Toying with a weapon idea

[JmOz]

I came up with an idea, but it requires a custom limitation, not sure how much it is worth...

 

The power is a flash, but it does not eliminate the basic sense, rather just gives the negative combat values....basically it makes the character experience vertigo, they can see and hear but can't get their "bearings" right

 

So Flash (Sight/Hearing/Touch), NND, custom limitation

 

I am thinking -1/4

[unclevlad]

3d6 Drain to both OCV and DCV?  That'd give -2, typically.  Going the route of a Flash seems contorted.

[JmOz]

Actually would give a -2/-1 normally. 

 

I thought and discarded drain for a couple reasons.  Mostly it has to do with the mechanics, 

[Hugh Neilson]

Sounds more like a single target Change Environment (note that 6e CE is not AoE by default), or the Drain, but maybe 6d6 DCV, 3d6 OCV with a mechanic of rolling 3d6 and reducing both OCV and DCV by that number of AP, and allowing DCV to recover twice as fast as OCV. (for, say, -1/4 on the DCV part).  AVAD to swap Power Defense for Flash Defense and away we go...

 

Maybe if we knew the weapon's fluff, we'd be better at finding appropriate crunch?

[unclevlad]

What do you mean by -2 / -1?  -1 after the first round of fading...but -2 to both to start.  3d6, Expanded Effect (2 Characteristics).  Full value to both.

 

Yeah, why doesn't Drain work?  I'm much more in favor of a clean rules implementation that maybe doesn't *quite* match the SFX of source material from either fiction or a different gaming system.  That's just a translation.  Flash just isn't close.  Mental Illusions might work as a more appropriate baseline;  an illusion of being on an icy surface, or being tossed around by winds.  

[Hugh Neilson]

DCV is a defensive stat so adjustment powers only have half effect.

[JmOz]

Fluff: Darts with a special venom on them that causes a vertigo effect, basically, dizzy, everything is "off"...basically a removal of their sense of where things are.  While they can still see, and hear, it is very hard for them to know "where" something is.  I do not like the drain idea because of how it interacts differently with offensive and defensive abilities (yes I could say 1d6 linked to 2d6...)

 

I thought of CE, but did not see an option for CV (I remember 5th having it, but could not find it in 6th)

[Hugh Neilson]

OCV/DCV for CE is likely in the APG.  I think 5 points, but I am not sure.

 

Although I like Drain for the effect as it could quite reasonably have more impact on one target than another, and multiple darts could have a cumulative effect.  Plus a defined gradual recovery rate.

 

Actually, given he can still move around erratically, half effect on DCV may even make sense as well.

[JmOz]

Checked: 6th edition vol 1, Champions Complete, APG 1, APG 2

[unclevlad]

Ohh...yeah, doing it to DCV gets halved.  Always forget that....  I don't mind that multiple darts would have more effect;  with a poison, that's common.

 

APG has Change Environment options to impose limitations, remove advantages,or impose complications.  There's EGO reductions for mentalist CEs.  There isn't anything specifically for OCV/DCV right there, but imposing a complication seems VERY close.  Mind:  should the notion that reducing a defense costs double, still apply here?  

 

Honestly, dude, this is a Drain.  Fine, it's 3d6 and 6d6....or, 9d6 Drain allocated 2/3 to DCV, 1/3 to OCV.  You can split any way you want, it doesn't have to be 50-50.  

[JmOz]

Deleted due to me being snide...will repost later

[Hugh Neilson]

Perhaps the lack of OCV and DCV CE is a signal that this is intended to be done with Adjustment Powers.  -1 DEX rolls costs 3 points, and +1 skill level for DEX skills costs 5.  -1 OCV for 3 - 5 points does not seem unreasonable by comparison.  Maybe set -1 OCV at 3 points and -1 DCV at 5 due to the "defensive halved" rule.

 

If the end effect is a penalty to the ability to perceive, why doesn't it penalize PER rolls, probably sight-based PER rolls due to the disorientation?  CE holds "additional -1 to range modifier or other combat modifiers" at 3 points.  A -1 OCV modifier to all combat maneuvers at 5 points does not seem unreasonable.  4 points imposes -1 on all rolls based on a specific characteristic, but OCV isn't really a characteristic in that sense.

 

hmmm...CE also imposes a required roll.  What if the penalty were to Sight Per, imposing a roll (with the purchased penalty  to Sight PER), with failure meaning -1 OCV and DCV for each point (or two points, or whatever) the roll is missed by, as well as fuzzy perception of the area, etc.?

[JmOz]

That idea is really interesting, the idea that the roll would effect how off they are is interesting, maybe even see if there was a way to make it so the penalty increases the more they are hit...interesting, will consider...

