Mental Power Defense

[g3taso]

Darkness takes care of mental awareness and mind scan as above. As for the rest, what about keeping it simple. Invisibility to Sight but really visible. More of like he's perfectly visible, but Sight isn't targeting. This seems fair

 

Invisibility to Sight Group  (20 Active Points); Target Visible But Cannot Be Targeted (-1/2)

[Cantriped]

You are welcome to post a follow-up question for Steve. He was usually answers the next morning.

 

HM

CC/FHC are my primary rules references; with 6th edition era books being used as secondary rules references. Since Steve Long doesn't answer CC/FHC related questions, his rulings don't hold any particular weight with me. Therefore the burden of asking such follow-up questions falls on those who actually value his opinion. I simply don't need his approval that badly. Such a follow-up question might be of value to the many other Herophiles on these boards who do use 6e1&2 as their primary rules references, and consider the word of Steve to be gospel.

 

Regardless, I am quite confidant that my interpretation of the RAW (for CC/FHC) is absolutely correct. It meshes with the opinions of everyone else I've asked who isn't an internet herophile (which is, admittedly, a very small sampling). Since I am inevitably the GM for all of my groups, my ruling is likely how it will play in any game I participate in. If, by some miracle, I get invited to somebody else's Hero game, I'll follow whatever ruling they make with minimal argument.

[Cantriped]

Shrouded:  Darkness to Sight and Mental Groups 1" radius, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Invisible Power Effects, Hide effects of Power (Fully Invisible; +2) (56 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Sight Group Only For Avoiding Mental LOS (-1/2)

 

Seems to bypass the issue of "something's blocking my perception of a 2m diameter 50 meters east of here".  Thoughts?

For a partially limited power such as this one, the Darkness To Sight element and the Darkness To Mental Groups should be separated. So:

 

Shrouded II:  Compound Power, All Slots​ Personal Immunity (+1/4), Zero END (+1/2), Fully Invisible (+1)*; No Range (-1/2). Darkness To Sight Group 1m Radius (14 APs); Only To Prevent Establishing Line Of Sight For Mental Powers (-2) ​plus ​Darkness To Mental Group 1m Radius (8 APs). Total Cost:  14 points (9+4).

 

*I don't think you should make the "Target Effect" Imperceptible as well (per Hyper-Man's quoted text in post #36), just making the fact that a Power is in use imperceptible is enough to require that the Mentalist ascertain with another sense that something is amiss when they don't find a mind to lock onto with Mind Scan.

 

It is also worth noting that this power won't follow the character just because it is No Range. Once Established, you have to stand still to remain in the area, and it will turn off once you lose Line of Sight to the power (per CC 43).

To have a similar effect follow you, it needs to be Mobile or you need to use Invisibility instead of Darkness. Either of which will increase the cost significantly.

Using Invisibility instead:

 

Shrouded III:  Invisibility To Sight Group, Zero END (+1/2) (30 APs); Only To Prevent Establishing Line Of Sight For Mental Powers (-2) ​plus ​Invisibility To Mental Group, Zero END (+1/2) (15 APs). Total Cost:  25 points (10+15).

 

This power doesn't need Personal Immunity because unlike Darkness version being Invisible doesn't prevent you from using your own Mental Powers otherwise. Nor does it to be Fully Invisible, because Invisibility is already explicitly noted to be Imperceptible to the sense groups it affects (CC 72). This power will also follow you (unlike Darkness), but costs a bit more.

[g3taso]

Sorry, I was editing that when you responded to it. Your point about the nonmobile nature of Darkness is damning. 

[tiger]

Invis to mental group could work, I have a little issue with darkness only because it's more of an attack against others not so much something you put on yourself, although no real reason it couldn't be used.

 

By the same token to be able to access the effects chart of Mind Scan you have to make a successful attack roll OMCV vs DMCV, so one could purchase Mental Combat Skill Levels, Only VS Mind Scan. The limitation level would be up to the GM but if you using it to increase DMCV only and only against Mind Scan I would think that a -1 would be fair.

 

(Forgive me if this has already be mentioned. sped read the posts)

[Balabanto]

Sorry, I was editing that when you responded to it. Your point about the nonmobile nature of Darkness is damning. 

