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IndianaJoe3

Building a Light spell is harder than I thought

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Why would buying a 'flamethrower effect' through a focus provide any additional free effect that someone like the Human Torch has to PAY FOR?

 

Human Torch doesn't have to pay for anything different.  Power emanates from him: moves with him.  Power at a distance: buy mobile

Focus with power that emnates from it: moves with it.  Power that comes from the focus but is used at a distance: buy mobile.

 

In any case, as you say the rules note:
 

Quote

Ordinarily a Constant Area-affecting power cannot move once established, unless it has the No Range Limitation so that it “sticks to” the character generating it and moves as he moves

 

Now, clearly a light spell attached to a focus is.... no range, correct?  You can throw that no range item, which is no different than the rules elsewhere.

 

There's really no conflict here.  Put a power on a focus, it is part of that focus and moves with it.

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Wow.

 

That's a neat house rule.

 

You ignore the main points of my first two posts and get hung up on the afterthought third added only to try and help you see your folly.

 

And I'm still waiting to see a page number cite in support of your focus interpretation. Bet you can't find one because it doesn't exist.

 

 

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On 3/14/2017 at 10:18 PM, Cantriped said:

While its true Light goes on any given object, and therefore it could technically be represented with a Focus of Opportunity. The Spell normally allows you to force objects to shine, including objects carried/owned/bought by your enemies, and that strikes me as being outside the bounds of what Foci of Opportunity were intended to be used for. Foci of Opportunity are generally intended to be Personal, because it typically represents an ability to use a mundane object in an unintended/impossible way. Besides that, aren't there clarifications in the 6th edition core rulebooks specifically discouraging the use of the Universal Foci rules to gain the benefits of Usable By Others (and by proxy Usable As Attack) without paying for it on powers intended to be used on others?

 

CC/FHC doesn't actually say anything of the sort... but I know I've read such somewhere. Regardless it seems a highly abusive to expect to gain the benefits of a +1 1/2 Advantage from taking a -1/2 limitation.

 

Also that brings up the point that my previous build can be used on People, not just objects. Since pretty much every enemy is going to have some object or another which can be targeted, Only On Objects is likely only a -1/2 Limitation. If you apply Only On Objects to Light; change cost to 26 points, or 19 points with casting limitations.

 

This was a response from a year ago to this:

 

   On 3/14/2017 at 9:48 PM, Christopher Taylor said: 

Light goes on a focus, just build it as an OIF (useful nearby focus) and now you don't have to worry about range or anything.  Its like giving someone your flashlight; they control the focus, they control the power.

 

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hands-holding-sun-1024x686.jpg

 

People think God said "Let there be light." This is a common error. In truth, it said "Let there be light, but first...we must discuss how to build it properly: Images or Change Environment?"

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12 hours ago, Ragitsu said:

hands-holding-sun-1024x686.jpg

 

People think God said "Let there be light." This is a common error. In truth, it said "Let there be light, but first...we must discuss how to build it properly: Images or Change Environment?"

😁But disscuased with whom? I am the great I am! 

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Hyper man I believe you are overly complicating the build.  I’m going to side with Chris Taylor on this. The question was, can I attach a light spell to a rock and throw it? Yes with OIF. Here’s why; Images is already has Range inherently. So for glowing rock thrown down a well, I already have range for free. However mobile would be needed if said wizard wanted the light to move from that rock to another rock in the well to get a better look at the mysterious opening. Iow if you want the light to be put at one point within range and then that source doesn’t move, OIF is fine. However if you want the Ligt to dance to another spot after it’s moved, then you need Mobile.

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Oh and Hyper man, I can only go to Fred for more clairity so 6th may supersede it. In Fred pg 250 under Mobile adavantage it states “Ordinarily a Constant Area-effecting Power cannot move established, unless it has the No Range Limitation so it sticks to the character generating it and moves as he moves. (See pg 101).”paraphrase the part about UAA to make it stick to a target so when he moves the AOE moves with him. Then he talks about how sometimes you want to move a constant power after it’s placed, that’s what Mobile is for.

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The key to your faulty logic is the word 'attach'. Only the UAA Advantage allows a AOE to be attached to a person or object.

 

Also, the Focus Limitation affects the source of a power only, not the target. If I still had access to a laptop I would quote the specific rule but I only have a smartphone for now. See the relevant rules quotes above.

