New powers that you think would simplify Hero

[TheDarkness]

Sure there are.  It's an attack, with linked flight usable against others.  Easy.

It would have to have, darnit, I'm forgetting the name of the advantage and I'm not near my book. It's often used for poison, for simulating a delayed return rate. So that velocity is added, up to a maximum. But the important part is something to hit at the end.

 

I'm a little afraid of Cantriped now. That's a devious power. Like a gravity controlling one. Kind of cool thought.

 

And here I was trying to stay on the light side.

[Cantriped]

instant acceleration

Blast 18d6 double knockback does no stun or body damage(KB only) indirect

 

Massey had a good one also

A powerful attack to be sure, but it doesn't come anywhere close to "reproducing the effects of the falling rules".

First off, gravity cannot be resisted by Knockback resistance, your attack power can be. Secondly this attack power goes off once per phase, gravity acts every segment. Thirdly, gravity accelerates at a fixed pace, your attack causes a varies number of meters of movement from phase to phase, which are either faster or slower than gravity depending upon the speed of the character using the power.

[Christopher R Taylor]

You mean like the Stunning Effect option for Change Environment that everyone hates?

 

And everyone hates it because?  It doesn't have any structure to build in resistance, probably doesn't belong in Change Environment, and the cost is questionable.  

 

So again a power that let you do things like knock someone down, stun them, tie them up for one phase, etc -- temporary, specific incapacitating effects -- that has a resistance or avoidance system designed in, and is independent of Change Environment could be the answer.

 

Gravity effects are difficult to simulate with Hero, it gets kind of complicated to get them to work the way you want.  That's an area that could be addressed.

[Beast]

It is only complex because your making complex
go with your first build

 

my first build would be to use reflection any any target close to you

and flavored by calling it an illusion
there is no guess work the attack goes where you want it to go

 

The funny thing in Hero is, there's so many darn ways to keep it simple that it gets complex.

 

I recall a thread about a power that made it appear that you were seven feet away from where you actually were.

 

The simplest build was, as I recall, DCV.

 

The simplest way to get that exact effect was invisibility and images(exact, as in, the most likely person to miss the real target and hit the false one is the person with the most accuracy, whereas DCV would have the opposite effect)

 

Which one makes sense totally depends. If you are making a villain to contest a marksman hero, the second build will probably last longer, if we're using that as the villain's main power. If not, the first will be more cost effective.

 

I try to look at the underlying game physics and look for the most appropriate way to build exactly what I'm trying to build, something that will behave like what I'm looking for.

[Cantriped]

And everyone hates it because?  It doesn't have any structure to build in resistance, probably doesn't belong in Change Environment, and the cost is questionable.  

 

So again a power that let you do things like knock someone down, stun them, tie them up for one phase, etc -- temporary, specific incapacitating effects -- that has a resistance or avoidance system designed in, and is independent of Change Environment could be the answer.

 

Gravity effects are difficult to simulate with Hero, it gets kind of complicated to get them to work the way you want.  That's an area that could be addressed.

Stunning is resisted by CON rolls, characters get a bonus the longer they remain under its effects, just like Mind Control & EGO.

 

 

It would have to have, darnit, I'm forgetting the name of the advantage and I'm not near my book. It's often used for poison, for simulating a delayed return rate. So that velocity is added, up to a maximum. But the important part is something to hit at the end.

 

I'm a little afraid of Cantriped now. That's a devious power. Like a gravity controlling one. Kind of cool thought.

 

And here I was trying to stay on the light side.

You are thinking of Damage Over Time, and that is a great idea: Usable As Attack, Damage Over Time Flight (60m), with a Limitation limiting it to 10m of acceleration per segment comes pretty darn close to covering the effects of Falling. Then link the Triggered Indirect Blast to that and you pretty much have "Gravity Manipulation" with a two-part co-linked compound power.

 

Speaking of scary, I once had a character with a 2km radius Darkness to every sense group as their "final weapon"... they were also invisible to every sense group, could flash every sense group simultaneously, and made duplicates with the same powers they had (minus the "final weapon" which deprived the character of all of their other powers while it recharged (1 charge/day).

[Beast]

on average it will move the target at a veloocity of 29d6
should I choose down the target will take 29d6(really your going to quibble about 1d6?)
flight UAA is actually weight based
so KBR defined as mass or gravity attraction would put a crimp on it as would growth and density increase
first rule of Hero NOTHING is absolute

 

A powerful attack to be sure, but it doesn't come anywhere close to "reproducing the effects of the falling rules".