Darkness can move with the darkness generator. It just can't go anywhere else. If your darkness has no range, and has a point of origin of you, it goes where you go. You don't run around leaving little darkness bubbles like rabbit poops across the landscape.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I've been asked to weigh in on this discussion, so here I am, weighing in.  

 

How Darkness vs. Mental that is Perceivable to Sight and Hearing (or Sight and Mental, or Invisible Power Effects, etc.) works is the sort of detailed Power-interaction detail that I deliberately left out of CC as much as possible, in order to avoid page count devoted to rarely-occurring situations. For the vast majority of such cases, I reasoned, the best answer will depend on the SFX and the game and GM.

 

However, the release of CC doesn't mean any of the rules regarding rare corner-cases in the 6E rules set changed (other than in the handful of minor changes CC specifically introduced, none of which were Sense-related). CC was just silent about them for the sake of brevity.

 

So I agree with Steve, because this is a matter of clarification of how the 6E rules work, and this area of the 6E rules was not (intentionally) changed in CC (or in FHC, AFAIK). So when looking for clarification of the "RAW" 6E rules engine, his answer referring to 6E1 and 6E2 also applies to CC and FHC.

 

However, I also agree with Cantriped, because the rules of the game are however the GM chooses to apply the RAW.  And also because his take seems logical enough to me that -- were I a player in that game -- I would feel no strong urge to dispute it.

 

My own answer to this situation would be, "Darkness is weird; it depends on the Special Effects of the Darkness and the Mind Scan."  

 

By affecting a particular Sense Group (such as Mental Senses), the Darkness pretty much has to be perceptible to that Sense Group, at least in the negative, for targets within the Darkness area.  In other words, if I create an area of Darkness vs. Normal Sight, and you're within the area, you're going to know that you can't see out of the area.  It's hard to imagine how it could be any other way.

 

However, the visible effect of the Power, as perceived by those not in the Darkness area, is not subject to that consideration.  For example, you could certainly have a Darkness vs. Normal Sight where it was not at all obvious from outside the area why the targets within the Darkness couldn't see, or even that they couldn't see.  Using that same logic, I can certainly imagine a Darkness vs. Mental where someone with Mind Scan outside the affected area wouldn't even know the Darkness was there, even though someone with Mind Scan inside the affected area would be unable to Mind Scan out of it.

[tiger]

Invis to mental group could work, I have a little issue with darkness only because it's more of an attack against others not so much something you put on yourself, although no real reason it couldn't be used.

another thing to consider is why your cloaking the mind, if its just to make sure they can't link then Invis or Darkness could work. But, a GM could rule that if a Mentalist see you physically but not your mind then obviously you have abilities or gadgets. So, your hidden by the cloaking ability but calling attention to yourself at the same time. Just a thought

[Cantriped]

I've been asked to weigh in on this discussion, so here I am, weighing in.  

And I appreciate you weighing in very much! Thank you!

*Resists the urge to get all 'fan-girly', and mostly fails...*

[Christopher R Taylor]

However, the visible effect of the Power, as perceived by those not in the Darkness area, is not subject to that consideration.  For example, you could certainly have a Darkness vs. Normal Sight where it was not at all obvious from outside the area why the targets within the Darkness couldn't see, or even that they couldn't see.  Using that same logic, I can certainly imagine a Darkness vs. Mental where someone with Mind Scan outside the affected area wouldn't even know the Darkness was there, even though someone with Mind Scan inside the affected area would be unable to Mind Scan out of it.

 

 

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was saying: darkness can be bought to be imperceptible to the sense group it affects, but that it normally will be; unless bought with invisible power effects advantage, Mind Scan normally will perceive the darkness area.   But if you purchased it invisible to mental senses it certainly would not perceive that -- since its purchased to be so.

 

But within the area, no matter how its bought, those directly affected by the darkness must necessarily perceive it with the sense it blocks at least in the negative: the sense doesn't work, even if they can't tell why.

 

I think the confusion comes down to the idea of mental senses; since they don't exist in the real world and are entirely imaginary, its a question of trying to figure out what that would "appear" like to that sense.  We know what darkness to sound is like, we know what darkness to sight is like, but we can't know what darkness to ESP is like except at some vague conceptual, theoretical level.  So all we can do is try to apply the same rules and principles that work with the senses we do understand.  How would this work for sight?  Extrapolate that to other senses.

