New powers that you think would simplify Hero

[Hyper-Man]

Perhaps an "incapacitate" power could be worked up, that does stuns, knockdowns, etc.  Something that a resistance can be built around, but that has an absolute effect

 

You mean like the Stunning Effect option for Change Environment that everyone hates?

 

HM

[Beast]

darkness is a -4 to perceptions
a head lamp is as easy as +4 to sight perception oaf

Then why is it so notoriously hard to build a headlight? Honest question.

 

I suppose the better topic would be, what are things that are ridiculously difficult to build that should be simple, and how would you simplify the process.

[TheDarkness]

Exactly, the idea of "pay for the power you want" is a trap when it comes to very specialized or situational powers. Game balance typically forbids players from taking 30d6 EBs and Mind Controls in 350 point Superheroic games. If the result of "this attack knocks the opponent prone" is what you want, you should be paying for the effectiveness of that result, and if it costs more points than that by the rules, it's an oversight in the rules.

Batman has absolutely no need(and, aside from exceptions to the normal characterization, generally didn't use) for legsweep vs. Hulk. Quite frankly, let's give him a 25 STR. If he buys 20 STR for legsweep only, okay, maybe 10 points, but since he has a ton of other moves, it's in a pool, so not even that. He effectively has 45 STR for a legsweep, 25 of which is also regular damage.

 

Yes, there is no 'legsweep anyone automatically' option to this, it doesn't model the +1d6 to the current legsweep, but it has granularity. The current setup actually punishes any such builds by magically discounting the martial arts, allowing skills in its pools while forbidding it in all other pools, and enforcing an interpretation of martial arts that, while having some excellent ideas, also has some issues and thus prevents builds that would, frankly, add a lot to game play.

[TheDarkness]

darkness is a -4 to perceptions

a head lamp is as easy as +4 to sight perception oaf

I think, if there is absolute darkness, that power will not have the effect of a flashlight. Not positive on that, though.

[TheDarkness]

TheDarkness, on 01 Nov 2016 - 12:04 AM, said:

 

Then why is it so notoriously hard to build a headlight? Honest question.

 

 

 

 

Honestly - I think it's because building a headlight is simply not something you are supposed to do. It's not what the Hero System is FOR.

 

 

You can build a CAR, and you are supposed to assume it has headlights. You can build a warrior and go exploring a hole in the ground and are supposed to assume you bring along a lantern. You can build a police officer complete with handgun and billy club, and you can assume he also has a flashlight.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

You can always assume I have a palindromedary

 

 

I would respond that it's merely an oversight, and there is absolutely no reason the system could not manage it if it was added in. It's light. And ordinary light. It has an AOE, cone, beam, and/or sphere, beyond that, there's not much else to it. It's not so much work because it's so hard, it's so much work because it keeps getting shoehorned in with things that aren't really suitable to the purpose. And the reason that there is nothing suitable to the purpose does not appear to have any particular reason other than it just wasn't added in, and the tendency to try to find ways to use what's there overtook the sense of saying, no, none of these powers model ordinary light in any sensible way, much less model the cost of it, given that it literally cannot directly harm anyone without a susceptibility to it.

 

I'm going to say that any game designer who makes the power change environment but is afraid to make a power for emitting(but not controlling) real ordinary wavelengths of light due to the capacity of munchkins to mess with it has lost their sanity long ago.

 

My money says it's just a case of not having been on the to-do list, and it's absence seems to have nothing to do with Hero being unable to model it and budget it, given a power that could do it.

[Tasha]

I can hear players from campaigns long past (teenage years): "But flashlights can briefly blind someone, too! And they work as clubs! Why can't I do those things with your Hero flashlight?" 

 

Because that's for a cheapie flashlight. Which I would treat like a Fragile Focus.

