Defenses in Standard Superhero level games

[assault]

Problem mostly solved, I think.

 

Thanks for everyone's ideas and input.

[Nothere]

As to actual range I've never really found a better formula than the one from the 4e book. a 12d6 campaign character would have about 24 pd and the toughest maxed out at 30. Course the problem is with people able to spend points anyway they want, theres nothing to stop Batman from having the same pd as Superman. Or would you as a Gm decree a agile spiderman type couldn't buy the max allowed pd?

[assault]

As to actual range I've never really found a better formula than the one from the 4e book. a 12d6 campaign character would have about 24 pd and the toughest maxed out at 30. Course the problem is with people able to spend points anyway they want, theres nothing to stop Batman from having the same pd as Superman. Or would you as a Gm decree a agile spiderman type couldn't buy the max allowed pd?

 

I wouldn't stress. I've had a lot of fun with "fast bricks".

 

The compromises involved tend to stop them from being overpowered.

[Matt the Bruins]

Finally, 400 point characters aren't "Gods", no matter how you build them.

Take a look at Hyper-Man's 400 point build for the cinematic Superman before you commit to that statement. My jaw dropped at how well it could simulate everything he did in the recent movies with the standard point total.

 

I can see Batman using flexible/well-articulated body armor that would give him enough rPD to withstand most firearms. Unpowered characters that don't have 10-digit bank accounts they can channel into gear R&D probably aren't going to be using that solution, though.

[Cassandra]

Batman

 

Val Char Cost

20 STR 10

18 DEX 24

20 CON 20

12 BODY 4

18 INT 8

11 EGO 2

20 PRE 10

18 COM 4

8 PD 4

6 ED 2

4 SPD 12

8 REC 0

40 END 0

32 STUN 0

Total Characteristics Cost: 100 Points

 

Cost Powers

3 Acrobatics 13-

3 AK[iNT]: Gotham City 13-

3 Breakfall 13-

3 Contortionist 13-

3 Criminology 13-

3 Deduction 13-

3 Disguise 13-

3 Fast Draw 13-

3 High Society 13-

3 Lockpicking 13-

4 Martial Block

4 Martial Dodge

4 Martial Strike

3 Martial Throw

10 Money: Wealthy

5 Offensive Strike

3 Security Systems 13-

3 Shadowing 13-

3 Stealth 13-

3 Streetwise 13-

3 Tactics 13-

Total SKills Cost: 75 Points

 

Cost Powers

18 Armor +8 rPD +8 rED, OIF: Costume

40 Multipower (60 Points) OIF: Utility Belt (-1/2)

2 u) Darkness [sight] AE 4", [12c/Duration 1 Turn] (+1/4), OAF: Smoke Bombs (-1)

2 u EB 4d6, AE One Hex (+1/2), NND [LS: Self Contained] (+1), [16c] (-0), OAF: Sleep Gas (-1)

2 u) EB 8d6, Invisible [Hearing] (+1/4), [16c] (-0), OAF: Batarangs (-1)

1 u) Gliding 10", OIF: Cape (-1/2)

2 u) Entangle 5d6 DEF 5, [16c] (-0), OAF: Bolas (-1)

1 u) Growth: Length 2", Width 1", Mass 800kg, BODY/STUN +3, DCV -2, PER +2, Reach +1", STR +15, KNB -3",

No END Persistent (+1), OIF: Batmobile (-1/2)

1 u) Running +10", 8x NCM, No END (+1/2), OIF: Batmobile (-1/2)

1 u) Swinging 10", OIF: Swing Line (-1/2)

3 ES: UV Sight, OIF: Cowl (-1/2)

2 Running +1"

Total Powers Cost: 75 Points

 

Total Cost: 250 Points

 