 

The stuff about GMs and their campaign go without saying, of course.  That's one of the base Hero rules.

[Cantriped]

There is also some confusion regarding whether we are discussing the Perceivability of the Power's Activation versus the Perceivability of the "Target Effect" in any given post. For the most part I have been talking about the perceivability of Activation, not the perceivability to "Target Effect". The Target Effect of Darkness being the inability to perceive into, out of, or through the affected area with the affected sense(s)/sense group(s), which as Hyper-Man quoted in post #36 cannot me made Imperceptible and still have the Sensory Power function. By the same token, I imagine that a Barrier power should not be allowed to be both Opaque To [A Sense] and have Fully Imperceptible Target Effects.

 

Someone standing in a Darkness To Mental Group field typically wouldn't be able to use Mind Scan at all, since they cannot perceive out of the field with the affected sense. However if the Darkness power's activation were made Fully Imperceptible, they would have no idea why they couldn't detect any minds regardless of where they scanned. They might, through movement and trial and error (sort of a "move 2m, scan, and repeat" system, like what rogues do to find traps in a dungeon) or confirmation through other senses (such as seeing people moving through the "empty" area they just scanned), be able to figure out that some kind of power is active and get a general idea of the area affected. But being able to deduce that a thing must ​exist isn't that same as being able to perceive that a thing does​ exist (the former usually takes far longer than an average combat, while the latter is a Zero- or Half-Phase Action.

[Cantriped]

Darkness can move with the darkness generator. It just can't go anywhere else. If your darkness has no range, and has a point of origin of you, it goes where you go. You don't run around leaving little darkness bubbles like rabbit poops across the landscape.

 

Nay, it does not. See CC 43 "Once an area-affecting Constant Power is establish, is cannot be moved (except through turning off/re-activating it as above)". The range and origin of the power are irrelevant once the power has been Activated. Per RAW once activated it remains in effect where it was initially established until you lose Line of Sight to the target or target location, stop paying END for it, deactivate it, or are Stunned/Knocked Out.

Being No Range doesn't make an Area Affecting Constant Power Mobile for free. If you want to move an already active Darkness Power it must have been bought Mobile, and moving the area is an Attack Action.

[Hyper-Man]

UAA can be applied to Powers like Change Environment and Darkness to make them 'stick' to a target.

 

HM

[Cantriped]

Per 6e1 359 that is correct (it even explicitly notes Darkness). CC doesn't include that clause, so I wasn't familiar with it. I hate trying to find anything in my copies of 6e1&2.

 

It seems strange that putting "Usable As Attack" on what is already classified as an Attack Power is deemed an appropriate method of making the power 'stick to a target'. But if they're willing to pay +1 1/4 (or more) in Advantage for the privilege of having the power follow the target (so long as they stay within Line of Sight), I'd probably allow it (or something like it).

Of course for my 'CC-As-Core' Campaigns, it wouldn't be UAA (since that rule is omitted from CC's version of UAA and it might be confusing to my players). I might instead rename the modifier something like "Sticks To Target" and give it the same Advantage Value as UAA (Standard Range; +1 3/4), I would then allow them to put No Range and Self Only as limitations on it if desired.

[tiger]

seems like a simply solution would be to purchase +3 or 4 DMCV only vs. Mind Scan. If they fail the attack roll they have no idea your there, unless of course they see you with their eyes, but the before mentioned Darkness would have the same weakness as well.

[Cantriped]

That would be much cheaper than Darkness/Invisibility To Mental Group, but far less absolute a defense as well (especially considering you can include bonuses to Mind Scan OMCV in the APs of the Scan or buy them separately).

[Hyper-Man]

I strongly recommend reading these 2 posts from Simon from this 2016 thread.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/93440-the-state-of-the-rules/?p=2511170

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/93440-the-state-of-the-rules/?p=2510949

 

They are even more relevant now that 6e1 & 6e2 are finally available in POD format.

 

HM

[tiger]

That would be much cheaper than Darkness/Invisibility To Mental Group, but far less absolute a defense as well (especially considering you can include bonuses to Mind Scan OMCV in the APs of the Scan or buy them separately).