 

If you want a superbright LED 3-6 Cell MagLite you pay more for it. ie add the 1-2d6 Flash and a 2d6-4d6 HtH attack

 

Transmit does pretty much what I want

 

"TRANSMIT

Cost: 2 CP for a single Sense

         5 CP for a Sense Group

Allows Senses to transmit information similar to the information they perceive."

 

For a minor ability like a Flashlight I wouldn't quibble about it.

[TheDarkness]

 

Because that's for a cheapie flashlight. Which I would treat like a Fragile Focus.

 

If you want a superbright LED 3-6 Cell MagLite you pay more for it. ie add the 1-2d6 Flash and a 2d6-4d6 HtH attack

 

Transmit does pretty much what I want

 

"TRANSMIT

Cost: 2 CP for a single Sense

         5 CP for a Sense Group

Allows Senses to transmit information similar to the information they perceive."

 

For a minor ability like a Flashlight I wouldn't quibble about it.

 

I would add a limitation, only light. At least then it's not equivalent in cost to a 2d6 blast.

[Doc Democracy]

I can hear players from campaigns long past (teenage years): "But flashlights can briefly blind someone, too! And they work as clubs! Why can't I do those things with your Hero flashlight?" 

 

And this is where the wise GM provides flexibility that the rules cannot.  Obviously we can put something on there that provides a clue to those flexibilities.  One of them is OAF.  That means the power is a thing.  All things can be used as weapons to club folk.  Of course the focus rules mean that when we clock someone with it, there is a chance it will break...

 

As for the briefly blind someone, I would be inclined to play that as anything - if you could pick up a lamp and blind someone then the flashlight could too - but it should not be as useful, or as easy to use, as a flash.

 

Those are the things the rules should not need to tell you...

 

...but I know you know that in a way your teenage self did not....

 

:-)

Doc

[TheDarkness]

And this is where the wise GM provides flexibility that the rules cannot.  Obviously we can put something on there that provides a clue to those flexibilities.  One of them is OAF.  That means the power is a thing.  All things can be used as weapons to club folk.  Of course the focus rules mean that when we clock someone with it, there is a chance it will break...

 

As for the briefly blind someone, I would be inclined to play that as anything - if you could pick up a lamp and blind someone then the flashlight could too - but it should not be as useful, or as easy to use, as a flash.

 

Those are the things the rules should not need to tell you...

 

...but I know you know that in a way your teenage self did not....

 

:-)

Doc

I think the flash thing is not a property of a flashlight, but a weakness of human eyes, so I'd likely play it as such, as opposed to forcing a purchase of something that really isn't an attack property of the power.

[TheDarkness]

Perhaps an "incapacitate" power could be worked up, that does stuns, knockdowns, etc.  Something that a resistance can be built around, but that has an absolute effect

After some thought, even though my initial thought on such absolute powers was against it, I can see where it has a fair use, assuming that it has a short time of the desired effect.

 

Using stun, since it is quantifiable, we're talking about something the emulates actual stun, but only for the purchased time period, with none of the concurrent loss of stun. Either no stun is lost, or the stun is lost, but regained as soon as the power's duration ends.

 

My main view on these things is basically, is the power fair to others, can they have resistance to it, and how.

 

In the case of stun, however, it all seems like a buy-around to nullify the stun players actually bought. In which case, the resistance to it should probably be another stat. If it were a mental power or a magical one, appropriate stats could be applied. That way, it's fair.

 

I'm thinking off the top of my head on this, so I may be missing some issues. It seems like a stun so temporary could be bought under something that limited the time of effect and then returned all the requisite stun after. Or, emulated the stun for the duration without any loss of stun(probably preferable).

 

BUT, if the latter, it's a pretty overpowered thing if all it takes is one roll, and it either works or doesn't. Either that roll would have to be pretty tough, or the chance or resisting it available.

 

I'm thinking it would probably be simpler to tie it to affecting a stat or more that tends to be lower for more people.

[Zephrosyne]

A power dedicated to creating inanimate objects would be useful. We have powers to create walls, but there's no power to create a tree, or at cosmic power levels, a mountain.