150+ Disadvantages

5 DNPC: Alfred Pennyworth (Useful Normal) 8-

10 DNPC: James Gordon (Unaware Slightly Less Powerful) 8-

5 Hunted: Catwoman (As Powerful/Mild) 8-

10 Hunted: Joker (As Powerful) 8-

20 Normal Characteristics Maxima

20 PsyL: Code versus Killing (Common/Total)

20 PsyL: Protective of Innocents (Very Common/Strong)

10 SocL: Secret Identity [bruce Wayne] (Occasionally/Major)

Total Disadvantages Cost: 250 Points

 

 

This is a 5th Edition version of Batman as he began his career.  His Costume uses heavy body armor for protection, backed up by his Martial Arts Dodge and Block.  The Batmobile is represented by Growth and Running slots in his Utility Belt Multipower and is his primary source of transportation.  He uses his Swinging or Gliding when employing his EB, EB AE One Hex NND, or Entangle.  Tactically he will use his Darkness first, then his Tactics to determine best mode of attack.

[Tasha]

As to actual range I've never really found a better formula than the one from the 4e book. a 12d6 campaign character would have about 24 pd and the toughest maxed out at 30. Course the problem is with people able to spend points anyway they want, theres nothing to stop Batman from having the same pd as Superman. Or would you as a Gm decree a agile spiderman type couldn't buy the max allowed pd?

 

Actually the book recommends x2 DC to 2.5xDC as the range. From there you can extrapolate the average Con (ie one more than the Average Stun done by a DC12 attack minus defenses. ie 21 CON). Most stuff assumed fully resistant defenses or close enough to fully resistant defenses to be negligable).

 

Dex 23 was about the average in those days. so CV 8+1 skill level equals CV 9 (Assuming 2 skill levels that can be applied to one or both).

 

My Signature actually explains the numbers. Still sick a bit which reduces my ability to post long things.

[massey]

My standards are going to be different from most other people.  My writeups tend to be on the high end as far as power level.  A lot of people aren't going to like this post.  The thing is, these 3 characters exist in 3 separate campaigns, with their own guidelines and power levels.

 

 

Batman is not a weak character.  He's one of the best known comic book characters in the world.  Even though he's a "normal human", he's competitive against superpowered opponents.  His build has to take that into account.  He should be at the top end of Champions martial artist characters.  And he's expensive.

 

In a standard Champions setting, Batman probably runs around punching and kicking for 11 or 12D6.  20 or 25 Str, Offensive Strike, a few martial arts DCs.  That puts him right there with a standard Champions martial artist.  Batman has near-campaign max Dexterity and Speed.  He's got ~15 base PD and ED, with 2 levels of Combat Luck, for a total of 21/21 defense.  He's got a Con of 23 or so, meaning that he can (on average) take a 12D6 attack without being stunned.  He's still going to want to dodge those if possible, because a mildly better than average roll can cost him his next action, and Bats probably only has about 45 Stun or so.  One good roll, and then knockback into a solid wall, and Bats may be out of the fight.  I'd give him a base 9 or 10 OCV/DCV, and then 3 or 4 levels with martial arts, plus maneuver bonuses.  He can be really hard to hit when he wants to be.  Getting a 15 DCV with martial dodge would not be unfair.

 

In a street level, Gritty Gotham style campaign, you drop him down a bit.  Now his offensive strike is 10D6, he's got 17 total defense (3 res), 20 Con, and he's maybe 8 or 9 OCV/DCV with one or two combat levels.  Still dangerous as all hell to street crime, but he's not facing any normal supervillains in this game.  This is the guy who fights the Mad Hatter, and in the big confrontation he has to fight his way through a half-dozen mind controlled college athletes.  Maybe this Batman is really tired after a long night adventuring with the JLA or something, but really he's just operating in a more realistic genre than standard comic book.

