New powers that you think would simplify Hero

[Doc Democracy]

It's like DOJ insists to perpetual the meme that HERO is complicated to the extreme. Granted, the real issue here is not Instant Change per say, it's the GUI. More on this below.

Part of this depends on whom the stats are talking to. If they are talking to the GM, then there is a real use in providing the build information. If it is to players then there is no need. This is a limitation of print media. What I dont understand is why (except for reasons that it is more work), on PDF documents, they cannot put in the simple language and have the actual build be a call out.

 

 

You obviously don't know me.

I dont know any of you! :-)

 

Another example is Equipment. More often than not, DOJ makes a point to write something like (from Adventure The Val of Stalla for Fantasy Hero Complete): 

 

War Captain's Spear:

Game Information: HKA 2d6, Armor Piercing (+¼), Area Of Effect (1m Radius, Accurate; +½), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½) (67 Active Points); OAF (spear; -1) (total cost: 33 CP) plus Reach 3m (total cost: 3 CP) plus Sight Group Images, Area Of Effect (16m Radius; +¾), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½); OAF (spear; -1), Only To Create Light (-1), No Range (-½) (total cost: 6 CP). Real Cost: 42 CP.

 

Why, you might ask. I would say that is because, over the years, HERO GMs have asked how they are supposed to run kit that they do not have the build information for. I suppose it could be in an annex at the end that you can pull out and reference but it is often handier for the GM to be right there.

 

Another aspect where HERO could decrease complexity is by providing the all the tools to make powers intuitively. As an example, building Super-Running with Flight is not intuitive.

That is an historic issue. You can run fast with running but you cannot run up buildings. The available answer was to use flight that did allow you to gain altitude and limit it such that you had to be touching a surface. The unintuitive element now is that people default to Flight for that running - the name of the power should change (like Energy Blast to Blast) but I cannot think of what a decent name might be...

 

Doc

[steriaca]

I think his big complate is, how many times the exact same power item is writen up in a supplement. Just detail it once and call back to what page it is on insted of consistently stating HKA, Reach.

[Doc Democracy]

I do think there is a place for thinking in terms of a book and inserts - or with a code to download the builds for the book - in case you lose the paper. That way you would always be able to check the buid if you want and the authors would be free to focus on readable as well as usable.

 

I know that most of my early learning was through looking at the builds in printed materials and taking a hint from there.

 

 

Doc

[Lucius]

Really?  Because page 359 of 6th edition volume one talks specifically about Flight usable as attack being used to slam someone into a wall.

Thanks! I probably should have looked that up myself!

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Flight, Usable by Palindromedary

[Chris Goodwin]

That they don't make it look so damn complicated everytime they put it on a character sheet. I have no problem whatsoever with the way Instant Change is built in 6E but I am annoyed when I see on a published character sheet:

 

3     Instant Change: cosmetic transform 1d6 (one set of clothing into one costume and vice-versa; method of healing back varies based on character), trigger (changing clothing is a zero phase action, trigger immediately automatically resets; +¾) (5 active points); limited target (the clothes currently worn by character; -½). 

 

Instead of this:

 

3    Instant Change (one set of clothing into one costume and vice-versa)

 

It's like DOJ insists to perpetual the meme that HERO is complicated to the extreme. Granted, the real issue here is not Instant Change per say, it's the GUI. More on this below.

 

 

I agree.  I also see this as making Instant Change into more of a Champions Talent than a super power which to me is exactly what it should be.  By which I mean, a Talent that is superhero specific and available to superheroes, in the same way that there are some Talents that are fantasy specific and available to fantasy characters.  

[Tasha]

DOJ has gone to the extreme of making nearly everything (ex Martial Arts) has a consistant cost based off the building blocks in the game. Which leads to power constructs in the text being written out to the Nth Degree. Even Guns and Heroic Weapons are costed out and point values given. I asked why this was so important (Because it really overcomplicates Heroic Character Sheets). It was explained to me that JIC there was someone who wanted to drain that power. Which is really Ludicrous for majority of Heroic games. Just give the weapons a defense and body.

ie Great Sword +1 OCV, 2d6 HKA, Str Min 18, 14 def/6 body, 2H Weapon.  Simple succinct and to the point. Everything a player needs and nothing that they don't

vs Great Sword  (Total: 53 Active Cost, 16 Real Cost) HKA 2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 4-8 (-3/4), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 13) plus +1 with HTH Combat; OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3)  I have problems parsing that out and I have played/run the game for over 30 years.

