An area power that causes foes to trip.

[DepartureDave]

Hi there, I'm pretty new to the Hero System and I'm trying to figure something out.  I'm building some minions on a theme of gambling and rolling, and most of their abilities will be dice-related.

The En-four-cers will throw down handfuls of relatively mundane D4s (four sided dice) as they escape in order to trip up/slow the heroes down, but I'm not sure what kind of power that would be. Change Environment, maybe?

Thanks in advance. =)

[doccowie]

I believe the traditional first suggestion is Minor Transform Humanoid into Prone Humanoid....

[Chris Goodwin]

Change Environment is correct.

[Christopher R Taylor]

There are a lot of ways, as always.

If you want to slow their running, Change Environment is a great effect, just buy the area size you want, and the element "-1 meter of movement" for running.  You're not going to want a huge amount, since they don't stop entirely, but 6 or so meters would half movement speed.  You can even put a limitation of "max effect half movement" so no matter how slow the are, it doesn't reduce them to full stop, I'd say that's worth a -¼ limit.

 

If you want to make the targets actually fall over there are a few ways:

• Entangle with no body and very low defenses, so while in the area anyone below a certain strength (you could buy it to effect dexterity instead with a -½ limitation) will have to make half moves to go anywhere, simulating falling over.
• Telekinesis with a "throw only" limitation (-½ at least, probably -1) that just keeps putting people on the ground over and over while in the radius.  This is going to be somewhat costly with constant, area effect, and enough strength to throw most targets reliably.
• The Cosmetic transform mentioned above, although that's going to be the most expensive one because you'll need a lot of dice and the "variable result" to make them individual humans, not one single specific one.
• Teleport usable as an attack 1m, with the position shift adder, so everyone who goes in the area is forced onto the ground; this is cheap but the GM might balk.

[Ninja-Bear]

Change Environment is correct.

Yes this. Have it -x to Dex.

 

The reason why I got fifth was to build marbles for ninjas to trip people was alot easier with expanded change enviroment than the traditional ways.

[Cantriped]

Out of curiosity, which edition are you using? 5th, 6th, ​Champions Complete​?

 

Regardless, Change Environment is probably the best choice of base power for this sort of attack. It should have Area of Effect, and Long-Lasting (1 Hour) (because that is how long, on average, it will be before somebody bothers to clean them up, even if they are in the way). If you want to reduce the movement rate of enemies Running through the area buy -Xm Running as a Combat Effect. If you want them to trip the target we get into a grey area of the rules, but buying -X to Dex Rolls allows you to force the target to immediately make a Dex Roll. The grey area is that Change Environment doesn't define what happens when they fail said rolls... I would use the penalties described for being at 0 Dex, or the description of Dex Rolls from the Characteristics section (CC 15) as a guideline for what happens when a character fails a Dex Roll triggered by Change Environment.

[Christopher R Taylor]

buying -X to Dex Rolls allows you to force the target to immediately make a Dex Roll. The grey area is that Change Environment doesn't define what happens when they fail said rolls

 

 

Yeah, and that's a problem with this build.  So they fail their roll, then what?

[Cantriped]

RAW: Absolutely nothing...

RAI: Whatever the GM feels is appropriate to the special effect of the Change Environment, and the type of Roll failed. For example, in Champions Powers​ there is an Ice Sheet power (CP 172) built as Change Environment to impose a -4 penalty to Dex Rolls. The Description indicates that if the target fails their Roll, they have "slipped and fallen down".

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah for such an extensive and careful description of rules in the big books, its odd that was pretty much left out.

 

And the concept of it forcing a modified roll bothers me in another way: CE was great for creating an area where things just didn't work as well, a modifier to rolls in this zone (like a low-magic zone that causes a penalty of -2 to magic skill rolls). Except now it doesn't do that, it forces a roll.  You can't drain skill rolls, by the rules, so there's no mechanic in the game now.

[Chris Goodwin]

Yeah for such an extensive and careful description of rules in the big books, its odd that was pretty much left out.

 

And the concept of it forcing a modified roll bothers me in another way: CE was great for creating an area where things just didn't work as well, a modifier to rolls in this zone (like a low-magic zone that causes a penalty of -2 to magic skill rolls). Except now it doesn't do that, it forces a roll.  You can't drain skill rolls, by the rules, so there's no mechanic in the game now.

 

I was going to try to respond one way or the other, but I realized that I didn't exactly know the difference myself.  So I posted a rules question.

[Ninja-Bear]

Yeah, and that's a problem with this build. So they fail their roll, then what?

 

They fall. That is what the OP wanted

[DepartureDave]

Change Environment is correct.

Great! I wasn't sure but it seemed fitting.

 

 

There are a lot of ways, as always.

If you want to slow their running, Change Environment is a great effect, just buy the area size you want, and the element "-1 meter of movement" for running.  You're not going to want a huge amount, since they don't stop entirely, but 6 or so meters would half movement speed.  You can even put a limitation of "max effect half movement" so no matter how slow the are, it doesn't reduce them to full stop, I'd say that's worth a -¼ limit.