 

If an AOE Images Power wth No Range was built through a Focus, tossing the Focus away would just end the effect.  Think GL Ring.  And the rings are universal foci so someone else could pick it up but they would have to restart the light effect. 

 

If there are still folks who don't believe me and think that the Focus rules replace the need for Mobile or UAA then I suggest asking Steve Long for clarification.

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29 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Oh and Hyper man, I can only go to Fred for more clairity so 6th may supersede it. In Fred pg 250 under Mobile adavantage it states “Ordinarily a Constant Area-effecting Power cannot move established, unless it has the No Range Limitation so it sticks to the character generating it and moves as he moves. (See pg 101).”paraphrase the part about UAA to make it stick to a target so when he moves the AOE moves with him. Then he talks about how sometimes you want to move a constant power after it’s placed, that’s what Mobile is for.

 

Yep that's pretty much the same rule as 6e. No mention about Foci there so I suggest rereading those rules too.

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1 minute ago, Hyper-Man said:

 

Yep that's pretty much the same rule as 6e. No mention about Foci there so I suggest rereading those rules too.

I quoted said Foci rules. Unless no range has changed from what I quoted to something else in 6e proper, I stand by my answer.

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here are some examples of official builds in the Equipment Guide. You need to use either Usable As Attack or Mobile Perception Point to have your Foci work from a distance. Examples below (only including relevant descriptions): 

 

Tracking Bug (but could be swapped out for a Light spell):

 

Images to Radio Group, +4
to PER Rolls, Area Of Effect (64m Radius; +1¼),
Usable As Attack (allows character to “stick” the
Image to a target; +1¼), (76 Active Points); IAF (-½)

 

In this case the Foci (bug) doesn't need Mobile, it moves with the target it is "stuck" too. 

 

Ultraviolet Tracking Spray (but could be swapped out for a Light spell or glow (and in this case the Foci is the spray can)):

 

Images to Ultraviolet Perception,
+4 to PER Rolls, Usable As Attack (allows
character to “stick” the Image to a target; +1¼),
Continuing Charge lasting 1 Week (stops functioning
if target washes himself and his clothes
thoroughly; +½) (60 Active Points); OAF

 

Or Wireless Bug (undercover cop option):

 

OAF (-1), No Range (character
must place bug at perception point before he can
use the power; -½) with "it transmits voices and noises in the
wearer’s vicinity to a nearby receiver. To the
Standard Audio Bug, add Mobile Perception Point."

 

Which shows that even if you place or give the foci to anyone else, you need to add the Mobile Perception point to the focus to have it keep working. 

 

And to get back to more on topic, here is the Create Light (and give to someone else) spell in the 6th Edition spell book:

 

Sight Group Images, +2 to PER Rolls, Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +¼),
Usable As Attack (to “stick” light to defined object; +1¼), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½),
Persistent (+¼) (52 Active Points); OAF (a wand of ivory; -1), Concentration (½ DCV throughout
casting; -½), Extra Time (5 Minutes to cast; -1), Gestures (throughout casting; -½), Incantations
(throughout casting; -½), Only To Attach Light To A Specified Nonliving Object (see text; -½), Only
To Create Light (-1), Requires A Magic Roll (-½), Time Limit (duration of 1 Month; -¼). Total cost:
8 points.

 

In this instance the "Specified non-living object" is not a foci for some reason, but it also doesn't need Mobile or any other similar limitation. Once it is UAA it is considered to be mobile for "free" going where the non-living object it is attached to goes, no matter who is using it. 

 

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I think you are looking at this the wrong way.  Build light as a dispel.  Normal darkness is what -4 PER.  Lets assume that I don't remember.  So four penalty levels is six points.  Now it is a radius 32m +1A but is an explosion -1/2 to the Advantage.  You don't have to make it mobile but if you do another +1/2A.  You can delay the rate the points return at 5/minute +1A.  So a mobile light spell returning at 5/minute is 18 active points, 5 per 6 hours +1A more is 24.

 

Now load up on limitations

Physical Manifestation-1/4L  Whatever you cast it on can be broken or covered negating the effect.

