New powers that you think would simplify Hero

[TheDarkness]

For a lot of builds, particularly for magic, I have to build something fairly complicated just to knock people over, maybe something that can more simply represent that would be useful.  Change Environment is the usual dumping grounds for miscellaneous powers like that.

Yes, falling should not require such a funky power to build. I've been working with making a master list of maneuvers for martial arts in pools, and I'm refusing to use change environment- knockdown should be the basis. Falling down is something normally codified in a games combat rules or other rules, and things that make people knocked down are based off of this. I'm basically building throws, trips, and sweeps as mostly STR for knockdown only.

 

I haven't looked at the cost for doing it with change environment. I know there are often many ways to do a thing. BUT, I also know that the rules are quite clear about using a different power to save cost when there is an exact thing intended to do exactly what one is trying to do, but costs more. It seems odd to me that change environment is in any way an allowable choice for how to make people fall down. Or that Images, a power that involves (imaginary) light that one actually controls with fine detail is in any way the basis for cost of (real)light one has no control over once it is emitted.

[Chris Goodwin]

It's sadly not noted in CC, but 1G of gravity is considered to be 5 STR.  Change Environment can do Telekinetic STR.

[Tasha]

re Flashlight

Couldn't you write it up simply as this:
3 Nightvision, Transmit (7 Active Points); OAF (Flashlight; -1)

It allows everyone to see in the dark in a regular sight radius. Probably should be limited further to reduce the range of sight, but that's what a flashlight allows someone to do, see in the dark.

[massey]

I've always hated that Change Environment is this grand catch-all power, yet it cannot reproduce half of the environmental effects described in CC/FHC.

 

For example: Change Environment cannot manipulate Gravity, and there just isn't a power which can accurately produce those effects.

 

Change Environment cannot produce light... instead we have to use Images (which is a power to tricking enemies with illusions). Even though Change Environment and Images price their modifiers to PER rolls at the same rate; we are told we have to use Images, pay a surcharge for its ability to "trick" people, and then place a -1 limitation on the power to eliminate the benefits of the surcharge... its all just so complicated and pointless. Its exactly the same kind of BS we put up with in 5th and before having to create walls as Area of Effect Entangles.

 

I think the builds for Flashlights would be a lot simpler if we could just write them as Change Environment with Area of Effect, Charges, and Focus.

 

I think the easiest way to fix a lot of these problems is to let Change Environment work the way it used to.  We still use it to generate light, whatever the book says be damned.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'm not real fond of Change Environment being the "here's stuff we couldn't figure out where else to put it" power, either.  It seems like maybe another power could be worked up for some of them and leave true environmental effects like weather and such for CE.  I don't particularly like Images used for light because Images isn't really light, its an illusion or image, like a projection or hologram.  Maybe some kind of light based effects metapower that also worked for darkness would be the thing.

[Amorkca]

For the light flashlight example, someone who has light based powers could do a Power Skill roll to use their powers creatively.

 

I know that doesn't help you with the falling down thingy but its a step...

[Tasha]

Sooo anyone want to comment on my flashlight build?

It's total reasoning from effect
ie Q: what does a flashlight REALLY do?   Answer: allow people to see in the dark.

So Nightvision is what allows for that. Transmit to share what the Flashlight reveals. It's assumed to be in the same arc as Vision. It might need reduced by range or decreased Range Mod.

Change Environment never worked for me. IMHO it's a minor effect so a 3 point power FEELS right to me. Never Liked using Images for that. Though I understand the reason that people choose that power for it (Images is the descendant of the 1st Ed Fantasy Hero Power Light Illusions, which the Game added to help build Illusion powers that weren't mental Illusions)

Yes I would allow someone with Light, Fire, and Electricity powers to make a simple Power Skill roll to create light. (Yeah, I am sure that I missed some Special effects)

[Amorkca]

Wouldn't you need to include "usable on others" in the Nightvision build or does Transmit cover that?

