Curing Deseases and Poison How to:

[Durzan Malakim]

It's interesting that HERO doesn't have a condition for being diseased like other games. It has conditions for things that will come up in fights such as stunned, bleeding, prone, drowning, etc., but the only in-game mechanic for feeling bad or dying from a disease over time is either a continuous AVAD attack or a drain.

 

My guess is the lack of a simple disease mechanic is a result of HERO's origins as a Champions spin-off. Until relatively recently in the comics source material, superheroes did not get sick. They did not whither away from mummy rot, suffer from an Otyugh bite, or turn into zombies from the T-Virus. They had no need to go to the cleric for a lesser restoration / remove disease. Now that there are multiple generations of gamers who expect such a mechanic however, perhaps it's time to offer some optional rules to make this simple. Perhaps the rules for radiation poisoning (6E2 page 153-155) can be adapted for diseases.

[mrinku]

As I just posted in the related thread, chronic disease is handled as a Physical Limitation/Complication, and is a campaign, not a combat issue. You fight it with SS:Medicine, PS:Oncologist and KS:Cancer rolls and the GM's discretion. You cure it by buying off the complication, again at the GM's discretion.

 

For that matter, disease is itself an environmental thing (like fire or lightning) and not really built with points but a pure effect applied by the GM (though some effects like fire can have active points for the purposes of fighting them).

 

Cancer acts too slowly to show any combat effect. Many patients can operate pretty much normally right up until it kills them. MOST diseases would just translate into flat reduced characteristics, not STUN and BODY damage, or simply just the GM applying skill roll penalties (and yes, some guidelines on that would be nice). A head cold might not be too different to a hangover in game terms.

[Lucius]

Let me approach this from a different direction.

 

Let's say Bob contracts the Palindromic Plague, which is remarkably virulent.  (It gets you coming and going.)  Luckily, Bob's friend Dr. Joe uses the Cure (but not Heal) Disease as written above on Bob.  Now, it's not a Dispel, so there's nothing to stop the Uncontrolled nature of the Palindromic Plague, so it doesn't actually go away, but Bob is nicely safe from it, so what's the diff? 

 

After healing up his missing CON, Bob leaves the hospital, goes home, and hugs his wife and kids... who haven't been given the Cure, so they're not safe from the Palindromic Plague.  (In case you hadn't guessed, I kinda like saying "Palindromic Plague".  It just rolls off the tongue.)  Wouldn't Jane and little Johnny and Marie then contract the Palindromic Plague? 

 

(BTW, Lucius, my favorite part of your writeup was the Incantations.)

 

Now, it's possible that the condition which causes the Uncontrolled advantage on the Palindromic Plague to cease is "target has appropriate Life Support immunity".  In which case, the Cure causes the Palindromic Plague to end without need for a Dispel.  That's a fairly decent condition for ending the Uncontrolled effect, but that's not necessarily an absolute given.

Ok, tackling what I see as the most important point first:

 

Yes, it might be possible to define the Palindromic Plague as an Uncontrolled attack that is NOT stopped by Immunity. It is ALSO possible to NOT define it as Attack vs Limited Defense, All or Nothing, blocked by Immunity, nor as having any Limitation that Immunity blocks it at all. You (generic you, as in, any given Game Operations Director) could easily build diseases as something against which Life Support is simply irrelevant.

 

But WHY would you do so? And above all, why would you do so and still allow players to spend points on Immunity to Disease if those points are going to be wasted?

 

Second point (a quibble):

 

If Bob's wife and kids get sick it is NOT because the disease is an Uncontrolled Effect, but because it's a STICKY effect. But if it's Sticky it stays Sticky as long as it is in effect. That said, protecting the family still comes down to controlling that Uncontrolled effect, which is why I admit that's a quibble.

