Cost of HA

[Hugh Neilson]

No, it just makes the other techniques too expensive.  HA isn't competing against limited skill levels.  It's competing against raw Str.

 

It's competing against every other method of adding damage. A DC has the same effect no matter how it is obtained. If all an ability does is add 1 DC, its cost should be the same as other methods of only adding that same DC.

 

The points system only works in a rough sense.  Now the system is way better at creating balance than say, D&D, where Bob rolls straight 18s for stats and Steve rolls so low that he doesn't qualify for any class at all.

That's why most d20 games I see now use the point-buy system for stats introduced in 3e Still rolling for hit points, though.

 

On the overall effect of whether STR costs enough, I've never found it a problem in games.  Neither have I found HA too pricy.

 

Why?  Because a person buying hand attack has a concept in mind and doesn't want to make his characters super strong.  Its one of the few times players will do the less cost effective thing for pure concept.  Is it cheaper and more versatile to create a staff as +15 extra strength?  Yes, but I don't think Robin the Boy Wonder should be able to tip over a car with a flick of his staff.

I think Robin the Boy Wonder should then pay less for his staff than Cyborg pays for his STR that can do everything the staff can AND tip over a car. Hence a HA limitation.

 

I think you can argue the ins and outs of the SFX for additional HA til you are blue in the face but I know at least one of my players who would argue that he paid for the effect and he expects to get the value for it.  :-)

And I think that's fair. Viewed from another angle, charging Robin the full STR price for a staff that does not have the full STR benefits incents Cyborg's Brick build, since he spends the same points and gets more. I will suggest we have limitations specifically for concepts whose abilities are more limited, so they will pay less as well as get less. It's also in concept that Green Arrow's bow has range, but Shocker's ShockGloves do not. Should Shocker be required to pay the same 5 points per DC as GA, since his lack of range is just a logical extrapolation of his concept?

 

In Hero, you get what you pay for, not what you can rationalize from logical extrapolation. Or at least I consider that a core precept of the Hero system.

[bigdamnhero]

But people have already given that example, any Power with accessible focus or restrainable qualifies.

 

Approach this from a different angle, the brass knuckles punch just as hard against glass or cloth or even glue for that matter. The difference lies in the properties of the item being struck. Force dispersed  rather than force delivered.

I'm not talking about accessibility or restrainability - any one of those examples could just as easily be built with IAF or no Focus at all. And I get your point about the punch being the same regardless of what's being punched. But if you're Entangled in webbing, net, cable, whatever, are you actually punching your way out? Or are you using brute strength, flexing your muscles to power through it? That sounds much more akin to Lifting STR or Grabbing/Squeezing STR than punching STR to me.

 

I did post an Ask Steve question just to clarify the official RAW answer.

 

I think you can argue the ins and outs of the SFX for additional HA til you are blue in the face but I know at least one of my players who would argue that he paid for the effect and he expects to get the value for it.  :-)

Which is a totally fair point of view. As stated above, I tend to treat sfx as sometimes it can help you, sometimes it can hurt you, and as long as those two roughly balance out it's not necessarily worth an Adv/Lim. But that depends on your individual Player-GM contract.

 

I know that I would rather pull a cord using something hard (like brass knuckles) rather than have it bite into my skin.  I can apply more strength that way.  I might also rule that the implement has a sharper edge somewhere on it that might be used to better abraid the entangle.

Hmmm...yeah, I'll buy that!

[Christopher R Taylor]

I know that I would rather pull a cord using something hard (like brass knuckles) rather than have it bite into my skin.  I can apply more strength that way.  I might also rule that the implement has a sharper edge somewhere on it that might be used to better abraid the entangle.

 

Indeed, and for most superheroic games, that's good enough for the win.  That's the joy of comic books, it doesn't always have to make sense.  It just has to fit the genre an be fun and exciting.  Who cares if it makes sense that yellow blocks Green Lantern?  That's how his powers work.  We need more of that and less "I figured this out scientifically to the last minutae" in gaming, I think.

[Christopher]

Fair point. A lot depends on exactly how something is built; a standard HA adds to Grabs or escapes from Grabs, so makes sense it should also work against Entangles. If it's built as just adding to punches, then not so much. My usual approach is to toss stuff like this to the player: "Okay, explain how your brass knuckles help you break out of this webbing?" If the player can come up with something vaguely plausible and genre-appropriate, fine. If not, then sorry but nope.

Requesting a player to come up with something like this on the spot seems unfair to me.

 

In a discussion about another RPG system (Space Hero level), I was once asked to describe "how I scan for lifeforms". I could come up with some explanataions (as I knew to lore quite well), however I also pointed out the question was entirely unfair. Another player would have been hosed in teh same situation. And that asumes I could have even come up with that during an actually playsession, rather then on a discussion (totally different mindesets, answering times and mental loads).

It translates player knowledge into character knowledge. That my character knows "how to scan for lifeforms" is part of him having the apropirate stats and skills.

 

The same applies to any combat knowledge. My character is a fighter. He propably knows how to use those Brash Knuckles to break out of entangle.

I am confident of that because of what little I learned about wielding a real weapon. Fighters use every part of thier weapon and body in a fight to win. They might do stuff me would find at the moment find utterly non-intuitive and utterly obvious in hindsight.

