Dumb questions by me

[JohnnyR]

What would be the value of "Usable on only 1 target at a time" for a power like Images?

Mental Illusions doesn't fit my concept. And couldn't find a satisfactory answer under Limited Power. Using FREd, BTW.

 

 

[mrinku]

Well, normally Images can be perceived bay anyone with the appropriate sense, so what you're doing is reducing that target set. 

 

HOW much of a Limitation will depend on context. If it's being used to communicate with a target, it could even be considered an Advantage.

 

If there's some kind of requirement that the target needs, that may inform the build, i.e. a VR communication system where only characters that have OIF VR helmets can see the images. Or a ghost who can only show images to their murderer.

 

A general "only one person" would probably come in at about a -1 limitation for my money.

[dsatow]

I'd probably give it a -1/2 limitation.  YMMV with your GM.

1. Being a single target can have advantages from private communications to misleading the target with none the wiser.
2. AoE single target is 1/2 vs AoE radius which is +1.  Since images is inherently AoE, a drop of -1/2 seems reasonable to me.

[Era Scarecrow]

What would be the value of "Usable on only 1 target at a time" for a power like Images?

Sounds sorta what a VR/AR system might work like, since they are the only one to perceive said information.

[JohnnyR]

If there's some kind of requirement that the target needs, that may inform the build, i.e. a VR communication system where only characters that have OIF VR helmets can see the images.

 

 

Sounds sorta what a VR/AR system might work like, since they are the only one to perceive said information.

You guys are good. I'm trying to convert Nova Praxis (Savage Worlds ed.) to HERO.

Augmented Unreality  This ability is defined as hijacking sensory data passing thru a target's Mindset (a web of nanomachines performing the job of brain cells), causing him to see unreal objects. The percentage of the population with a Mindset is about 33%.

 

 

 

I'd probably give it a -1/2 limitation.  YMMV with your GM.

1. Being a single target can have advantages from private communications to misleading the target with none the wiser.
2. AoE single target is 1/2 vs AoE radius which is +1.  Since images is inherently AoE, a drop of -1/2 seems reasonable to me.

 

This sounds good. But I would like to hear more ideas!

[JohnnyR]

Here's another:  How would you simulate "3 strikes, you're out!" ?

Example:  Fail a Skill roll 3 times (in a certain amount of time) and you are KO'ed for several minutes?

 

Notice the character is not affected until that 3rd failure.

[mrinku]

If it's a power with Requires a Skill Roll, Side effects could be used. If it's general for a character you could look at the Susceptibility complication.

[Ninja-Bear]

Here's another: How would you simulate "3 strikes, you're out!" ?

Example: Fail a Skill roll 3 times (in a certain amount of time) and you are KO'ed for several minutes?

 

Notice the character is not affected until that 3rd failure.

Off hand I would look at side effect for that.

[steriaca]

Three Strikes? Is this an offensive effect upon your opponents? Or an effect which is inflicted upon your character if he missed three times?

 

Offensive Three Strikes: Triggered Blast (missed a third attack against you), AVLD (NND - Inability To Be Stuned, Luck Powers), Invisable Power Effect, Fully Indirect.

[JohnnyR]

Three Strikes? Is this an offensive effect upon your opponents? Or an effect which is inflicted upon your character if he missed three times?

 

Sorry, had baseball on the brain.

The character fails 3 (actually 4 now that I read the source material closer) skill rolls (trying to make his mindset do what it wasn't designed to do. As a result, it reboots, making the character fall unconscious for several minutes.)

 

@Ninja Bear: I had been thinking Side Effects, but what value?

I'm thinking Extreme Side Effects (-1) but since the character can control/ know more or less when that'll happen, it's worth a 1/2 limitation less, for (-1/2)?

[mrinku]

Having to fail four rolls means the value of the "Requires a roll" limitation could be adjusted based on the normal net chance of success (100% minus the failure chance raised to the power of the number of required failures). However, if the normal roll was going to be 10 or less (50% failure), the overall chance of failure is only going to be 6.25%, roughly equivalent to a single success roll of 15 or less. 

 

If the success target is only one more (11 or less), it only fails 1.98% of the time, which is about equivalent to a single 16 or less roll.

 

Unless the base roll is very low, I don't actually think this should be worth many points at all, if any.

[Tech]

Images limitation: I'll go with the -1/2 like dsatow said.

 

3 or 4 strikes you're out: I might go with a Phys Limitation. It's unclear if that happens only with one particular skill, or missing the roll on 3-4 times with any skill.