 

If you want to make the targets actually fall over there are a few ways:

• Entangle with no body and very low defenses, so while in the area anyone below a certain strength (you could buy it to effect dexterity instead with a -½ limitation) will have to make half moves to go anywhere, simulating falling over.
• Telekinesis with a "throw only" limitation (-½ at least, probably -1) that just keeps putting people on the ground over and over while in the radius.  This is going to be somewhat costly with constant, area effect, and enough strength to throw most targets reliably.
• The Cosmetic transform mentioned above, although that's going to be the most expensive one because you'll need a lot of dice and the "variable result" to make them individual humans, not one single specific one.
• Teleport usable as an attack 1m, with the position shift adder, so everyone who goes in the area is forced onto the ground; this is cheap but the GM might balk.

-X Move Change Environment and no-body Entangle seem to fit best (benefit of being simple while everyone's learning the rules), though the other uses are definitely something I'll have to think on some more for future encounters.

 

Out of curiosity, which edition are you using? 5th, 6th, ​Champions Complete​?

 

Regardless, Change Environment is probably the best choice of base power for this sort of attack. It should have Area of Effect, and Long-Lasting (1 Hour) (because that is how long, on average, it will be before somebody bothers to clean them up, even if they are in the way). If you want to reduce the movement rate of enemies Running through the area buy -Xm Running as a Combat Effect. If you want them to trip the target we get into a grey area of the rules, but buying -X to Dex Rolls allows you to force the target to immediately make a Dex Roll. The grey area is that Change Environment doesn't define what happens when they fail said rolls... I would use the penalties described for being at 0 Dex, or the description of Dex Rolls from the Characteristics section (CC 15) as a guideline for what happens when a character fails a Dex Roll triggered by Change Environment.

I've got the PDFs for 6e1 and 6e2, as well as the hard copy for Champions Complete. I've been flipping through them and trawling the forums as I try to figure things out.

 

-X Dex, huh? That's an interesting idea.  Lots of good ones in this thread so far. Thanks for the rapid response, guys! =D

[Ninja-Bear]

Yeah for such an extensive and careful description of rules in the big books, its odd that was pretty much left out.

 

And the concept of it forcing a modified roll bothers me in another way: CE was great for creating an area where things just didn't work as well, a modifier to rolls in this zone (like a low-magic zone that causes a penalty of -2 to magic skill rolls). Except now it doesn't do that, it forces a roll. You can't drain skill rolls, by the rules, so there's no mechanic in the game now.

Ummm fifth always forced a roll where approriate. And without looking I think I could also modify a roll.

edit im.looking at fifth rev.

[Christopher R Taylor]

no-body Entangle seem to fit best

 

 

The advantage of the entangle one is that it makes characters ½DCV while pinned down which simulates being prone and its a pretty simple mechanic.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

I believe the traditional first suggestion is Minor Transform Humanoid into Prone Humanoid....

 

I thought it was Extra Dimensional Movement to dimension where character is prone.

[Asperion]

I got wondering about the Drain power.

 

Xd6 Drain: Ground Movement Only (-1\4)

 

The SRX would be that the character is throwing the d4s and making the target loose footing.

[Ninja-Bear]

The advantage of the entangle one is that it makes characters ½DCV while pinned down which simulates being prone and its a pretty simple mechanic.

Did they change entangle in 6th that it can be used against other characreristics other than strength?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Entangle vs Ego used to be how you did mental paralysis, so the concept of buying entangles vs other stats is pretty well established.  Just a simple extension of that reasoning and you get entangles that you can avoid with DEX.

[Chris Goodwin]

Steve answered!  I asked if there was a mechanical difference between requiring a roll and providing penalties.  His answer: 

 

"No. As noted in the CE rules, "If applicable, the combat effect includes forcing an affected character to make at least one Characteristic, Skill, or PER Roll." That's just not always applicable, as in a couple of the examples you cite."

[Christopher R Taylor]

So, I don't understand.  A Change Environment CAN be used to force a roll or MUST be?

[Netzilla]

Sounds like it's SFX-dependent.  A patch of ice makes sense for forcing a DEX roll each time it's crossed.  A squeaky floor  that penalized stealth rolls wouldn't force you to make a stealth roll every time you crossed it.

[Christopher R Taylor]

That's the way I'd run it, but the rules aren't very clear and that explanation wasn't either, to me :/

[Lucius]

Sounds like it's SFX-dependent.  A patch of ice makes sense for forcing a DEX roll each time it's crossed.  A squeaky floor  that penalized stealth rolls wouldn't force you to make a stealth roll every time you crossed it.

But would squeak every time you cross without making a Stealth Roll.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary suggests Mental Illusions, Area Effect....oh wait, wrong kind of "trip"

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

But would squeak every time you cross without making a Stealth Roll.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary suggests Mental Illusions, Area Effect....oh wait, wrong kind of "trip"

 

"I can smell the floor squeaking!"

[Chris Goodwin]

So, I don't understand.  A Change Environment CAN be used to force a roll or MUST be?

 

Can be, if the circumstances, special effect, and so on, call for it.  So the slippery ice patch forces a roll, while the low mana area just reduces your Magic Roll.  There's no mechanical difference between requiring a roll and adding penalties, which was the question I asked.