 

Further points, reasonable and un-:

 

Now, for a disease defined as Uncontrolled, a Power that is specifically designed to cure disease would seem to be a reasonably "obvious set of circumstances that will turn it off or negate it" but for the sake of the argument let's assume that doesn't work on Palindromic Plague. Well, if it's defined as Uncontrolled, it still follows that SOMETHING constitutes the "reasonably common and obvious set of circumstances that will turn it off or negate it" and if it's reasonably common and obvious it seems to me Dr. Joe will either already know or be able to find out - so one way or another, Bob is NOT going home with active pathogens still in his system. Even if it just means a quarantine until the Palindromic Plague is plainly purged.

 

But what if Game Operations Director is even more unreasonable and says there is NO way to stop this plague, that even a cured victim remains infectious for life? Again I could ask why? but that's probably a futile question. But Bob still won't pass it on by hugging his kids - Palindromic Plague, as has been noted, rolls off the tongue, and he needs to lick someone to pass it on. All he has to do is not lick anyone, or not lick something and give it to someone else to lick - no sharing ice cream cones anymore. So if you want to define the Palindromic Plague that way, YOU can go explain it to Bob's wife.

 

There are players who would enjoy playing a character with a communicable incurable disease. There are, after all, whole games devoted to vampires and werewolves. But I advise not inflicting this sort of disease on Bob or any other character unless the players have signed on for it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary cautions that I'm showing some symptoms of alliteritis, a syndrome associated with excessive alliteration..

[Beast]

this would be my take on curing the disease
this pretty much adds extra to stats that get drained by most diseases
this of course would be a multi spectrum cure
a more targeted version could be created say for str instead of dex

witches brew:  Aid  body,con,dex 3d6, Expanded Effect (x3 Characteristics or Powers simultaneously) (Body,Con,Dex; +1), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Season; +3) (90 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Minute, Character May Take No Other Actions, -1 3/4), Gestures, Requires Gestures throughout (Requires both hands; Complex; -1 1/2), OAF Fragile (-1 1/4), Incantations (Requires Incantations throughout; Complex; -1), Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (added stats do not stack above normal for the character and are there to be burned by the disease; -1), 4 Charges (-1)
 

[Beast]

I think the problem people are having is that the Immune to disease has to last longer than the disease
so if this is in an MP or VPP then those points are stuck doing that job and must be fairly nearby(that gypsy caravan needs to be around a season or 3

you, might use a transform to change some skills to immune to disease as a geas that heals back in a season or 3
the skills should be important to the receiver like OCV for a fighter or farming for a farmer

 

Let me approach this from a different direction.

 

Let's say Bob contracts the Palindromic Plague, which is remarkably virulent.  (It gets you coming and going.)  Luckily, Bob's friend Dr. Joe uses the Cure (but not Heal) Disease as written above on Bob.  Now, it's not a Dispel, so there's nothing to stop the Uncontrolled nature of the Palindromic Plague, so it doesn't actually go away, but Bob is nicely safe from it, so what's the diff? 

 

After healing up his missing CON, Bob leaves the hospital, goes home, and hugs his wife and kids... who haven't been given the Cure, so they're not safe from the Palindromic Plague.  (In case you hadn't guessed, I kinda like saying "Palindromic Plague".  It just rolls off the tongue.)  Wouldn't Jane and little Johnny and Marie then contract the Palindromic Plague? 

 

(BTW, Lucius, my favorite part of your writeup was the Incantations.)

 

Now, it's possible that the condition which causes the Uncontrolled advantage on the Palindromic Plague to cease is "target has appropriate Life Support immunity".  In which case, the Cure causes the Palindromic Plague to end without need for a Dispel.  That's a fairly decent condition for ending the Uncontrolled effect, but that's not necessarily an absolute given. 

[Beast]

the sticky I'd put a act 8- on just it  and roll on each contact(you could up infection rate, 8- is just a suggestion)
and use difficult to dispell to to dispell it

 

Second point (a quibble):

If Bob's wife and kids get sick it is NOT because the disease is an Uncontrolled Effect, but because it's a STICKY effect. But if it's Sticky it stays Sticky as long as it is in effect. That said, protecting the family still comes down to controlling that Uncontrolled effect, which is why I admit that's a quibble.