First off, gravity cannot be resisted by Knockback resistance, your attack power can be. Secondly this attack power goes off once per phase, gravity acts every segment. Thirdly, gravity accelerates at a fixed pace, your attack causes a varies number of meters of movement from phase to phase, which are either faster or slower than gravity depending upon the speed of the character using the power.

[TheDarkness]

Not easy... not easy at all.

Linked Flight would need to be Usable As Attack, and still cannot accelerate or move the victim per segment unless the character using the power has a speed of 12. Because you cannot deal velocity based damage with a UAA Movement Power: the Linked attack would have to be able to dish out 30d6 of Blast, have Trigger so that it goes off when the victim strikes a surface, and have some form of Conditional limiting the actual damage dealt based on Velocity upon impact.

 

At the very least you are looking at three linked powers (UAA Flight, Limited SPD, and Limited Triggered Blast) with a huge number of active points and modifiers. At standard font and column sizes you are looking at a quarter of a page (or more) of game-elements to reproduce one "effect"

Oh, hadn't thought about the SPD issue. I suppose you could just buy enough movement for this crazy power to actually be equal to the distance to terminal velocity plus some, then take the extra time limitation on the use. That would get around the SPD issue for a gajillion points.

 

The damage, I see what you mean now. So that, also, has to be bought, and I see now that damage over time wouldn't really work, as it's spread evenly.

[TheDarkness]

It is only complex because your making complex

go with your first build

 

my first build would be to use reflection any any target close to you

and flavored by calling it an illusion

there is no guess work the attack goes where you want it to go

Reflection would be a good one, although it doesn't really feel like the description, does it? I mean, why would the attacks go back to the attacker given the described effect of the power? Or did you mean deflection?

 

As for the first build, DCV ONLY works if the goal is not to confound a marksman. Otherwise, the marksman becomes the only person to hit them. Whereas actually modelling the power as described, in this case, makes it so the marksman is highly likely to hit the illusion until they figure out what is going on.

 

So it totally depends on what the game goal is. IMO, sometimes, the exact effect is important, sometimes, the feel of the effect is all that's needed.

[Cantriped]

flight UAA is actually weight based

No it isn't, and neither is UAA Teleport. That is a common misconception regarding UAA Movement powers.

A Usable As Attack power makes the victim the "Self" instead of the power's user. You are "giving" them the movement power, and then "forcing" them to use it at your direction. It doesn't matter how much "you" weigh when "you" are flying for teleporting (because that would be unfair to characters who buy flight and growth/density increase), weight is only considered for what "you" are carrying.

Meaning you can purchase Additional Weight on a UAA Teleport and cause it to teleport the victim and X amount of mass the victim is holding... or you can make the UAA Attack Teleport an Area of Effect (and have everything in a radius...), or Sticky (and have everything touching the first victim...) also gain the power, and be forced to use it at your direction.

[massey]

Not easy... not easy at all.

Linked Flight would need to be Usable As Attack, and still cannot accelerate or move the victim per segment unless the character using the power has a speed of 12. Because you cannot deal velocity based damage with a UAA Movement Power: the Linked attack would have to be able to dish out 30d6 of Blast, have Trigger so that it goes off when the victim strikes a surface, and have some form of Conditional limiting the actual damage dealt based on Velocity upon impact.

 

At the very least you are looking at three linked powers (UAA Flight, Limited SPD, and Limited Triggered Blast) with a huge number of active points and modifiers. At standard font and column sizes you are looking at a quarter of a page (or more) of game-elements to reproduce one "effect"

 

"Usable against others" is the 4th edition name for "usable as attack".  And you don't need a Speed of 12 to get the effect you want.  Is the segmented movement really that important to duplicate?

 

I don't see why you'd be upset with having to take 30D6 of Blast.  You are trying to build a power that can do 30D6 of damage.  You get what you pay for.

[TheDarkness]

"Usable against others" is the 4th edition name for "usable as attack".  And you don't need a Speed of 12 to get the effect you want.  Is the segmented movement really that important to duplicate?

 

I don't see why you'd be upset with having to take 30D6 of Blast.  You are trying to build a power that can do 30D6 of damage.  You get what you pay for.

It's the fun of sending them careening. Will they careen long enough to take the full damage, or can they be saved?

 

This is exactly the sort of power that has a 'must be done to Lois Lane' clause in it. Sure, it won't end well for the villain, but that's not the point.