Certain situations made it viable tactic to survival nessesary to hit the enemy with the pommel of a twohanded sword. Literally the last part I would try to hit someone with when wielding such a weapon. Yet also utterly sensical and obvious in retrospect. Would propably have gotten the same idea if I was in the same situation (luckily melee fighting with swords is not that common anymore).

[massey]

Special effects are important in situations like this. Not just of the attack, but of the Entangle as well.

 

For instance, brass knuckles may not be helpful in breaking out of Spidey's webbing. But I bet you could make a contortionist roll or something to help you escape. You're basically tied up with some kind of sticky rope. On the other hand, contortionist won't help you get out of one of Green Lantern's energy bubbles. But I do think you'd be able to use brass knuckles to bash your way out.

[bigdamnhero]

Indeed, and for most superheroic games, that's good enough for the win.  That's the joy of comic books, it doesn't always have to make sense.  It just has to fit the genre an be fun and exciting.  Who cares if it makes sense that yellow blocks Green Lantern?  That's how his powers work.  We need more of that and less "I figured this out scientifically to the last minutae" in gaming, I think.

I tend to agree, but I'd say it also depends on genre and on what type of game experience you're looking for. I've played (and run) several games that strove for more realism - say more Bourne Identity and less Austin Powers - and had a lot of fun. If it's not your cup of tea, that's fine.

 

Requesting a player to come up with something like this on the spot seems unfair to me.

[shrug] Depends on your players I guess - mine always seem to enjoy it when given that sort of opportunity. It's not like I'm asking them to come up with a cogent testable hypothesis for string theory or explain the proper procedures for handling nuclear weapons, just to give me some comic-book plausible-sounding way that X might be able to help with Y.

[bigdamnhero]

Steve's answer. Essentially, yes HA applies vs Entangles by default, but it depends on sfx. So basically what we've been saying.

[bigdamnhero]

It's not like I'm asking them to...explain the proper procedures for handling nuclear weapons...

Apologies for quoting myself, but I just remembered that the one time this actually came up in game, I had not one but two players who had in fact worked on nukes, and really enjoyed roleplaying the proper procedures. (Their PCs wouldn't necessarily have that character knowledge, but they'd had an opportunity to do the research so we just went with it.)

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

My thing about HA is that a lot of powers that you make cannot be done with HA. 

 

Think about the classic gauntlet. Normally built as a HA with restrainable and OIF. How would you model this without it? Limited STR? You are using the same thing. HTH Killing? Maybe for a spiked gauntlet, but not for gauntlet. Damage Classes? That is a Martial Maneuver DC or Deadly Blow.

 

I have always thought of HA as this.

 

5 STR with a -1 Point Adder "Cannot Be Used Alone" Drained Seperately (+1/4) (5 APs) Only to Increase Damage Done By STR Based Normal Attacks (-1/4) 4 RPs. 

 

 

EDIT: Plus you add a +0 Advantage to Switch From PD to ED. 

Edited September 30, 2016 by JohnnyAppleseed098

[Christopher]

My thing about HA is that a lot of powers that you make cannot be done with HA. 

 

Think about the classic gauntlet. Normally built as a HA with restrainable and OIF. How would you model this without it? Limited STR? You are using the same thing. HTH Killing? Maybe for a spiked gauntlet, but not for gauntlet. Damage Classes? That is a Martial Maneuver DC or Deadly Blow.

 

I have always thought of HA as this.

 

5 STR with a -1 Point Adder "Cannot Be Used Alone" Drained Seperately (+1/4) (5 APs) Only to Increase Damage Done By STR Based Normal Attacks (-1/4) 4 RPs. 

 

 

EDIT: Plus you add a +0 Advantage to Switch From PD to ED. 

I think you might have some skipped words in there. I can not make sense out of "a lot of powers that you make cannot be done with HA."

Well I can not make a lot of builds out of Duplication either. There is only so many ways how a Sheep can Clone itself. That is why we got so many different powers

[Hugh Neilson]

I have always thought of HA as this.

 

5 STR with a -1 Point Adder "Cannot Be Used Alone" Drained Seperately (+1/4) (5 APs) Only to Increase Damage Done By STR Based Normal Attacks (-1/4) 4 RPs. 

 

 

EDIT: Plus you add a +0 Advantage to Switch From PD to ED.

Practically, however, we are right back to assessing the appropriate value of "Only to Increase Damage Done By STR Based Normal Attacks", which you set at -1/4 above. Apparently, it is -1/4 to enhance the damage and effect of all Martial Arts maneuvers, as MA DCs cost 4 points. What is the value of "only to enhance the effect of STR based maneuvers", such that it also improves Disarm, Grab, etc.? It seems like that would be a lesser limitation, so perhaps that should be -1/4 and "only increases normal damage of STR based maneuvers" should be -1/2. Those values pass the "gut feel" test, at least for me.

 

They also end the question of what the limitation for "only for enhancing the effect of non-Martial STR based maneuvers" should be. If you don't have Martial Arts, it seems not limiting at all. But the prospect I can buy Martial maneuvers and now it IS limiting, perhaps saving more than the 10 points I invest in such maneuvers, seems problematic. If we apply the limitation to STR on the basis that either "only normal damage STR based attacks" are augmented (-1/2), or "all STR based attacks" are augmented (-1/4), then the issue goes away. You paid for the martial maneuvers, and you need not pay again to have your limited STR work with them, any more than you would be required to pay extra to have your unlimited STR work with them.