[JmOz]

After reviewing the CE, and changing my para-dime, a -per CE might be the best way to go...The negative makes them have to take a PER roll each round, if they fail there "blinded" by the vertigo...Which will give the combat results I am looking for.  Need to do math on it still...But need to work on more Dakka for 40k, so will do it later tonight. 

[eepjr24]

I don't really care for CE for these kind of effects because just having something like NightVision eliminates the penalties in many cases. Here's something different to think about:

 

Vertigo Dart: 1m Darkness vs Sight and Hearing Group, Accurate (+1/4), IPE: Target effect inobvious to non-targets (+1/4), 30 Active Points, NND: Resistant PD or alternate targetting sense (-1/2) 20 Real Points
 

If you want the effect to be variable by round you can add an activation roll which could be defined as the target making a perception or constitution roll for an additional (-1) limitation. If they make it that phase, they are okay, otherwise they are in the dark.

 

- E

[eepjr24]

Thinking about that, you might have to add Mobile (+1/2) to it as well. 

[JmOz]

I honestly thought i had come up with every way possible, but had not considered darkness...

[unclevlad]

It's a way to go, but it, like Flash, is structured as all or nothing...they can see or they can't...rather than some form of OCV/DCV or perception penalty.

[clnicholsusa]

Sounds to me like a good place for a transformation attack:

Vertigo Dart: 8d6 Minor Transform, reduced balance and coordination to -2 CV (40 Active Points)

Rapid Healing (REC per 20 minutes; -1)

6 Charges (-3/4)

All Or Nothing (-1/2)

Limited Target (humans only; -1/2)

Beam (-1/4)

Can Be Deflected (-1/4)

Range Based On STR (-1/4)

Real Cost: 8 points

[unclevlad]

 

12 hours ago, clnicholsusa said:

Sounds to me like a good place for a transformation attack:

Vertigo Dart: 8d6 Minor Transform, reduced balance and coordination to -2 CV (40 Active Points)

Rapid Healing (REC per 20 minutes; -1)

6 Charges (-3/4)

All Or Nothing (-1/2)

Limited Target (humans only; -1/2)

Beam (-1/4)

Can Be Deflected (-1/4)

Range Based On STR (-1/4)

Real Cost: 8 points

 

I'm seeing a bad end-run to turn this into a cheap, VERY long lasting Drain, and to bypass the rule that draining a defense, the drain's at half.  And Humans is not worth much, if anything, as a Limited Target.

[RDU Neil]

This brings up a question I've been meaning to ask... didn't an old version of Hero have a simple "Give negative CV modifiers to opponent" type of thing? Negative Skill Levels of a kind?  Am I just remembering a bad dream?

 

I've always felt that Flash effects was the design standard that was never expanded upon enough. While "blind" or "deaf" or the concept of "senses" in general is rather SFX based compared to every other power in Hero... seems to me that a "Flash" like effect was exactly what we are looking for in a lot of cases like this.

 

Roll attack, roll dice, based on roll, a certain effect is in place for X rounds. No basing it around human-o-centric "senses" or whatever, but just generic effects for temporary time.

 

-1 OCV for next X rounds... or -X OCV for one round, based on Body rolled... could simulate a lot of things. Same with - DCV, - Other Stat, etc. Price it like Flash... good to go (assuming you defined a defense like Flash Defense for it in the same way, or something similarly common that a character could have.

[Ninja-Bear]

Jmoz have you’ve seen the penalties for lacking touch? They seem pretty close to Vertigo so perhaps either Flash Touch or Flash Con and just use the Lack of Touch Modifiers.  Or use CE and have that against CON and perhaps declare that a failed roll you are using the Drunk and or Poor footing modifiers.

[unclevlad]

4 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

Roll attack, roll dice, based on roll, a certain effect is in place for X rounds. No basing it around human-o-centric "senses" or whatever, but just generic effects for temporary time.

 

-1 OCV for next X rounds... or -X OCV for one round, based on Body rolled... could simulate a lot of things. Same with - DCV, - Other Stat, etc. Price it like Flash... good to go (assuming you defined a defense like Flash Defense for it in the same way, or something similarly common that a character could have.

 

In other words...Drain.  Albeit the recovery time isn't that flexible, but Drain has this structure.  Why do we need another method?

[JmOz]

30 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Jmoz have you’ve seen the penalties for lacking touch? They seem pretty close to Vertigo so perhaps either Flash Touch or Flash Con and just use the Lack of Touch Modifiers.  Or use CE and have that against CON and perhaps declare that a failed roll you are using the Drunk and or Poor footing modifiers.

 

Thought of it, only problem is it does not work against ranged attacks (the main idea)

[RDU Neil]

43 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

 

In other words...Drain.  Albeit the recovery time isn't that flexible, but Drain has this structure.  Why do we need another method?

 

Similar, but simpler. No vague Power Defense, no figuring/calculating active points, just a simple, flat effect for X rounds. Quickly applied, set effect defense one for one. Just looking for ease of use.