Further points, reasonable and un-:

Now, for a disease defined as Uncontrolled, a Power that is specifically designed to cure disease would seem to be a reasonably "obvious set of circumstances that will turn it off or negate it" but for the sake of the argument let's assume that doesn't work on Palindromic Plague. Well, if it's defined as Uncontrolled, it still follows that SOMETHING constitutes the "reasonably common and obvious set of circumstances that will turn it off or negate it" and if it's reasonably common and obvious it seems to me Dr. Joe will either already know or be able to find out - so one way or another, Bob is NOT going home with active pathogens still in his system. Even if it just means a quarantine until the Palindromic Plague is plainly purged.

But what if Game Operations Director is even more unreasonable and says there is NO way to stop this plague, that even a cured victim remains infectious for life? Again I could ask why? but that's probably a futile question. But Bob still won't pass it on by hugging his kids - Palindromic Plague, as has been noted, rolls off the tongue, and he needs to lick someone to pass it on. All he has to do is not lick anyone, or not lick something and give it to someone else to lick - no sharing ice cream cones anymore. So if you want to define the Palindromic Plague that way, YOU can go explain it to Bob's wife.

There are players who would enjoy playing a character with a communicable incurable disease. There are, after all, whole games devoted to vampires and werewolves. But I advise not inflicting this sort of disease on Bob or any other character unless the players have signed on for it.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary cautions that I'm showing some symptoms of alliteritis, a syndrome associated with excessive alliteration..

[BoloOfEarth]

Thank you for the "lick" paragraph, Lucius.  That was great. 

 

I guess my point is, if your writeup is supposed to be a cure, it shouldn't require a quarantine to purge the disease.  I wasn't saying Life Support was irrelevant - by all means, it would most likely work quite admirably on shielding the affected individual from the effects of the disease.  I was just pointing out that protecting the affected individual from a disease's effects =/= eradicating the disease from that individual.  In the real world, I believe a person could be naturally immune to a disease while still being a carrier.  At least, I read somewhere about people immune to HIV but still carrying it.

 

In game terms, I'd expect a Cure Disease to be either:

• Dispel with Variable Effect and possibly Expanded Effect (plus Cumulative to represent a full course of medication) to go after the Blast, Killing Attack, and/or Drain - whichever is the underlying Power behind the disease;
• Major Transform (sick to well person). 

The latter is how it's done in the 6E Grimoire, but I personally dislike using Transform in this way.  It seems... I dunno, like using a hammer or pliers to put screws into a piece of wood.  They might work but they're not quite the right tools for the job.

 

All of that said, Lucius, as both you and I mentioned LS: Immunity to Disease might very well do the trick of both defending against the AVLD effects as well as being the "common circumstance" that stops continuing effects (whether through Damage Over Time or Uncontrolled or whatever).  Personally, that's how I'd probably do it.  But I can see Christopher Taylor's point, that LS: Immunity isn't necessarily an actual cure.  Perhaps the "common circumstance" to end the continuing effect is "supercharging the patient's white blood cells", represented by not only Healing lost Characteristics, but also Aiding CON and/or BODY above their normal levels.  In which case the LS: Immunity is just a temporary fix, not a permanent one.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Now that there are multiple generations of gamers who expect such a mechanic however, perhaps it's time to offer some optional rules to make this simple

 

 

Well the main reason its not a specific single mechanic is that there are many kinds of diseases.  You can set an effect for radiation, it only varies by intensity.  You can set an effect for being stunned: its binary.  But disease can be the sniffles or Ebola, or leprosy, or a thousand other things.  Its like poison, its too variable to give a single effect to.  There are suggested sample diseases in the Bestiary, for example, but you can't just make it a status effect: disease always works this way.

[indy523]

Ah I guess you missed the part of that discussion where it was shown that Life Support does not eliminate the effect its protecting against, including rulings by Steve Long and examples from other LS effects like heat and being underwater (pressure etc).  Short Version: Life Support is not a dispel.

I think the correct answer to this question is "It Depends"

 

You state Life Support does not end the effect it is protecting against and use the example that "suddenly you can breathe water".  The book defines a certain level of this as "Does not need to Breathe".  In that case it does eliminate the effect it is protecting against which is the need to breathe.  So Logic could support either way depending only on how you define the  situational effects of how the power works.