 

It's like they feel the need to show the underlying code and not just the stuff people REALLY need. Hell all weapons have pretty much the same limitations. They don't need to be included in every character sheet. This also goes to the design of Hero Designer, where the bean counter approach is hard coded into the program. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

It was explained to me that JIC there was someone who wanted to drain that power. Which is really Ludicrous for majority of Heroic games. Just give the weapons a defense and body.

Which is valid... in the background.  It doesn't need to be built for every single thing, just show the active cost in a chart, and be done with it.

 

I have a fantasy treasure book coming out eventually and I decided that the last thing anyone needs is the background build for every potion and magic sword.  Frankly nobody cares but Hero builders, who would build their own.  Active cost listed, sure.  But the builds can be hidden and nobody will care.  Further all those blocks of numbers are intimidating and discouraging.  I'm even reconsidering having the numbers for spells in the Fantasy Codex.

 

[Tasha]

I have a fantasy treasure book coming out eventually and I decided that the last thing anyone needs is the background build for every potion and magic sword.  Frankly nobody cares but Hero builders, who would build their own.  Active cost listed, sure.  But the builds can be hidden and nobody will care.  Further all those blocks of numbers are intimidating and discouraging.  I'm even reconsidering having the numbers for spells in the Fantasy Codex.

 

Are you going to do a Hero Designer pack for those? 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Are you going to do a Hero Designer pack for those? 

 

Yeah actually that came to me as I was typing that post, do a build in Hero Designer and release that for people that want crunchy numbers, and just put the results in the book.  I might do that with the Fantasy Codex as well in a second edition -- it would make the book considerably slimmer -- but people like stats on stuff like spells.

[TheDarkness]

I think the full builds should be put in an Appendix at the end, and only really necessary to include for those things that aren't in the main book already.

[Hugh Neilson]

That they don't make it look so damn complicated everytime they put it on a character sheet. I have no problem whatsoever with the way Instant Change is built in 6E but I am annoyed when I see on a published character sheet:

 

3 Instant Change: cosmetic transform 1d6 (one set of clothing into one costume and vice-versa; method of healing back varies based on character), trigger (changing clothing is a zero phase action, trigger immediately automatically resets; +¾) (5 active points); limited target (the clothes currently worn by character; -½).

 

Instead of this:

 

3 Instant Change (one set of clothing into one costume and vice-versa)

SOLUTION: Two character sheets.

 

One is for in-play. It reflects Instant Change (one set of clothing into one costume and vice-versa). It does not even need the 3 point costs. None of the stats need to be costed out either. Ideally, this character sheet would be customized for the specific game, having a look that invokes at least the broad genre, if not the specific setting.

 

The second is the build sheet. It shows all details for the abilities and costs them out. The GM uses it to audit the character, and in the event a ruling on the effects and interactions of a specific construct arises.

 

Practically, other games already have this. Pathfinder and other d20 games show the character stats, but don`t provide room to put the point buy costs. They show the bonus to skills from ranks, but do not reconcile this to the character`s INT, class(es) and other sources of skill points to purchase those ranks. They give you space to list class and racial abilities, spells, etc., but certainly not the space to write out the book description (for example, the action cost, casting time, components, etc. of the various abilities), much less the build detail (which is not found anywhere in the actual game materials, a key difference from Hero).

 

Now, there is still an issue. Some gamers want the stats all in easy access on the page they are looking at when they want to use it (Paizo modules grapple with the same issue in creating stat blocks for adversaries and NPCs) and others chafe at all that wasted space and complexity on the page they are trying to play the game from.

 

More often than not, DOJ makes a point to write something like (from Adventure The Val of Stalla for Fantasy Hero Complete):

 

War Captain's Spear:

Game Information: HKA 2d6, Armor Piercing (+¼), Area Of Effect (1m Radius, Accurate; +½), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½) (67 Active Points); OAF (spear; -1) (total cost: 33 CP) plus Reach 3m (total cost: 3 CP) plus Sight Group Images, Area Of Effect (16m Radius; +¾), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½); OAF (spear; -1), Only To Create Light (-1), No Range (-½) (total cost: 6 CP). Real Cost: 42 CP.