[massey]

Anytime you try to get a power to work exactly a certain way, you're going to spend more points than is necessary and make things more complicated than they need to be.  Look at the "falling" example from above.  There's an easy way to do it, where you buy an attack and a method to move your opponent, and you call it good.

 

Then there's the hard way, where you want to make sure that the distance they move perfectly matches the falling rules, segment by segment.  "Oh, I have to make sure that he falls on his Dex, so I need to buy limited Dex for my character, only to match target's Dex..."

 

A cinematic approximation of a power is fine for almost all purposes.  When you insist on making something mirror a particular mechanic, then yes it's going to be inefficient.  That's because you are spending points on making sure it works a particular way, instead of spending points to make sure the power is effective.

[Cantriped]

"Usable against others" is the 4th edition name for "usable as attack".  And you don't need a Speed of 12 to get the effect you want.  Is the segmented movement really that important to duplicate?

 

I don't see why you'd be upset with having to take 30D6 of Blast.  You are trying to build a power that can do 30D6 of damage.  You get what you pay for.

I started with 5th edition, so I wouldn't know... Furthermore these are the "HERO System Sixth Edition" forums (it says so right at the top of the screen). Unless noted otherwise I am assuming people are talking about the most recent edition of the game.

 

Yes, segmented movement is important if the goal is to duplicate the effects of gravity accurately; which is how I prefaced my original post on this topic. If the goal were merely to "produce a gravity-like effect", than any number of simpler power constructs could be used.

 

Finally, I am not upset at having to purchase a 30d6 Blast for a power that can do 30d6... However, having actually GMed for a character with true gravity manipulation (which I house-ruled in as a very... very expensive change environment), I can honestly say said player almost never actually did 30d6 damage with that power. To do so you would need the victim to spend 6 segments falling 210m or more in a straight line (so about 2 turns if you have them fall up, then back down the required distance). Most environments and combats didn't make that possible.

[Cantriped]

Anytime you try to get a power to work exactly a certain way, you're going to spend more points than is necessary and make things more complicated than they need to be.  Look at the "falling" example from above.  There's an easy way to do it, where you buy an attack and a method to move your opponent, and you call it good.

 

Then there's the hard way, where you want to make sure that the distance they move perfectly matches the falling rules, segment by segment.  "Oh, I have to make sure that he falls on his Dex, so I need to buy limited Dex for my character, only to match target's Dex..."

 

A cinematic approximation of a power is fine for almost all purposes.  When you insist on making something mirror a particular mechanic, then yes it's going to be inefficient.  That's because you are spending points on making sure it works a particular way, instead of spending points to make sure the power is effective.

 

You are correct, a cinematic approximation is fine for most purposes. My point is that if the game is going to be advertised as being able to reproduce "anything" as a rules construct, than it needs to actually be able to reproduce all of its own environmental effects as rules constructs.

[TheDarkness]

Anytime you try to get a power to work exactly a certain way, you're going to spend more points than is necessary and make things more complicated than they need to be.  Look at the "falling" example from above.  There's an easy way to do it, where you buy an attack and a method to move your opponent, and you call it good.

 

Then there's the hard way, where you want to make sure that the distance they move perfectly matches the falling rules, segment by segment.  "Oh, I have to make sure that he falls on his Dex, so I need to buy limited Dex for my character, only to match target's Dex..."

 

A cinematic approximation of a power is fine for almost all purposes.  When you insist on making something mirror a particular mechanic, then yes it's going to be inefficient.  That's because you are spending points on making sure it works a particular way, instead of spending points to make sure the power is effective.

I could actually see the cinematic appeal of it taking six segments to reach maximum speed, even if one didn't model the acceleration quite exactly, and by way of the extra time limitation, it would occur on all the segments until it was done. Odds are, the character would be saved or hit something long before reaching terminal velocity. In a city environment, we're talking, most commonly 5d6 damage.But, it would be ridiculously expensive.

[massey]

You are correct, a cinematic approximation is fine for most purposes. My point is that if the game is going to be advertised as being able to reproduce "anything" as a rules construct, than it needs to actually be able to reproduce all of its own environmental effects as rules constructs.

 

You just listed how to build it as a rules construct.  You could buy your Spd up to 12, buy your Dex high enough so that it matches the highest Dex available in the campaign, and buy an attack linked to Flight usable as attack, with limitations.  Or you can buy the maximum distance they "fall" in one phase, and put some limitations on it that it takes a while to build up to that level.

