), Invisible Power Effects can be bought at the +¼ level so that he doesn’t leave tracks, set off seismic alarms, or the like" - IPE limition on Flight.

 

IPE has this to say:

"Most powers can be perceived by two Sense

Groups when they’re in use (see Sensing Powers

And Special Effects, 6E1 124). Characters can buy

the Invisible Power Effects Advantage (“IPE”) to

conceal some or all aspects of the perceivability of

a power.

You should use common sense and dramatic

sense when deciding whether Invisible Power

Effects is applicable to a Power, and if so how it

functions. For example, a character shouldn’t try

to make a Movement Power Invisible to the Sight

Group, since it’s always going to be obvious to

onlookers that he’s moved from Point A to Point B.

But he could make it Invisible to Hearing Group

so that he moves silently"

"If a Power is Inobvious, it can typically be

perceived by two Sense Groups (Sight and one

other) when in use, and sometimes the GM may

require a character to succeed with a PER Roll to

perceive it. To make the Power “invisible” (imperceivable) to one of those Sense Group is a +¼

Advantage; to make it Fully Invisible (“invisible”

to both) is a +½ Advantage."

 

So I took it as a given that the "IPE for not triggering Seismic Sensor or Leaving Tracks while using Only in Contact with Surface Flight(+1/4)" is defined as "IPE (Touch Sense Group, Inobvious to fully invisibile).

How would you define Seismic Alarms if not as Touch Group Sense?

 

I think I must also clarify I that am not a friend of using Triggered Images for this power build.

If it was some random Image that plays (like a D&D magic mouth)? Sure, not an issue.

But a hearing image specifically designed to get around Invisibilty (Hearing Group) on the person triggering it? Nope.

A generalised alarm spell that triggers for anything in the area is not the same as a triggered Images that tracks the person triggering it. And produces sounds he is explicitly immune agaisnt making.

[Hugh Neilson]

I think I must also clarify I that am not a friend of using Triggered Images for this power build.

If it was some random Image that plays (like a D&D magic mouth)? Sure, not an issue.

 

But a hearing image specifically designed to get around Invisibilty (Hearing Group) on the person triggering it? Nope.

A generalised alarm spell that triggers for anything in the area is not the same as a triggered Images that tracks the person triggering it. And produces sounds he is explicitly immune agaisnt making.

So a Magic Mouth that says, say, "Welcome, friend" whenever someone steps on the ground within an 8 meter radius is OK, but a crystal that goes CRUNCH underfoot in the same area is not? I don't think either invalidates the Invisibility. He is not easily targeted, nor is his precise location immediately obvious. Only his presence has been detected. And if a half dozen visible people are also crunching along, I don't think it even achieves that as the extra sound is not really detectable.

 

I'm not married to the "triggered images" model - really, we're trying to simulate a change to the environment, so that imposed Stealth roll with CE may be the better answer.

 

In another thread it is suggested that we could locate an individual who is Invisible to sight by watching the footprints he leaves within the crunchy leaves, but that invisibility to hearing would cover up their crunch underfoot. Why is that OK, but an individual Invisible to hearing would not cause the leaves to make a CRUNCH sound by which his presence could be detected? It seems like both use indirect cues related to the sense to which the individual is directly Invisible.

[bigdamnhero]

I would definitely give a PC a roll to detect a ninja with Invisibility: Hearing Group sneaking up on them if they were walking along the same floor. I've frequently felt people walked up behind me even if I hadn't noticed them.

Some chance sure, and the Fringe rules already address this. Tho if every character gets a full PRE Roll (which even most mooks have at least 11-) to notice invisible characters, then you have pretty-much nerfed the whole concept of Invisibility. And conversely if your position is the character already gets a chance to detect the Invisible Ninja, then the effect IMO should be to provide bonuses/penalties to that roll rather than to create an artificial (and RAW-dodgy) construct to duplicate that roll.

 

Also, the wording says "characters cannot use Trigger as a cheap way to detect phenomena they could not ordinarily perceive." To me (and please correct me since I haven't read the Sense section in a long time), that means you couldn't do this to detect something that the character couldn't perceive even without invisibility being involved. I can NORMALLY perceive the sound of someone walking on crunchy objects - it's the Invisibility in this case that makes the situation abnormal.