[Christopher R Taylor]

I can't comment on the build because I'm not exactly clear on how "transmit" works in terms of range, area, etc.

[Tasha]

Wouldn't you need to include "usable on others" in the Nightvision build or does Transmit cover that?

 

Pretty sure that Transmit covers it. It's a cheap enough power that Usable by all others isn't that much more expensive. Perhaps one of you can look it up in CC and/or 6e1. Don't have the time at the moment to do the research.

[eepjr24]

I would not allow it, partly because there is already an established way to create light and partly because of the wording of transmit:

allows a character to transmit information similar to that which he can perceive

I would be more inclined to allow it to be used for things like video projection on a flat surface, but it would function very poorly as a light source for my money. 

 

Steve compares it to a TV here.

 

Just because something is relatively easy for us to understand does not mean that it should be inexpensive to build in Hero. And Images is simple, just not inexpensive. Zip ties make VERY effective handcuffs, but the in game effect they give is worth 40+ points. I am not making them a 10 point power just because they are easy to buy.

 

- E

[Chris Goodwin]

Tasha, did you mean Active instead of Transmit?

[dsatow]

My $0.02 (and keeping with the concept of a new power rather than fixing an existing power),

 

A better solution for a new power would be to create something like below:

 

Incidental Power (1 to 5 points)

This power can not be used to affect any combat modifier except where a special effect might affect a character or power.  The value of the Incidental power is rated from 1-5 based on usefulness in the campaign.  The GM is final arbiter of how much an incidental power should cost.

Examples:

Instachange = 5 points.

Cellphone = 5 points.

Leatherman/Swiss Army Pocket Knife = 5 points.

Towel = 5 points.

Bic Lighter = 4 points.

Permanent Marker = 4 points.

Mirror = 3 points.

Flashlight = 3 points.

Toiletry kit = 2 points except at a gaming convention 5 points.

Phrase book/Dictionary for a language = 2 points.

Handful of Change (not more than $5) = 1 point.

Mp3 player with Justin Beiber Songs = 1 point.

 

A common flashlight would be of nominal use, a floodlight or spotlight should be a power.  A flashlight wouldn't really do much except allow you to see a small area in the dark unless of course the target had something like susceptible to light or some such thing.  Of course a cellphone would be pretty useful now or even 30 years ago but in the wild west, maybe not so much.

[dsatow]

I'd like to see Transfer come back.  I think the current idea of using Aid and Drain as an unnecessary over complication. 

[Joe Walsh]

re Flashlight

 

Couldn't you write it up simply as this:

3 Nightvision, Transmit (7 Active Points); OAF (Flashlight; -1)

 

It allows everyone to see in the dark in a regular sight radius. Probably should be limited further to reduce the range of sight, but that's what a flashlight allows someone to do, see in the dark.

 

I can hear players from campaigns long past (teenage years): "But flashlights can briefly blind someone, too! And they work as clubs! Why can't I do those things with your Hero flashlight?" 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Perhaps an "incapacitate" power could be worked up, that does stuns, knockdowns, etc.  Something that a resistance can be built around, but that has an absolute effect

[TheDarkness]

I can hear players from campaigns long past (teenage years): "But flashlights can briefly blind someone, too! And they work as clubs! Why can't I do those things with your Hero flashlight?" 

Since it's a focus, it has body, and therefore, can be used to strike with. If it was a big cop flashlight(or, like my old friend's that he'd take campling, 'bearkiller'), I would totally pay for the club property. For the normal flashlight that people often have in their drawer, I'm not sure I would count on hitting anyone with one of those more than once before it broke.

 

As for temporarily blinding, I would argue that, for humans, if in a very dark place for a very long time, and a bright light is flashed in their eyes, their being made blind is the property of a vulnerability, NOT a property of light. So I would allow it at sensible game times.

 

Sometimes, the game physics, not the build physics, are the right answer to the build.