[JohnnyR]

Unless the base roll is very low, I don't actually think this should be worth many points at all, if any.

Hmmm.

 

A good parallel would be the Magic skill for a Fantasy Hero mage. This particular skill is also INT-based and would be used for a variety of abilities. The difference, and yes I left out this bit of pertinent info, being that the character suffers the equivalent of a -2 penalty each time the skill roll fails (a Glitch). 3 Glitches, you are OK but with a reduced skill roll. 4 Glitches, your digital brain shuts down. Glitches clear at a rate of 1 every 4 hours with rest (read: debugging).

 

Edit: So I guess all this can be rolled into a total of a -1/2 Limitation.

[dsatow]

I would say, instead of side effects and requires a roll, I would allow the character to modify beserk to be comatose.  Effectively, when they fail a certain number of times, say twice in a row, they roll for "beserk", but instead of going made, they shutdown DCV 0 until they recover.  This is just my solution, again YMMV with your GM.

 

I am curious though as to why mental images wouldn't work with limitations?  Something like

mental images 12d6, limited effect to +10, based on alternate combat value, attack vs alternate defense (electronic mental or power defense).

[mrinku]

Even so, if you start at (for argument's sake) 14 or less, that gives a 14-, 12-, 10- and 8- roll before shutdown. It's pretty rare that you would ever see it happen.

 

I'd make it a -0 limitation, maybe as much as a -¼ one with a fixed effect "falls unconscious".

[JohnnyR]

I am curious though as to why mental images wouldn't work with limitations?  Something like

mental images 12d6, limited effect to +10, based on alternate combat value, attack vs alternate defense (electronic mental or power defense).

Not familiar with "based on alternate CV," or electronic defense for that matter.

Most of these "Savant " abilities work on a skill vs. skill contest.

 

Even so, if you start at (for argument's sake) 14 or less, that gives a 14-, 12-, 10- and 8- roll before shutdown. It's pretty rare that you would ever see it happen.

 

I'd make it a -0 limitation, maybe as much as a -¼ one with a fixed effect "falls unconscious".

Yeah, I see your point.  -1/4 sounds about right, especially since other Savants can "attack" mindsets and cause Glitches.

 

Next challenge: Gaining control for a brief moment (a Phase) of systems that control machines around you. Example:  unlock doors, close gates, fire sentry guns, surge grav generators, cut the lights, vent room atmosphere, etc.

Specialized TK? Mind Control (Machine-class minds)? Other?

[mrinku]

For my money, Computer Programming might be enough. Accessing the computer determines if powers might need to be used. If this is a situation where you are already connected to the network that controls these things, you won't need an extra mind link. If the control system is not networked and you're using some kind of machine telepathy or electromagnetic hacking, it's probably going to need powers.

 

Keep in mind the principle that you won't need to pay (or in many cases even build a power) for things that are common to the setting. If everyone is routinely connected to the internet via cranial Wi-Fi, no one needs to buy a power for it, just like no one needs to pay points for a smartphone in a modern setting. If it goes beyond the routine then you need to look at building powers.

 

Having said that, there's always many ways to do things, and limited TK is not a bad solution here. Mind Control doesn't work on dumb things, so unless you're dealing with an AI is probably not the best power.

[JohnnyR]

Electromagnetic hacking is a good description. System does not have to be networked, although in this setting almost everything is. People with mindsets make up a third of the population. Savants, who have overridden the mandated restrictions on said mindsets and thus have special abilities, are rare.

 

     Your party is escaping from Secret Research Lab after alarm goes off. Up ahead, doors close on the exit you were planning to use. At the other end of the hall, a bunch of Overzealous Security Guards appear and start firing. You all take cover behind Conveniently-Placed Storage Containers. The Savant player wants to hack the door controls (he can do this at a distance). This will stress his brain box because the mindset was not designed to be used as such. He rolls the necessary skill but fails, and his brain fries a bit (data is corrupted). He tries again and despite a penalty, succeeds.The doors open and stay open for a few seconds.

 

     Later, your party makes it to the docking bay, where Trusty Escape Vehicle awaits, but these doors are also locked down. Even worse, these doors are Heavily Secured (against hacking): -4 or such to skill roll. Savant guy tries his trick again, but with 2 penalties on him, he fails, and yep, suffers a 2nd Glitch. Facial tics ensue. Guards enter area, shooting anything that moves. PCs take cover again, and Savant dude is pressured to "Do something!" Rather than risk opening the bay doors at a whopping -8 penalty and suffering another Glitch, he desperately looks around. He notices Fire Suppression System, and prays as he rolls.