 

As I said, when your goal is to make sure a power works exactly a certain way, you're going to spend more points than it necessary.  At that point you aren't worried about effectiveness, you're worried about the purity of the simulation.  That's not a problem with the game.

[Cantriped]

It is a problem with the game engine if an "ineffective power" costs an unnecessarilly large number of points to purchase. HERO system is supposed to be a game where you get what you pay for, not significantly more or less depending on so called "purity of simulation".

 

The original topic was regarding ways to simplify HERO... In that regard having an established method of "manipulating gravity" would simplify the game by allowing players to pay for that ability what is it actually worth; as opposed to the overly complicated compound power construct I have described above.

[TheDarkness]

I actually think, between the group, the elements for doing it, if one wanted to, are there, which is pretty impressive.

 

Mind you, I have no idea how to model the increased acceleration and difference in damage, but, if the requirements are:

 

1) moves every segment

2) deals damage based on when the hit occurs

3) damage and acceleration increase at varying rates then peak

 

We have a functional approach. Crazy.

[Cantriped]

I actually think, between the group, the elements for doing it, if one wanted to, are there, which is pretty impressive.

 

Mind you, I have no idea how to model the increased acceleration and difference in damage, but, if the requirements are:

 

1) moves every segment

2) deals damage based on when the hit occurs

3) damage and acceleration increase at varying rates then peak

 

We have a functional approach. Crazy.

In that regard my original post on this sub-topic was incorrect, and must be retracted; there is a way to do it with a very complex, two (or more) part compound power involving heavily modified Flight and Blast.

[massey]

It is a problem with the game engine if an "ineffective power" costs an unnecessarilly large number of points to purchase. HERO system is supposed to be a game where you get what you pay for, not significantly more or less depending on so called "purity of simulation".

 

The original topic was regarding ways to simplify HERO... In that regard having an established method of "manipulating gravity" would simplify the game by allowing players to pay for that ability what is it actually worth; as opposed to the overly complicated compound power construct I have described above.

 

I could not disagree more.  The fact that it is possible to waste points in the game while tilting at windmills is not a flaw in the game rules.  It's a problem with the avenue that the player chose in building his character.

 

Gravity control is easy to do in Hero.  TK, Energy Blast x2 KB, Flight UAA, all are perfectly fine representations.  The fact that a player insists on trying to duplicate aspects of the environment that are combat ineffective is just a problem with the player.

[massey]

And actually, I'd allow the power Change Environment to work as a "reverse gravity" field, but it would be subject to all the normal limitations of regular gravity.  It's the same as buying Change Environment to fill a pool with water.  Somebody could drown in the pool, but it would be with the regular drowning rules.  In other words, slow and easy to avoid.

 

4D6 Energy Blast, NND (LS: Breathing), Continuous.  This is a super-drowning power.  If you're speed 5, you shoot somebody with this, a normal person can drown in like 3 seconds.  That's way faster than normal drowning.  I'm out of shape, and I can hold my breath for nearly a minute.  That's before I start taking damage.  At a minute, I don't fall over unconscious, I go to the surface and breathe deep.  So normal, Change Environment-induced drowning would be a thing that required noncombat time.

 

The same would be true with CE reverse gravity.  You'd need a big enough CE for them to keep falling up.  And if they hit something, yeah they take falling damage.  Potentially a lot.  But pushing someone off a cliff is free, so remember that.  And anybody with some degree of super-movement is probably going to be able to negate the power.  The only people who are really screwed are people without powers who are fighting a guy with powers.  So it doesn't really seem that problematic to me.

[TheDarkness]

I could not disagree more.  The fact that it is possible to waste points in the game while tilting at windmills is not a flaw in the game rules.  It's a problem with the avenue that the player chose in building his character.

 

Gravity control is easy to do in Hero.  TK, Energy Blast x2 KB, Flight UAA, all are perfectly fine representations.  The fact that a player insists on trying to duplicate aspects of the environment that are combat ineffective is just a problem with the player.

You know, it's funny. I sometimes will model exactly an idea I have, not sure whether I'll use it. Sometimes its of little value. BUT, sometimes, it yields something good. And sometimes, I find that realistic approaches are sometimes simpler than what is commonly done with fewer weird complications that come up. Even when they're not, they're sometimes useful from a villain death-trap kind of perspective.