As a GM, I want that, and the primary reader of an adventure is the GM. When a player says "I`d like to make a spell that sheds light like that", I have the build. But if I am writing up a sheet for in-game use for the War Captain, it will say:

 

SPEAR: 2d6 AP HKA, 1 Hex Acc, 0 END; +½); +1DC/10 STR; 3m Reach + 16m Light, 0 END

 

One approach would be two character sheets for the War Captain, one with all the build details and one without. But then some of us will complain the product reprints the same info twice instead of including more info by cutting some of the repetitiveness. And others will not like the choices made as to the formatting of the in-play sheet, because they would have done it differently. Providing only the Build Sheet is one reasonable choice among many.

 

Another aspect where HERO could decrease complexity is by providing the tools to make powers intuitively. As an example, building Super-Running with Flight is not intuitive.

What is intuitive depends a lot on the individual. Do we need separate flight and running, or just a Movement power whose cost varies if it can gain altitude, hover, turn on a dime, function through different media, etc., which is used to build running, flight, leaping, swinging, swimming, etc.? We have already had changes in that regard - gliding was a separate power for many years.

 

Super-Running could be a separate power (because, of course, the list is just not long enough yet, right?), or could be an example build (whether with formal recognition, like Talents, or just a sidebar example), but all those examples sure make the book bigger, which we continually hear makes it intimidating to new gamers. Again, choices that have to be made, and no choice will make everyone happy.

 

I think his big complate is, how many times the exact same power item is writen up in a supplement. Just detail it once and call back to what page it is on insted of consistently stating HKA, Reach.

After which, we will hear the complaints that I always forget how much Reach the spear has when running it in play, so I have to slow the game down to look it up (shorthanded to Hero sucks; combat is too slow; this format sucks - I am always slowing play to flip to the Appendix, only to find half the time I have to pull another book out and look it up there).

 

If we reprint the full stats in every book, people will complain that they paid for that in the source book, and now Hero is making them pay for it again, over and over for a common construct. But if we do not, people who bought the supplements using the build, but don`t have the supplement that spells out the build, will complain that they did not get a complete product because they can`t use the material as written without buying another book (Hero sucks - they`re moneygrubbers trying to force you to buy every book ever published just to run one adventure).

 

If Hero happens to make the exact choices I would have, terrific - but as I play with the results of those choices, my own preferences may also change. It`s not like one choice is clearly, objectively superior.

[Hugh Neilson]

This comes back to a "`Powered by Hero" concept where a specific game would be designed with abilities constructed and costed using the full rules, but presented without the mechanics (perhaps these would be available as an appendix, but more likely as an online extra). So you get a book that looks a lot like, say, Mutants and Masterminds. All of the campaign dials are set for you, including OCV, DCV, DC and defense maxima, among many others. All of the builds are pre-constructed, although they may come with options, and most will be scalable. None of them show you how to build the underlying ability - you buy it for the cost set out, and you don`t get to tinker with the build - you get the options the game designer provided.

 

It`s not "The Hero System" - you don't get all the Hero System details, and you don't have to have any idea how the construction system works. It`s an independent game "Powered by Hero", much like many games long-time Hero veterans build within their own groups.

[TheDarkness]

This comes back to a "`Powered by Hero" concept where a specific game would be designed with abilities constructed and costed using the full rules, but presented without the mechanics (perhaps these would be available as an appendix, but more likely as an online extra). So you get a book that looks a lot like, say, Mutants and Masterminds. All of the campaign dials are set for you, including OCV, DCV, DC and defense maxima, among many others. All of the builds are pre-constructed, although they may come with options, and most will be scalable. None of them show you how to build the underlying ability - you buy it for the cost set out, and you don`t get to tinker with the build - you get the options the game designer provided.

 

It`s not "The Hero System" - you don't get all the Hero System details, and you don't have to have any idea how the construction system works. It`s an independent game "Powered by Hero", much like many games long-time Hero veterans build within their own groups.

Yes. And I think one of the key factors in making the idea work is in avoiding SOME gaming genre memes that were actually ways to make character type X interesting within the limits of their home game, while making the memes of the original novel source material live(fantasy comes to mind) by way of Hero's capacity to build anything and everything(behind the scenes, of course).