[Cantriped]

Since it's a focus, it has body, and therefore, can be used to strike with...

Foci, unlike bases, vehicles, and "objects", do not have BODY. Foci have their own strange and separate rules for how they react to damage; which relate to tropes of the Superheroic Genre. However since Foci usually have Defenses of one form or another, their PD allows them to be used as decent improvised weapons if you've got the strength, but not too much strength.

[TheDarkness]

Perhaps an "incapacitate" power could be worked up, that does stuns, knockdowns, etc.  Something that a resistance can be built around, but that has an absolute effect

Here's my thought on this.

 

For damaging powers, the defining point of the build is STUN, Body, PD/ED. This is obviously sensible, since that's what is being affected.

 

HA, Blast, KA, all are built around this and their costs are based around the amount they can affect the first two and how(HA, KA).

 

This has several merits. Two of the biggest are, first, they are well defined and simple, but versatile. The second is that they do not do a buy-around on OTHER PEOPLE'S expenditures. If you want to overcome a high PD, you will need to pay for it. Likewise, if you want to avoid extra damage, you will have to pay for damage reduction or what have you. Fairly strong balance.

 

Now, an effect that puts people on the ground already exists. Knockdown, and it fits in the same balanced framework as all of the above.

 

Yet, that is not used for any powers that cause knockdown, because of the desire for automatic knockdown.

 

Now, if I want automatic kill, or automatic mind control, I have to pay for it in amounts that absolutely no one will be able to resist.

 

Why should making someone prone get a buy-around? Why shouldn't it be "pay for the amount you want, and get the success you paid for when compared with what the other guy paid for"?

 

Should some schmoe be able to leg sweep the Hulk?

[TheDarkness]

Foci, unlike bases, vehicles, and "objects", do not have BODY. Foci have their own strange and separate rules for how they react to damage; which relate to tropes of the Superheroic Genre. However since Foci usually have Defenses of one form or another, their PD allows them to be used as decent improvised weapons if you've got the strength, but not too much strength.

I stand corrected!

[TheDarkness]

I would not allow it, partly because there is already an established way to create light and partly because of the wording of transmit:

I would be more inclined to allow it to be used for things like video projection on a flat surface, but it would function very poorly as a light source for my money. 

 

Steve compares it to a TV here.

 

Just because something is relatively easy for us to understand does not mean that it should be inexpensive to build in Hero. And Images is simple, just not inexpensive. Zip ties make VERY effective handcuffs, but the in game effect they give is worth 40+ points. I am not making them a 10 point power just because they are easy to buy.

 

- E

Except the cost of making light is also the cost of light that causes minor damage, which is not paying for the game effect they give, but paying for a glitch.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Should some schmoe be able to leg sweep the Hulk?

 

Sure, its the comic books.  If you're Leg Sweep Man, who can knock anyone over, then that's your signature power.  And with the "way to resist" caveat, then you get a way to stop the effect that can be built into the power and into defenses against it.  Kind of like flash, or any other power that normal people don't defend against now.

 

ARRG HULK BLIND!!!!

 

The discussion here is "stuff that could be added to simplify some builds."  Something that does effects like knocking someone over is too complicated for the results (and has a really high active point cost to be remotely reliable for the results as well).

[InfiniteKarma]

Sure, its the comic books.  If you're Leg Sweep Man, who can knock anyone over, then that's your signature power.  And with the "way to resist" caveat, then you get a way to stop the effect that can be built into the power and into defenses against it.  Kind of like flash, or any other power that normal people don't defend against now.

 

ARRG HULK BLIND!!!!

 

The discussion here is "stuff that could be added to simplify some builds."  Something that does effects like knocking someone over is too complicated for the results (and has a really high active point cost to be remotely reliable for the results as well).

Exactly, the idea of "pay for the power you want" is a trap when it comes to very specialized or situational powers. Game balance typically forbids players from taking 30d6 EBs and Mind Controls in 350 point Superheroic games. If the result of "this attack knocks the opponent prone" is what you want, you should be paying for the effectiveness of that result, and if it costs more points than that by the rules, it's an oversight in the rules.