 

In a high powered game (15D6 or 16D6 campaign or so), where he's got to fight Ben Grimm or Kalibak or something like that, High Powered Batman comes out.  This guy doesn't necessarily punch or kick any harder, though he probably does get a "superhero nerve strike" which is like a 6 or 7D6 NND.  But his real attack powers now come from his utility belt.  Instead of being 3" Darkness, continuing charges, and stuff like that, his utility belt now has 8D6 NND Continuous knockout gas.  He gets 15D6 AE: One Hex explosive batarangs.  His attack power goes up because he's got the really nasty gadgets.  He might add on a 5/5 PD/ED "armored costume" (putting him at 26/26 Def), and his Con probably goes up to 25.  He gets an overall level or two.  Now it's even more important for Batman to play the dodge/block game, but at least he can hang in there offensively thanks to the utility belt.

 

--

 

Cyclops and Ben Grimm are a lot less likely to go around in solo books, so they aren't really in need of tiered writeups.  If the X-Men are a 12D6 campaign (and I think they are, with a few exceptions) I'd give Cyke a 15D6 or so energy blast, with extra juice for emergencies.  Cyke can probably hit 20D6 when he uses his "costs extra End" dice.  He's definitely a glass cannon.  His defenses are maybe just a hair below standard Batman, maybe equal.  But since he throws out so many dice, he's more likely to get hit, and his Speed isn't as good.  He's powerful enough that he can end a lot of fights if he gets in a big blast from his eyebeams, but he has to stay dodging to make sure he gets that chance.  I don't think his Dex is that high, a lot of people go before him.  But he's got a great OCV, he very rarely misses.  Give him a 12 OCV, and like a 7 DCV.

 

Cyclops' player was forced into a suboptimal build by the GM because he kept asking if he could go outside of the campaign limits.  The GM was like "that's fine, but you've got to have defenses that are a little lower, and you can't buy up your DCV to a crazy level".  And the player was like "woo-hoo!!!  20D6!"  But the X-Men campaign has a lot of weird power constructs, and some really high active point abilities floating around, so it's not really that unbalancing.

 

Ben Grimm runs around in a higher level game.  Human Torch, Mr Fantastic, Invisible Woman, all of them have really effective power sets.  These guys have been playing in the same game for like 20+ years and have more XP than they know what to do with.  Ben probably hits for 15 or 16D6, and he's got defenses in the high 30s.  All resistant, hardened.  40 Con, 20+ Body.  Ben is a brick's brick.  And his OCV is pretty good (maybe 9 or 10 with levels), he knows how to fight.  But he's probably only a 4 or 5 Spd, and he doesn't have good movement.  Now he's probably got like 70 or 80 Stun, so he's a pain in the ass to knockout.  But yeah, he really is that powerful.

 

 

--

 

Batman vs Ben -- Bruce is going to hold action on The Thing's phases so that he doesn't get plastered with an improvised area of effect attack, like a thrown car.  He'll abort to dodge or dive for cover as appropriate.  He'll try a variety of different utility belt powers like gas or thermite pellets to blind him, until he finds something that works.  Ultimately he may have to use some sort of environmental attack on Ben to beat him (like busting open a fire hydrant to soak him, and then bringing down some power lines on top of him).  His normal punches and kicks won't do squat, even for High Powered Batman.  And without a great damage roll, he may not have enough charges of the good stuff in his utility belt to work through Ben's high stun total.

 

Batman vs Cyclops -- Batman needs to strike from surprise.  Scott is good enough to hit Batman cleanly, and if that full strength optic blast makes contact, it's over.  In hand to hand though, Batman can totally stomp Cyke.  He'll move in on a phase when he has a Speed advantage, like 6 and 7.  Or he'll get Scott in a martial grab/headlock from behind and just choke him out.

 

Cyclops vs The Thing -- Cyclops is roughly equal in Dex and Spd.  The X-Man might have a slight advantage in those stats, but not by much.  The problem he's got is that he's going against a character who is built on more points, for a higher D6 game.  The Thing's job is to soak damage while Mr. Fantastic builds a gadget to save the day.  Cyclops' best bet here is to give Ben a full power, pushed, haymakered attack and hope that he rolls well.  He might do enough damage to Stun Ben, but he might not.  And if Ben has some Brick Trick like Missile Deflection "grit your teeth and shrug it off", then Cyke is in real trouble.  If he can't down him in one shot, he needs to keep his distance, try to sneak away to a place Ben can't get to (on top of a building down the street, etc), and wear him down.