 

That's kind of what got me started on retooling martial arts for my own purposes. I had to, because me and too many of my players have decades of martial arts experience, and some of the martial arts system just doesn't make sense, both from a fight perspective and from a Hero perspective. The whole construct simplifies character generation, but absolutely kills builds outside of the setup for the most part, and limits things to that interpretation. I'm finding that, instead of complicating things, using a realistic base actually simplifies matters. What's especially funny to me is that, given the nature of damage in Hero, making it more realistic does not take away the cinematic flavor, but it does make it more contentious when you can't count on automatic knockdowns via sweeps and throws, and when your moves to help you deal with higher speed characters are also not absolute in nature.

 

Mind you, the write-ups are awful at this point. All sorts of naked advantages outside pools, so confusing to read. And my anger at no skills in pools while martial arts clearly totally just hand waves the fact that it's a pool full of skills. I just want to shine a light on this injustice, but I don't know how to make a light...

[TheDarkness]

And actually, I'd allow the power Change Environment to work as a "reverse gravity" field, but it would be subject to all the normal limitations of regular gravity.  It's the same as buying Change Environment to fill a pool with water.  Somebody could drown in the pool, but it would be with the regular drowning rules.  In other words, slow and easy to avoid.

 

4D6 Energy Blast, NND (LS: Breathing), Continuous.  This is a super-drowning power.  If you're speed 5, you shoot somebody with this, a normal person can drown in like 3 seconds.  That's way faster than normal drowning.  I'm out of shape, and I can hold my breath for nearly a minute.  That's before I start taking damage.  At a minute, I don't fall over unconscious, I go to the surface and breathe deep.  So normal, Change Environment-induced drowning would be a thing that required noncombat time.

 

The same would be true with CE reverse gravity.  You'd need a big enough CE for them to keep falling up.  And if they hit something, yeah they take falling damage.  Potentially a lot.  But pushing someone off a cliff is free, so remember that.  And anybody with some degree of super-movement is probably going to be able to negate the power.  The only people who are really screwed are people without powers who are fighting a guy with powers.  So it doesn't really seem that problematic to me.

I like this idea. BUT, it does have to deal with the damage for falling. That's a big potential damage, so the points would still end up being quite high, I would think.

[Chris Goodwin]

Images and light:  This hearkens back to the old Champions II supplement for first edition, where it first appeared as Light Illusions.  It was measured in d6 and had a table like Mental Illusions, and was compared to the target's INT in the same way to figure out whether they accepted it or not.  It also specified that you could use 1d6 of Light Illusions to generate one hex of light.  

 

 

Anyway to bring this back on topic, one Idea i might 'borrow' from M+M is the feature power. This cost 1 point in M+M, I'd probably price it it 3 (maybe 5) in hero.

 

I agree with this and have had this idea myself.  Like the equivalent of a Perk, but it's a Power.  Costing from 1 to 5 points (maybe 1 to 10), this lets you, with GM permission, define some small minor ability.  Useful, because you're paying points for it, but it's not something you want to write up a curlicue'd build with three linked Powers and thirty Modifiers for.  

 

You could use it in a VPP or Resource Pool for something like a minor gadget with limited use -- a spoon or a towel might be 1 point apiece, 50' of rope might be 3 points.  

 

For my own on-topic contribution, I wanted to add something that I need a good name for.  Memorized Fact, but that's not exactly the right name for it.  It's a generalization of Teleport's Memorized/Floating Locations, along with Cramming, along with 1 point Familiarity Skills.  For 1 point, you can have a memorized "thing" of some kind, or for 5 points you can have a floating "slot" that you can change out (GM's option how long it takes; probably 1 Turn in combat, 1 Minute or more out of combat).  If it's something that would require a roll, you get an 8- roll with it.  You define what it applies to when you buy it.  If used for Teleport, it is a location.  You can use it with Extradimensional Movement in order to have fixed or floating locations in a dimension.  If it's for Skills, for 1 point you can have a Familiarity with an 8- roll; for 5 points you have a Cramming slot (this matches exactly with Familiarity and Cramming cost and use).  You could use it with Shape Shift, for memorized forms.  You could use it for a Variable Power Pool, as a way to cover something like Only Known Spells.  There could be lots of other uses; HERO System gamers are endlessly inventive.  

[massey]

I like this idea. BUT, it does have to deal with the damage for falling. That's a big potential damage, so the points would still end up being quite high, I would think.

 

Yeah, but you'd need a very large Change Environment to make use of it.  You'd need, what, a 200-something hex radius?  And then they'd have to hit something at the end?  And it takes several phases before it happens?  And it's stopped by somebody with 1" of Flight?