 

So that class becomes less of a factor.

 

I'm actually working on a fantasy setting, and have some of what I feel(I'm biased) are some solid ideas for what would be considered rangers that Hero is actually perfect for achieving, but other systems tend to fail at.

 

Likewise, want to cast some spells? No problem. Want to have more powerful spells? You're probably going to need to specialize a bit, as they will cost you. This allows for small magic for anyone who wants it, while making those who make magic their specialty extra special.

 

Further, ideas that in other systems(guess which one) require a cleric to heal, well, there's no reason some healing abilities might not be available to others, and one could have the same healing spell and define it as the healing power of the Great Garden Gnome(may he rest unabducted in the great yard of garden gnome heaven) or a magical power or ancient elven herbal lore.

 

So you could have some spells that anyone can choose from if their concept makes it make sense(my god is a fire god, and I can't cast fireball? But I can heal people? What the heck?) Then some specialty stuff that is available only for you and people like you. Some fighting abilities that everyone can choose from, a few that are special, because hey, you're an elf with a bow, or a holy knight, but these are all things that don't define you as a 'class', such that everyone else who chooses that class will be narrowly defined by the same limits and options as you, no, you are an elf with a bow, you have that advantage, but you are also one sneaky bugger, and really thievery is where you excel, though you are not entirely without merits when it comes to one or two other things that most archers and thieves lack.

 

Thus, conceptually, we sell the idea of Hero's philosophy of build what you want, while making it far more accessible, and give GMs an incentive to buy the full system in order to tweek their world.

 

Also, Hugh, I think you're right, make the true builds accessible online.

[steriaca]

Lets compromise. Let the thing be writen once per supplement which uses it (for example, RKA Reach) instead of printing it only in one supplement.

[Christopher R Taylor]

This comes back to a "`Powered by Hero" concept where a specific game would be designed with abilities constructed and costed using the full rules, but presented without the mechanics (perhaps these would be available as an appendix, but more likely as an online extra).

 

Yeah I'm leaning heavily toward that with my "Player's Handbook" for my campaign setting.  Stripped down, not crunchy, just the results, and the "DM Guide" has all the numbers.  I like the "Powered by Hero" concept and term, it feels good and gives the information needed: this is a product based on Hero rules without all the math.

[Nolgroth]

Nolgroth, you leaving us too? That would be a great shame... :-(

 

Not leaving the community. I like it here.

 

Just walking away from Hero itself for an indeterminate amount of time. Thanks for the sentiment though. 

[Rebar]

then you are looking at a power(Darkness) and would need a counter power

 

Darkness vs normal sight countered with IR vision passive or active for flavor

 

I have been it that room(absolute darkenss)at JPL as an explorer scout

flash light would only work for 10 feet to see the floor

the room was in effect the power Darkness

 

You are an astonishingly tall person.

[Sean Waters]

Not leaving the community. I like it here.

 

Just walking away from Hero itself for an indeterminate amount of time. Thanks for the sentiment though. 

 

This is why I have extended hiatus periods: I just get too involved and suddenly it is 3am.

[Beast]

why you think that was a tale?

You are an astonishingly tall person.

[massey]

why you think that was a tale?

 

He said you were tall.  Because the flashlight only let you see 10 feet to the floor.  You stand very high up.

[Beast]

more like there was nothing in the room to judge distance against, and it was a very large room

He said you were tall.  Because the flashlight only let you see 10 feet to the floor.  You stand very high up.

[Sean Waters]

Anyway...

 

Powers that would simplify Hero?

 

Universal Power

This power lets you do anything that the GM lets you.  You don't buy it with character points, you buy it with beers.

 

I may be circumventing the point here...

[Cantriped]

I would call that power "Cosmic Fiat"

[Chris Goodwin]

Anyway...

 

Powers that would simplify Hero?

 

Universal Power

This power lets you do anything that the GM lets you.  You don't buy it with character points, you buy it with beers.

 

I may be circumventing the point here...

 

But you don't need that power.  You can use Transform and/or Extradimensional Movement...

[Surrealone]

But you don't need that power.  You can use Transform and/or Extradimensional Movement...

Transform beer into urine???