 

Cyclops vs Batman -- Cyke can win this if he gets a clear shot.  He needs to stay on his toes and stay away from areas with hiding places.  One good blast is all you need, dodge those batarangs and keep Bruce out of hand to hand combat with you.

 

The Thing vs Batman -- Ben has the advantage in endurance and striking power.  Be aggressive, look for him to make a mistake.  Get into hand to hand and stay there.  Hope for a low roll on your to-hit.  If Bats chooses to go first on a shared phase, grab a large object and hit him with it.  He may want to use the environment as well, look for Ben to collapse an abandoned building on the Caped Crusader or something.  He should be ready to hold his breath and just forego recoveries in case Batman has some knockout pellets in hand.

 

The Thing vs Cyclops -- Ben is golden here as long as he doesn't catch a face-full of maximum optic blast.  He should grab a truck or something to shield himself from the mega-attack, and work to get as close as possible.  If Ben ever gets to hand to hand range, the fight is over, and they both know it.  Throw cars or trees to keep Scott off balance, make him burn his phases by shooting projectiles out of the air.  If Scott manages to keep his distance, break line of sight by ducking into an alley or something and then try to get within charge range before breaking cover and rushing him.

[Cassandra]

My standards are going to be different from most other people.  My writeups tend to be on the high end as far as power level.  A lot of people aren't going to like this post.  The thing is, these 3 characters exist in 3 separate campaigns, with their own guidelines and power levels.

 

 

Batman is not a weak character.  He's one of the best known comic book characters in the world.  Even though he's a "normal human", he's competitive against superpowered opponents.  His build has to take that into account.  He should be at the top end of Champions martial artist characters.  And he's expensive.

 

In a standard Champions setting, Batman probably runs around punching and kicking for 11 or 12D6.  20 or 25 Str, Offensive Strike, a few martial arts DCs.  That puts him right there with a standard Champions martial artist.  Batman has near-campaign max Dexterity and Speed.  He's got ~15 base PD and ED, with 2 levels of Combat Luck, for a total of 21/21 defense.  He's got a Con of 23 or so, meaning that he can (on average) take a 12D6 attack without being stunned.  He's still going to want to dodge those if possible, because a mildly better than average roll can cost him his next action, and Bats probably only has about 45 Stun or so.  One good roll, and then knockback into a solid wall, and Bats may be out of the fight.  I'd give him a base 9 or 10 OCV/DCV, and then 3 or 4 levels with martial arts, plus maneuver bonuses.  He can be really hard to hit when he wants to be.  Getting a 15 DCV with martial dodge would not be unfair.

 

In a street level, Gritty Gotham style campaign, you drop him down a bit.  Now his offensive strike is 10D6, he's got 17 total defense (3 res), 20 Con, and he's maybe 8 or 9 OCV/DCV with one or two combat levels.  Still dangerous as all hell to street crime, but he's not facing any normal supervillains in this game.  This is the guy who fights the Mad Hatter, and in the big confrontation he has to fight his way through a half-dozen mind controlled college athletes.  Maybe this Batman is really tired after a long night adventuring with the JLA or something, but really he's just operating in a more realistic genre than standard comic book.

 

In a high powered game (15D6 or 16D6 campaign or so), where he's got to fight Ben Grimm or Kalibak or something like that, High Powered Batman comes out.  This guy doesn't necessarily punch or kick any harder, though he probably does get a "superhero nerve strike" which is like a 6 or 7D6 NND.  But his real attack powers now come from his utility belt.  Instead of being 3" Darkness, continuing charges, and stuff like that, his utility belt now has 8D6 NND Continuous knockout gas.  He gets 15D6 AE: One Hex explosive batarangs.  His attack power goes up because he's got the really nasty gadgets.  He might add on a 5/5 PD/ED "armored costume" (putting him at 26/26 Def), and his Con probably goes up to 25.  He gets an overall level or two.  Now it's even more important for Batman to play the dodge/block game, but at least he can hang in there offensively thanks to the utility belt.