Success! Foam sprays out, covering the surprised guards, buying the party some time.

 

This illustrates how the power (with Requires a Skill Roll, of course) works. So far I am guessing Limited TK, but how to build?

[Lucius]

 

Skills can be bought with Advantages and Limitations.

 

 

Savant : (Total: 7 Active Cost, 3 Real Cost) Systems Operation 11-, Limited Range (+1/4), Usable As Attack (+1), Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used (7 Active Points); Real Weapon (-1/4), Side Effects (-2 penalty to rolls (after each failed roll); -1/4), Side Effects (Side Effect always occurs whenever the character fails for the third time; Unconsciousness; -1/4), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) (Real Cost: 3)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks it probably needs Indirect too.

[JohnnyR]

Skills can be bought with Advantages and Limitations.

 

Now why didn't I think of that?

 

Thanks, Lucius.

 

...and palindromedary.

[Ninja-Bear]

JohnnyR I'd go with Lucius's aliens on Side effect. I'm not that comfortable with the limitation to give a good guess.

[mrinku]

Nice idea, Lucius. Don't know that Usable as Attack is right, though... UOO would grant this skill to the machinery (whether it wanted it or not) which doesn't make much sense to me. Ranged skill use on something you could not normally reach should cover it IMHO. Real Weapon doesn't make much sense to me either. It's not even a Focus if it's a brain implant tech or such.

 

I think you probably should also bundle several skills to to get the effects wanted. Systems Operation may let you open or close a door, but won't unlock it (Security Systems). Likewise I can see situations where Computer Programming may be what's needed.

 

Try this:

 

Savant : Systems Operation (INT), Security Systems (INT) and Computer Programming (INT) (9pts), Limited Range (+1/4); (11pts active); 4 recoverable charges (recovered when skill roll is made, needs downtime to recover those lost to failed rolls) (-½), Side Effects (when charges are exhausted - agreed extreme effect, user is knocked unconscious) (-¾), Side Effects (-2 penalty to further rolls each time used, needs downtime to reset) (-¼). (Real cost 4pts)

 

So here you use the appropriate skill remotely on a device. If you make your roll you get your result; if you fail the roll a charge is expended. Either way you get a -2 penalty until further notice. Once you expend the fourth charge after failing four rolls in total, it's lights out. Restoring the charges AND removing the penalties is done through appropriate rest and recuperation as agreed on with the GM.

 

END use is up to you. I'd not see any real need to add it unless you really want to, but is easily done.

[Lucius]

Nice idea, Lucius. Don't know that Usable as Attack is right, though... UOO would grant this skill to the machinery (whether it wanted it or not)

Yes, exactly. You are causing the system to operate itself - the door opens itself, the sprinkler system turns itself on, the radio tunes into the desired station by itself and starts playing progressive rock, etc.

 

 

I think you probably should also bundle several skills to to get the effects wanted. Systems Operation may let you open or close a door, but won't unlock it (Security Systems). Likewise I can see situations where Computer Programming may be what's needed.

 

You may have a point there.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary tagline writes itself

[mrinku]

Yes, exactly. You are causing the system to operate itself - the door opens itself, the sprinkler system turns itself on, the radio tunes into the desired station by itself and starts playing progressive rock, etc.

 

Okay, I see that now. But as you costed it, the machine has full choice over what to do with the granted skill. You've supposedly given the door the ability to open itself without instructing it to do so. And... I sort of think those systems CAN already operate themselves, so granting them the skill seems redundant.

 

What you were after is more like:

 

Usable on Others, one recipient (+¼), Usable as Attack (+1), Grantor controls power totally (+½), Limited range (+¼). (+2 in total) 

 

...but that still seems a bit bizarre. If you're confronted with an electronically locked door, normally you would access a terminal or break open a panel and try a Security Systems roll. The desired effect here is to bypass the need for a terminal or access - Limited Range is enough for me to allow what's wanted.

[JohnnyR]

These are great ideas.

I think you probably should also bundle several skills to to get the effects wanted.

Now to throw a wrench into the plans. How can several skills be bundled into one? Is this something new in 6th ed.? Savants use the SINC skill to hack. (Self Interfacing Neural Code - a special code they write after cracking their mindset.)  So a new skill, with elements of other skills built in.

In the setting, this one skill covers all their hacking shenanigans. Converting over, I'd require the player to buy those skills separately also.

The easy way- just use the Power skill in place of Comp. Programming, Security Systems, etc. when hacking?

Am I overthinking this?

 

Note to self: get Hero 6th.