True, but if you read Darkness it would mask you but I do believe the Mentalist would know that a area is impenetrable to them, though Invisibility wouldn't have this issue. Of course this is only a consideration if one doesn't want a Mentalist to know they are being blocked.

[Cantriped]

I strongly recommend reading these 2 posts from Simon from this 2016 thread.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/93440-the-state-of-the-rules/?p=2511170

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/93440-the-state-of-the-rules/?p=2510949

 

They are even more relevant now that 6e1 & 6e2 are finally available in POD format.

 

HM

 

Which post numbers were you attempting to link to? When I click through they both take me to the beginning of the thread.

EDIT: I read most of that thread... All I can say is that I found almost every one of Simon's posts in that thread insulting, infuriating, incorrect, and/or childishly written. Except for the bits about the economics of Game Publishing, some of that was actually a valuable contribution to the discussion, and I'm not educated enough on economics to be able to debate its veracity.

[Hyper-Man]

Evidently archived posts can't be directly linked to. 

 

I was attempting point to Simon's 2 big posts. The 2nd one made some very good points.  Simon is an IT guy who is blunt and some people let that upset them.  Oh well.  What I am in agreement with is that the 'Complete' books are only with respect to their respective genres but do NOT represent the full HERO rules.  Dan Simon hosts this website and is probably in contact with Jason Walters (the company owner) more often than Jason actually communicates with the fan base either through this site or social media.  I believe that Jason is way more concerned with moving product.  His decision to make the original 6e stuff available in POD form at least suggests a change on to his original decision to declare the "Complete" book the 'Official" rules. 

 

It's worth noting that the name of this forum has never been changed to Champion Complete and the sub-forum we are on is the HERO System Discussion rather than the Champions one.  

 

HM

[Cantriped]

I think the decision to make more products available for POD has little (if anything) to do with the principle behind the decision to declare CC/FHC Hero Games Flagship Products*, and a lot more to do with wanting to keep the doors open and the lights on. If people are willing to buy older editions of the rules, Hero Games should be providing them the ability to do so. Sure Hero Games won't make as much as they used to make on said products, but they wouldn't have made that money at all considering that many of those books are completely unavailable now (or only available for excessive amounts from E-Bay and Amazon, who don't share their profits with Hero Games).

*I don't actually recall Jason declaring that CC/FHC were the new "official rules" I vaguely recall him stating something along the lines that CC/FHC were Hero Games current flagship products, and that it was hoped that future products (including 3rd party products) would support them.

 

I am well aware that CC/FHC are officially considered to be members of the 6th Edition Ruleset ("Powered By Hero System 6th Edition" is the official line IIRC), and were not written with the intent to totally replace 6th Edition. I have reasons and arguments (outlined in other threads, so I'll omit them here) supporting my opinion that CC/FHC constitute their own edition (albeit one that is extremely similar to the previous edition). However those are irrelevant for the moment.

When I say the CC/FHC are my primary rules references, that doesn't mean they are my only rules references, or the only acceptable primary rules reference. It means that I personally check CC/FHC first, followed by 6th Edition Era Sourcebooks and Supplements. In the case of reprinted or contradictory rules, I give priority to the RAW from CC/FHC. So for example, Classes of Minds and categorized skills (like Animal Handler) don't exist in my games because those rules changed in CC/FHC.

 

Because I am aware that I am in the minority in many of these views, I cite my references exhaustively when posting to rules questions on these forums, and note my rules referencing priority so that anyone reading my posts can make informed decisions regarding the credibility of my advice/opinions. 

[Durzan Malakim]

Just curious @G3taso, did you end up going with a darkness or invisibility build? From the discussion of all the ways darkness to mental senses can fail, I'd personally just pay the points for invisibility and call it a day.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Invis would be my choice, yeah

[g3taso]

Just curious @G3taso, did you end up going with a darkness or invisibility build? From the discussion of all the ways darkness to mental senses can fail, I'd personally just pay the points for invisibility and call it a day.

Shrouded:  Invisibility to Sight and Mental Groups , Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (37 Active Points); Visible But Not Targetable By Sight Group (-1/2)

[dmjalund]

Shrouded:  Invisibility to Sight and Mental Groups , Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (37 Active Points); Visible But Not Targetable By Sight Group (-1/2)

 

does this mean he can't be targeted by non-mental attacks either?