 

--

 

Cyclops and Ben Grimm are a lot less likely to go around in solo books, so they aren't really in need of tiered writeups.  If the X-Men are a 12D6 campaign (and I think they are, with a few exceptions) I'd give Cyke a 15D6 or so energy blast, with extra juice for emergencies.  Cyke can probably hit 20D6 when he uses his "costs extra End" dice.  He's definitely a glass cannon.  His defenses are maybe just a hair below standard Batman, maybe equal.  But since he throws out so many dice, he's more likely to get hit, and his Speed isn't as good.  He's powerful enough that he can end a lot of fights if he gets in a big blast from his eyebeams, but he has to stay dodging to make sure he gets that chance.  I don't think his Dex is that high, a lot of people go before him.  But he's got a great OCV, he very rarely misses.  Give him a 12 OCV, and like a 7 DCV.

 

Cyclops' player was forced into a suboptimal build by the GM because he kept asking if he could go outside of the campaign limits.  The GM was like "that's fine, but you've got to have defenses that are a little lower, and you can't buy up your DCV to a crazy level".  And the player was like "woo-hoo!!!  20D6!"  But the X-Men campaign has a lot of weird power constructs, and some really high active point abilities floating around, so it's not really that unbalancing.

 

Ben Grimm runs around in a higher level game.  Human Torch, Mr Fantastic, Invisible Woman, all of them have really effective power sets.  These guys have been playing in the same game for like 20+ years and have more XP than they know what to do with.  Ben probably hits for 15 or 16D6, and he's got defenses in the high 30s.  All resistant, hardened.  40 Con, 20+ Body.  Ben is a brick's brick.  And his OCV is pretty good (maybe 9 or 10 with levels), he knows how to fight.  But he's probably only a 4 or 5 Spd, and he doesn't have good movement.  Now he's probably got like 70 or 80 Stun, so he's a pain in the ass to knockout.  But yeah, he really is that powerful.

 

 

--

 

Batman vs Ben -- Bruce is going to hold action on The Thing's phases so that he doesn't get plastered with an improvised area of effect attack, like a thrown car.  He'll abort to dodge or dive for cover as appropriate.  He'll try a variety of different utility belt powers like gas or thermite pellets to blind him, until he finds something that works.  Ultimately he may have to use some sort of environmental attack on Ben to beat him (like busting open a fire hydrant to soak him, and then bringing down some power lines on top of him).  His normal punches and kicks won't do squat, even for High Powered Batman.  And without a great damage roll, he may not have enough charges of the good stuff in his utility belt to work through Ben's high stun total.

 

Batman vs Cyclops -- Batman needs to strike from surprise.  Scott is good enough to hit Batman cleanly, and if that full strength optic blast makes contact, it's over.  In hand to hand though, Batman can totally stomp Cyke.  He'll move in on a phase when he has a Speed advantage, like 6 and 7.  Or he'll get Scott in a martial grab/headlock from behind and just choke him out.

 

Cyclops vs The Thing -- Cyclops is roughly equal in Dex and Spd.  The X-Man might have a slight advantage in those stats, but not by much.  The problem he's got is that he's going against a character who is built on more points, for a higher D6 game.  The Thing's job is to soak damage while Mr. Fantastic builds a gadget to save the day.  Cyclops' best bet here is to give Ben a full power, pushed, haymakered attack and hope that he rolls well.  He might do enough damage to Stun Ben, but he might not.  And if Ben has some Brick Trick like Missile Deflection "grit your teeth and shrug it off", then Cyke is in real trouble.  If he can't down him in one shot, he needs to keep his distance, try to sneak away to a place Ben can't get to (on top of a building down the street, etc), and wear him down.