 

Transform is both too expensive and powerful for this effect, and not granular enough in its effects. Being able to turn your opponent into a statue is mechanically the same as turning the air (or "nothing" for pure creation) into a statue. And the stats (size, defense, body, weight, special abilities, etc) of things made by transform aren't determined by the transform power.

 

A power based on the final stats of the object (i.e. the volume/mass, defense/body, and any special abilities) makes a lot more sense as a unique power, with the major difference being that it doesn't have to interact with an initial target, because it's built more like Summon than like Transform.

Actually, there is a power that does this.in the Advanced Player's Guide 2 (pg. 32) called Object Creation.  It is actually pretty useful.

[Doc Democracy]

I think the flash thing is not a property of a flashlight, but a weakness of human eyes, so I'd likely play it as such, as opposed to forcing a purchase of something that really isn't an attack property of the power.

 

I can see anything relying on that kind of logic stimulating debate in game at some point.  :-)

 

I understand what you are saying but the judgements on where the line gets drawn on that kind of thing may vary wildly!!  

[Hugh Neilson]

TheDarkness, on 01 Nov 2016 - 12:04 AM, said:

 

Then why is it so notoriously hard to build a headlight? Honest question.

 

 

 

 

Honestly - I think it's because building a headlight is simply not something you are supposed to do. It's not what the Hero System is FOR.

 

 

You can build a CAR, and you are supposed to assume it has headlights. You can build a warrior and go exploring a hole in the ground and are supposed to assume you bring along a lantern. You can build a police officer complete with handgun and billy club, and you can assume he also has a flashlight.

 

The old Mayfair DC Heroes game had a discussion on how to build a spoon (maybe it was a fork) which went on and on with the build mechanic, concluding with something like "and now you have a spoon. That works once." The message was "why are you trying to build a spoon? It's not something that impacts the game, so what is the point of trying to use the rules to make it." Some of us could take a lesson from that...

 

Life Support: does not eat or excrete has been in the game for decades, yet somehow we manage without rules for bathroom usage. It lacks dramatic or cinematic necessity.

[steriaca]

Superskill.

 

No manadary limitations (simply make illegal buying STR only for damage).

 

Instachange and Transfer returning.

 

Give light levels for Change Environment power.

[TheDarkness]

 

The old Mayfair DC Heroes game had a discussion on how to build a spoon (maybe it was a fork) which went on and on with the build mechanic, concluding with something like "and now you have a spoon. That works once." The message was "why are you trying to build a spoon? It's not something that impacts the game, so what is the point of trying to use the rules to make it." Some of us could take a lesson from that...

 

Life Support: does not eat or excrete has been in the game for decades, yet somehow we manage without rules for bathroom usage. It lacks dramatic or cinematic necessity.

Except light, in completely dark situations, has major tactical implications. A spoon, only if you are assaulting fruit loops.

[Cantriped]

Batman needs to know how many points his Batlight and Batspork cost to keep in his Utility Belt VPP/Resource Pool!

[TheDarkness]

Batman needs to know how many points his Batlight and Batspork cost to keep in his Utility Belt VPP/Resource Pool!

I think the bigger issue is that the area of light really should be known. Otherwise, it's really easy to cheese people who are using stealth by over representing the light of a flashlight, things like that. And, really, it's a silly thing for a game to be largely unable to model that can model virtually anything else and have it fall inside a rational cost structure. And there's really nothing about the system that makes it unable to model it, except for the lack of a power that models it.

 

As for the batspork, it's just like the batfork, sticky, food items only, OAF. The only difference between it and the batspork is it doesn't have the disadvantage 'doesn't work on peas'.

[Beast]

then you are looking at a power(Darkness) and would need a counter power

Darkness vs normal sight countered with IR vision passive or active for flavor

I have been it that room(absolute darkenss)at JPL as an explorer scout
flash light would only work for 10 feet to see the floor
the room was in effect the power Darkness

I think, if there is absolute darkness, that power will not have the effect of a flashlight. Not positive on that, though.