Here's the relevant text from the Trigger rules:

 

The circumstance that activates a Triggered power must be easily verifiable, and cannot depend on any Senses the character does not possess — characters cannot use Trigger as a cheap way to detect phenomena they could not ordinarily perceive. (If the character wants to create a Trigger that has special Senses, he can buy these specifically for use with one Triggered power for a -2 Limitation, or with any Triggered power for a -1 Limitation.)

[6e1 p350, emphasis added]

I guess you could interpret that wording to mean "any character has at least some chance to detect an invisible character, therefore using a Trigger to do so is okay." But then why even include this rule? Someone can Ask Steve if they want an official answer, but to me the purpose seems pretty clearly that you shouldn't use Trigger as a way to get around sensory limitation or to turn a non-sensory power into a sensory power.

 

Remember that Invisibility vs Touch isn't supposed to be allowed.

...

So you are all arguing about an edge case that a GM really shouldn't be allowing.

Agreed. But I was also addressing the idea that using Trigger as a back-door Detect was okay here because they're defining it as touch-based and the character has Touch sense.

 

Only his presence has been detected.

Sure sounds to me like Detect is the effect and the image - whether magic mouth or crunchy crystals - is the sfx.

[Manic Typist]

Some chance sure, and the Fringe rules already address this. Tho if every character gets a full PRE Roll (which even most mooks have at least 11-) to notice invisible characters, then you have pretty-much nerfed the whole concept of Invisibility. And conversely if your position is the character already gets a chance to detect the Invisible Ninja, then the effect IMO should be to provide bonuses/penalties to that roll rather than to create an artificial (and RAW-dodgy) construct to duplicate that roll.

Yeah, I'm thinking a -4 to detect (-6 if No Fringe). Just like I might notice the lighting situation change because the ninja had stepped between a light source and myself (amateur move), or smelling the ninja. It's a subtle thing, but noticeable. That's how I've always treated it - Invisibility is very useful, but at close range it's not perfect. If you want that, buy Invisibility to every Sense Group you can.

[Hugh Neilson]

Sure sounds to me like Detect is the effect and the image - whether magic mouth or crunchy crystals - is the sfx.

I see that as one interpretation. But then, should we get rid of the Transmit modifier for senses? Why can't you just make your sense Usable by Others? Here, I see quite a few differences between creating an environment that makes noise and a Detect power. Off the cuff:

 

- I need Usable by Everyone Else in the Area (even people I may not know are in the area, or people who come after I set up the field, with those leaving losing the Detect, and even if I myself Megascale Teleport or Extra Dimensionally move away). Even if I'm open to UBO for the build, it will become very expensive to give it megascale range, the potential to affect hundreds of people and the Transdimensional advantage.

 

- I would have to limit it somehow - if there are a bunch of people in the area crunching around, who will notice an invisible one making a few crunches of his own?

 

- My Detect stops working if I can't hear - that just means I need to base it on Hearing - except my hearing works to here things outside the area of the crunchy crystals, and this Detect does not.

 

To the question of detection through the vibrations in the floor, I am inclined to agree that, in most cases, this is simply the Fringe - you are close enough to detect the Ninja through these vibrations. No Fringe seems to indicate a stilling of vibrations, doesn't it? Those vibrations are, I suspect, making a sound. It is simply a sound so slight that we lack any possibility of Detecting it.

[bigdamnhero]

That's how I've always treated it - Invisibility is very useful, but at close range it's not perfect. If you want that, buy Invisibility to every Sense Group you can.

Right, and/or No Fringe. I agree.

 

I see that as one interpretation. But then, should we get rid of the Transmit modifier for senses?

I beg you not to open that can of worms again! That was one of the wonkiest threads in recent memory, and IMO was almost completely driven by "what would this do" rather than "how would we do this?" In that sense, it is kindof like this thread effect seems to be taking a back door to sfx and strange mechanical combinations that supplant existing Powers. 

 

But I do agree with your points about the cost problem with using Detect. That's actually why I suggested Change Environment to force a Stealth Roll at -X.

[Hugh Neilson]

I like the CE approach as well - I think it is an easier means of achieving the same result. However, it does not resolve the "Invisible to Sound" question, does it?

 

Ultimately, it is an unusual ability, and care needs to be taken to get a cost that is not excessive for the value of the power.