Charges 16 is 0L, four slots (light spells) is -1L

and Does not work in Magical Darkness -1/2L (assuming magical darkness affects are common and mages and priests know they counter light spells)

So 24 points / (1+1.75) = 24*4= 96 / 11 (2*4)+3 = 8&8/11 round up to 9 real points

Only 18 is / (1+1.75) = 18*4= 72 / 11 (2*4)+3 = 6&3/11 round down to 6 real points

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2 hours ago, indy523 said:

I think you are looking at this the wrong way.  Build light as a dispel.  Normal darkness is what -4 PER. 

 

I'm not sure you can use Dispel to dispel any natural occurring darkness (or any other natural occurring condition). I believe Dispel can only be used against other game ruled power effects, so it can be used against the Darkness power, but not against the normal darkness of a cave or night sky. I believe to effect natural conditions you have to use either Change Environment, Transform, or the like. But I might be wrong. 

 

EDIT: I found the relevant ruling in the 6th Ed book...

 

To use Dispel, the character must declare what power or ability he’s trying to Dispel, then make
an Attack Roll. If he succeeds, he rolls and totals the Dispel dice and subtracts the target’s Power
Defense (if any). If the remaining total exceeds the Active Point total of the target power, the target
power is Dispelled — that is, it stops working.Dispel is an all or nothing attack: it either
completely turns off a Power or it has no effect.

 

And...

 

A character with Dispel can turn off another character’s power.

 

So that seems pretty definitive that it can not be used against any natural or normal conditions, only against Powers that an other character or object has. 

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16 hours ago, mallet said:

 

I'm not sure you can use Dispel to dispel any natural occurring darkness (or any other natural occurring condition). I believe Dispel can only be used against other game ruled power effects, so it can be used against the Darkness power, but not against the normal darkness of a cave or night sky. I believe to effect natural conditions you have to use either Change Environment, Transform, or the like. But I might be wrong. 

 

EDIT: I found the relevant ruling in the 6th Ed book...

 

To use Dispel, the character must declare what power or ability he’s trying to Dispel, then make
an Attack Roll. If he succeeds, he rolls and totals the Dispel dice and subtracts the target’s Power
Defense (if any). If the remaining total exceeds the Active Point total of the target power, the target
power is Dispelled — that is, it stops working.Dispel is an all or nothing attack: it either
completely turns off a Power or it has no effect.

 

And...

 

A character with Dispel can turn off another character’s power.

 

So that seems pretty definitive that it can not be used against any natural or normal conditions, only against Powers that an other character or object has. 

 

Why can't it be used that way?  Nowhere does it state you can't dispel natural powers or effects and how do you define natural.  Can you not sap the strength of a tiger with a drain because he is one of mother nature's creatures?  Whose to say that the natural effects of darkness are not just part of God's plan and thus a Dispel can counter it?  The darkness has a defined effect that can be quantified into a point cost.  In this case that is 3 points for every -2 PER roll.  Treat natural darkness the same as any change environment and it can be dispelled.  That determination is up to how you want to play the game i.e. the GM but nowhere does it state you cannot dispel natural effects.  In the end it is what makes sense and I think this makes much more sense than images or change environment.

 

Images is about illusion.  If the point is to make things others see that are really not there then images is fine.  But this does not do that.  It creates light for the purposes of countering a darkness effect so while one could theoretically use images this is not what is happening.

 

Likewise Change Environment really does not work.  It would affect the area evenly.  The mechanic does not have an emanation point.  You would have to buy that in to the power with advantages and limitations.  IF your change environment is to create wind then another party can't just cover up a point in the middle and quell the wind. 

 

Sure you can use these two methods to make the power but it is more clumsy and requires more Active Points than a cantrip normally allows and is to cumbersome.

 

This method I think better defines a light spell used to help others see in the dark.  It costs less points, is more realistic in how the effect works and is cleaner.  So long as everyone knows what it is used for it is fine to use.  Just my opinion. 

Edited by indy523
spelling check

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Even if what you are trying was legal the active cost should be much much higher because natural darkness would also be inherent and have a massive area of effect. The real problem though is WHO to target per the quote above. and remember dispel is all or nothing.

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3 minutes ago, Hyper-Man said:

It's not possible to dispel the absence of something else.

Tell that to Darkon! 😁

(ps jutsaw your previous post. It’ll take sometime for a more through response.)

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2 hours ago, Hyper-Man said:

It's not possible to dispel the absence of something else.

 

So all I have to do is define my powers with a special effect of Cold, and they can't be dispelled?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says, come to the Dark SIde and become Undispellable!

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