[Lucius]

 

 

TheDarkness, on 01 Nov 2016 - 12:04 AM, said:

 

Then why is it so notoriously hard to build a headlight? Honest question.

 

 

 

 

Honestly - I think it's because building a headlight is simply not something you are supposed to do. It's not what the Hero System is FOR.

 

 

You can build a CAR, and you are supposed to assume it has headlights. You can build a warrior and go exploring a hole in the ground and are supposed to assume you bring along a lantern. You can build a police officer complete with handgun and billy club, and you can assume he also has a flashlight.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

You can always assume I have a palindromedary

 

 

[TheDarkness]

Sure, its the comic books.  If you're Leg Sweep Man, who can knock anyone over, then that's your signature power.  And with the "way to resist" caveat, then you get a way to stop the effect that can be built into the power and into defenses against it.  Kind of like flash, or any other power that normal people don't defend against now.

 

ARRG HULK BLIND!!!!

 

The discussion here is "stuff that could be added to simplify some builds."  Something that does effects like knocking someone over is too complicated for the results (and has a really high active point cost to be remotely reliable for the results as well).

Leg Sweep Man would NOT be some schmoe, he would be a guy who paid points for being able to leg sweep anyone. Flash is also an example that doesn't fit, as it also is a power you can point per point buy defense against.

 

Further, Leg Sweep man, using the absolute form of legsweep, would only require OCV for legsweep only, maybe skill levels if he felt like it, and he most certainly would not be a schmoe, even though he would have a horrible name. Hell, give him higher speed for legsweep only, higher STR for legsweep only, it's a highly munchkinable thing because it's not tied to anything anyone can reduce, it's absolute, all he needs to do is roll his OCV vs. OCV and you are automatically prone.

 

A more appropriate equivalent would be a mental attack that, with only a success on MCV VS. MCV automatically took away a portion of mental actions available to an opponent, irrespective of defense. How much would that cost?

 

I'm really not aware of many powers that a simple attack roll success allows absolute success on results against another character. I understand the desire for it, but making it the default while totally hiding the cost structure MAKES any legitimate build expensive in comparison, and precludes builds that, frankly, would make more options available that take advantage of the heart of the Hero system.

 

The fact is, any schmoe CAN leg sweep the hulk. AND any build using 'change environment' for making someone prone is from the gate way more complicated than a build using the knockdown rules.

 

You are correct about the point value, which is why the martial arts system is clearly a pool with largely undefined rules that somehow allow skills to be part of it(points required to just have the pool? Check. Needs a number of slots? Check. Clearly discounted price on all slots? Check). A sweep on its own built using knockdown, yes, it will be too expensive to make that one move practical*, but in a pool, given that it's already just STR with a limitation(for knockdown only) AND in a pool, it makes an effect that has some relation to the points of the target, isn't a clear attempt to bypass the most appropriate application(which Hero, in most other cases, warns against), and has the granularity of Hero preserved, instead of having the 'flavor' of that granularity, but not the meat of it.

 

On top of it, that cost is based on what effect you want. If you want to sweep the Hulk, it SHOULD cost more than sweeping a Hydra agent. If you just want to sweep thugs and skilled, but non-powered enemies, it should also cost less than sweeping the Hulk. If you want to magically sweep people irrespective of strength, then you can easily do it toward alternate defense, and since that would also be in a pool, a pool that likely has higher value spells in it, the cost, again, is mitigated.

 

The ONLY reason that this is prohibitive is because 1) The desire for absolute effects for certain balance issues, of which, leg sweep is far less relevant than, say, block, for this reason, and 2) No skills in pools, except, apparently, the martial arts 'pool'.

 

*further, I think you'll find that, outside of the martial arts system currently in use, almost any of those maneuvers should technically be quite a bit more costly