[Beast]

Really Hero System can do anything
you want to over complicate it you can
I much prefer to use the KISS system

[TheDarkness]

I can see anything relying on that kind of logic stimulating debate in game at some point.  :-)

 

I understand what you are saying but the judgements on where the line gets drawn on that kind of thing may vary wildly!!  

Actually, for me, the line falls this way: by accepting that there is a susceptibility for all normal human sight(which is actually true), not one worth points(perhaps it's added points are balancing out free martial maneuvers, alongside limitations like small bladder, excessive morning eye sand, voice like Gordon Godfrey, skin tags, etc), that, when vision is adjusted to dark and a bright light is flashed into them there is a segment or two of limited vision, I don't have to do a build for every one with a normal level of light, whether due to power, equipment, or mirror, and they don't have to pay for something that is really of minor value that everyone else in the game should rightfully be able to do with any light source anyway.

 

Basically, because the effect could be used against anyone with any light source under dark conditions with the same effect, it seems like a vulnerability more than a power at play. Or, one could interpret it as a free martial maneuver everyone has that has a seriously limited use, call it 'annoying cousin with a flashlight at night'.

 

Plus, if one actually designed a light source power, accepting that as a rule then eradicates the most likely attempted munchkin effect.

[Cantriped]

Really Hero System can do anything

you want to over complicate it you can

I much prefer to use the KISS system

HERO can do almost anything, but it can't do everything. For example, there simply aren't any game elements which allow a character to accurately reproduce to effects of the falling rules (movement which accelerates by the segment up to a set maximum, and which converts into velocity based damage at the end).

[massey]

HERO can do almost anything, but it can't do everything. For example, there simply aren't any game elements which allow a character to accurately reproduce to effects of the falling rules (movement which accelerates by the segment up to a set maximum, and which converts into velocity based damage at the end).

 

Sure there are.  It's an attack, with linked flight usable against others.  Easy.

[TheDarkness]

Really Hero System can do anything

you want to over complicate it you can

I much prefer to use the KISS system

The funny thing in Hero is, there's so many darn ways to keep it simple that it gets complex.

 

I recall a thread about a power that made it appear that you were seven feet away from where you actually were.

 

The simplest build was, as I recall, DCV.

 

The simplest way to get that exact effect was invisibility and images(exact, as in, the most likely person to miss the real target and hit the false one is the person with the most accuracy, whereas DCV would have the opposite effect)

 

Which one makes sense totally depends. If you are making a villain to contest a marksman hero, the second build will probably last longer, if we're using that as the villain's main power. If not, the first will be more cost effective.

 

I try to look at the underlying game physics and look for the most appropriate way to build exactly what I'm trying to build, something that will behave like what I'm looking for.

[Cantriped]

Sure there are.  It's an attack, with linked flight usable against others.  Easy.

Not easy... not easy at all.

Linked Flight would need to be Usable As Attack, and still cannot accelerate or move the victim per segment unless the character using the power has a speed of 12. Because you cannot deal velocity based damage with a UAA Movement Power: the Linked attack would have to be able to dish out 30d6 of Blast, have Trigger so that it goes off when the victim strikes a surface, and have some form of Conditional limiting the actual damage dealt based on Velocity upon impact.

 

At the very least you are looking at three linked powers (UAA Flight, Limited SPD, and Limited Triggered Blast) with a huge number of active points and modifiers. At standard font and column sizes you are looking at a quarter of a page (or more) of game-elements to reproduce one "effect"

[Beast]

instant acceleration
Blast 18d6 double knockback does no stun or body damage(KB only) indirect

Massey had a good one also

HERO can do almost anything, but it can't do everything. For example, there simply aren't any game elements which allow a character to accurately reproduce to effects of the falling rules (movement which accelerates by the segment up to a set maximum, and which converts into velocity based damage at the end).