 

The issue is subjective enough that the best answer is "It Depends" on how you are using it.

[indy523]

Thank you for the "lick" paragraph, Lucius.  That was great. 

 

I guess my point is, if your writeup is supposed to be a cure, it shouldn't require a quarantine to purge the disease.  I wasn't saying Life Support was irrelevant - by all means, it would most likely work quite admirably on shielding the affected individual from the effects of the disease.  I was just pointing out that protecting the affected individual from a disease's effects =/= eradicating the disease from that individual.  In the real world, I believe a person could be naturally immune to a disease while still being a carrier.  At least, I read somewhere about people immune to HIV but still carrying it.

 

 

 

In fact as I understand it being immune to a disease because you have had a vaccination or because you had the disease and survived it does not stop the disease from again reentering your body.  What happens is you now have antibodies to the disease which can effectively attack and destroy it before it can get into the cells and replicate and flood your body killing it.

 

So there is a precedent for a transform version of this after healing the disease changing one point of the character to LS: Immune to one specific disease I survived or the GM can give this away free in the other.

[Christopher R Taylor]

You state Life Support does not end the effect it is protecting against and use the example that "suddenly you can breathe water".  The book defines a certain level of this as "Does not need to Breathe".  In that case it does eliminate the effect it is protecting against which is the need to breathe.  So Logic could support either way depending only on how you define the  situational effects of how the power works.

 

Think of it this way.

 

You have a pill made of radioactive material in your hands.  You are suffering radiation sickness and burns.

Someone gives you Life Support vs radiation: the damage and sickness stops.

The LS wears off, and the damage and sickness starts up again.

 

Now try this scenario

 

You swallow a pill made of radioactive material in your hands.  You are suffering radiation sickness and burns.

Someone gives you Life Support vs radiation: the damage and sickness stops.

The LS wears off, and the damage and sickness starts up again.

 

Same deal, both ways.  Life Support does not eliminate effects, it provides protection from them.  Whether its inside you or not, its the same deal.  That's why its 2 points instead of 20.

[mrinku]

I keep coming back to "if it's built using powers, build a counter power. If it's a noncombat effect, probably use noncombat solutions."

 

Give the guy who bothered to spend 10 points to be a world class cancer surgeon a shot at using those skills for once!

[jdounis]

I keep coming back to "if it's built using powers, build a counter power. If it's a noncombat effect, probably use noncombat solutions."

 

Give the guy who bothered to spend 10 points to be a world class cancer surgeon a shot at using those skills for once!

 

I've come up with something like this,forcing the target to make an extraordinary Skill Roll:

 

Your Faith has Healed You:  Science Skill:  Medicine 30-, Usable As Attack (+1 1/2), Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used, Grantor controls the power totally (95 Active Points); 1 Charge which Never Recovers (-4), Limited Power Power loses almost all of its effectiveness (Only to try to cure a disease on target; -2)

 

I dont know if it is valid though...

[mrinku]

Going to depend on the genre and campaign ground rules a bit. "Do gods exist?" being an important one, as is "Do they care?" and "How come this dude can get their attention?"

 

For example, in a Malorian King Arthur game, you might expect that the odd Miracle could pop up for a genuinely pious knight, probably involving an encounter with the Sangreal (Something FULLY under GM control). In a normal sort of Fantasy Hero game a priest type might have a Contact with Patron Deity and various skills like PS:Priest. What you've tried to construct actually looks a bit like a Favour Perk, which might have been earned by the priest from their god during play.

 

"O merciful Goddess, I humbly beseech you to heal this poor soul..."

 

("Make the Favour roll. I'll give you +2 because your cause is worthy and attitude is correct.")

 

*Blinding light. A vision appears*

 

"Ah. Priestess Lucy. We are well pleased with your devotions and do recall your courage and sacrifice in bringing the sutras from Yndyaa. We are minded to grant your petition. Go in peace."

 

("Yep that did it. Roger's now in perfect health. Well done! Don't forget to remove the favour.")