 

Cyclops vs Batman -- Cyke can win this if he gets a clear shot.  He needs to stay on his toes and stay away from areas with hiding places.  One good blast is all you need, dodge those batarangs and keep Bruce out of hand to hand combat with you.

 

The Thing vs Batman -- Ben has the advantage in endurance and striking power.  Be aggressive, look for him to make a mistake.  Get into hand to hand and stay there.  Hope for a low roll on your to-hit.  If Bats chooses to go first on a shared phase, grab a large object and hit him with it.  He may want to use the environment as well, look for Ben to collapse an abandoned building on the Caped Crusader or something.  He should be ready to hold his breath and just forego recoveries in case Batman has some knockout pellets in hand.

 

The Thing vs Cyclops -- Ben is golden here as long as he doesn't catch a face-full of maximum optic blast.  He should grab a truck or something to shield himself from the mega-attack, and work to get as close as possible.  If Ben ever gets to hand to hand range, the fight is over, and they both know it.  Throw cars or trees to keep Scott off balance, make him burn his phases by shooting projectiles out of the air.  If Scott manages to keep his distance, break line of sight by ducking into an alley or something and then try to get within charge range before breaking cover and rushing him.

 

All these examples are why my Batman has Darkness (Smoke Grenades), EB NND (Sleep Gas), and Tactics.

[massey]

All these examples are why my Batman has Darkness (Smoke Grenades), EB NND (Sleep Gas), and Tactics.

 

Sure, mine does too.  But Cyclops and Ben also have Tactics.  Cyke is the leader of a premier superteam and the FF are some of the biggest users of teamwork that I know.  They're all going to try to put themselves in the most advantageous situation possible.  Remember that gas attacks are going to be limited because Ben has superbreath (though not Superman class, it's still enough to blow solid wooden doors off their hinges).

[Hyper-Man]

I think we are getting off topic a little bit. The original request was for help balancing rookie 350/5e 400/6e characters modeled on famous characters. Not actually creating experienced current versions of those same characters. Those are 2 completely different exercises.

 

HM

[massey]

I think we are getting off topic a little bit. The original request was for help balancing rookie 350/5e 400/6e characters modeled on famous characters. Not actually creating experienced current versions of those same characters. Those are 2 completely different exercises.

 

HM

 

Yeah, but post #5 brought up those 3 characters, with no indication that it was rookie versions of them.

 

 

Edit:  But, to just go back and try to swing things around, here you go:

 

 

Low defenses should be in the 1.75 to 2x damage class range.  But the character should have some way, either high DCV or Desolid or Invis, to avoid spending every phase of every fight stunned.

Medium defenses should be about 2x to 2.5x damage class.

High defenses should be about 2.5 to 3x damage class.  At that point you can slack off on DCV because it's not as important to you anymore.

 

So for a 12D6 game, you'd be looking at:

Low defense -- 20 to 24 Def

Medium defense -- 24 to 30 Def

High defense -- 30 to 36 Def

 

For that level campaign, Con scores should generally be in the low 20s or above.  Just because you've got 35 PD that doesn't mean you should have a 15 Con.  Don't skimp on that.

[assault]

Yeah, but post #5 brought up those 3 characters, with no indication that it was rookie versions of them.

 

Unintentional. I intended them to be comparable, representing archetypical Bricks, Blasters and Martial Artists.

 

(Blasters without force fields, anyway).

 

That is:

 

Brick: high DEF, big attack.

Martial Artist: low DEF, small attack, agile. (Physically tougher than Blaster).

Blaster: low DEF, big attack, less agile.

 

The issue is not so much the Martial Artist, but the Blaster.

 

I've pretty much sorted out the problem to my satisfaction now, although I need to rework my default characteristics sets.