Toying with a weapon idea

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, JmOz said:

 

Thought of it, only problem is it does not work against ranged attacks (the main idea)

Which one? In either case, I was basing the modifiers off those but I see no problem with the GM extending those penalties to Range Attacks.

[JmOz]

To me, the simplest way is just a limitation on Flash Sight at this point

[Ninja-Bear]

2 minutes ago, JmOz said:

To me, the simplest way is just a limitation on Flash Sight at this point

That’s workable. Isn’t vertigo also caused by a disruption in the ear? You could extend it to Flash Hearing. That way a Daredevil type guy would also feel the effects.

[JmOz]

Which begs the question "Combat penalties only" is worth what, a -1/4

[unclevlad]

4 minutes ago, RDU Neil said:

 

Similar, but simpler. No vague Power Defense, no figuring/calculating active points, just a simple, flat effect for X rounds. Quickly applied, set effect defense one for one. Just looking for ease of use.

 

The simplicity is misleading.  Is this ONLY useful against OCV?  Is the cost the same on OCV vs. DCV?  What other similar things can be done with this?  And any time you start adding very narrow, specialized powers, that's both a form of complexity in its own right, and has to fit reasonable costing compared to other, existing approaches.  And in the work to remember them, or look them up.  

Hmm.  Actually you can build this in that way.  Use standard effect rules.  OCV is 5 points, so you need 1 1/2 dice to get 5.25.  Thus...-1 OCV is 15 points.  Swapping Flash Def for Power Def is a +0, IIRC, as they're at the same level.  Recovery is 1 OCV per turn.  Oh, well, hmm.  How would my 3 BODY per turn Regen come into play?

 

It's only simple on the surface.

[JmOz]

Umm...WHAT?

 

Flash effects both your OCV and DCV, which is the desired effect, the fact they can still know who's in the room without knowing there relationship to them is a perception issue. 

[RDU Neil]

They way I see it, simplified, Flash is basically 5 pts to give 1/2 OCV/DCV for 0-2 actions. Take the SFX of blinding, etc. out of it, and just look at the mechanical effect. 

 

Now, the 1/2 effect is a bad thing in general, poorly designed in terms of unequal effect (punishing higher level characters more)... so we could make it a flat -2 OCV/DCV... and make it simple 1 action (no chance of 0 or 2). That is the baseline of what five points gets you at range. 

 

Let's call this power "Inhibit"... not focusing on any particular sense or sfx. You can buy defense against inhibit, 1 for 1.  It is a pretty straight forward application of a mechanic already built. Apply whatever sfx makes sense for the effect you want, and limitations or advantages as you would.

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

FWIW RDUNeil, I suggested Drunk modifiers because of the -2OCV/DCV. Also to answer Jmoz, I would have this automatically also apply to Ranged Attacks.

[Hugh Neilson]

On 7/1/2018 at 5:19 PM, eepjr24 said:

I don't really care for CE for these kind of effects because just having something like NightVision eliminates the penalties in many cases. Here's something different to think about:

 

There's no reason nightvision would help against a vertigo dart.  Immunity to toxins should work, as would lacking a normal bloodstream, and perhaps having hardened and/or impenetrable PD (i.e. the dart can't get through). Power defense could be incorporated, given it is the usual defense against poisons.

[JmOz]

Was thinking AVAD: Immunity to poisons and Impenetrable PD

[Hugh Neilson]

Makes sense for a drain, and those defenses would also work if you go the CE route.

[eepjr24]

On 7/2/2018 at 11:05 PM, RDU Neil said:

They way I see it, simplified, Flash is basically 5 pts to give 1/2 OCV/DCV for 0-2 actions. Take the SFX of blinding, etc. out of it, and just look at the mechanical effect. 

 

Now, the 1/2 effect is a bad thing in general, poorly designed in terms of unequal effect (punishing higher level characters more)... so we could make it a flat -2 OCV/DCV... and make it simple 1 action (no chance of 0 or 2). That is the baseline of what five points gets you at range. 

 

Let's call this power "Inhibit"... not focusing on any particular sense or sfx. You can buy defense against inhibit, 1 for 1.  It is a pretty straight forward application of a mechanic already built. Apply whatever sfx makes sense for the effect you want, and limitations or advantages as you would.

So a few issues here.

 

First, you look to be limiting your scope of Flash to sight and assuming that characters have no other targeting senses. Flash can affect non-targeting senses (say hearing) with completely different effects (cannot verbal receive communication from others, hear sounds that indicate danger or someone behind them, etc).

 

Second, by "higher level" characters I presume you mean those built on more points. If so, then one would reasonably expect that they have both more defenses and a broader range of powers to include alternate targeting senses or other methods for overcoming or mitigating the effects of flash (Flash defense, AoE attacks, invisibility, desolidification, combat sense, danger sense, etc.)

 

Thirdly, what about the already defined methods for overcoming a being deprived of a targeting sense? How do those interact?

Quote

If a character can make a PER Roll with a Nontargeting Sense (a Half Phase Action) to perceive a particular target, then against that target only he is at -1 DCV, ½ OCV when attacked or attacking in HTH Combat, and full DCV, ½ OCV when attacked from or attacking at Range.

 

So Inhibit... would not affect senses at all in the example you gave? It is really a very cheap version of Drain, which would cost 30 AP or more for the same effect and introduces yet another type of defense that characters need to buy?

 

If you want a simple 1 action penalty, then apply Set Effect to Flash and you have it. If you like it better that way, apply it as a campaign norm. Flash defense is already 1 for 1.

 

 

[RDU Neil]

40 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

So Inhibit... would not affect senses at all in the example you gave? It is really a very cheap version of Drain, which would cost 30 AP or more for the same effect and introduces yet another type of defense that characters need to buy?

 

This, yes. Just using concepts that already exist in Hero, and putting them together in a new configuration.  Flat effect powers... yep, that exists with Flash. Reducing OCV DCV as effect? Yep, exists with Drain and Flash. Set number of combat actions affected? Yep, a number of situations. 5 pts per d6 of Effect? Yep... standard baseline. Characteristic roll to overcome an effect? Yep, baseline concept.

 

So I created a new power... mechanical effect removed of any SFX/senses... 5 Pts. for -2 OCV/-2 DCV for  X round, where X is # of dice rolled. Ranged. Defense is a chosen Characteristic Roll (or two possible ones) that if made, shake off the effect for that action.

Basically, disorient the target, but if they make a Ego or Perception check they can fight through the effect for that round. Can't stack. (Can't hit them twice to give -4/-4, just like you can't extra-flash and already flashed character.)

 

You don't have to like it, but it is a way of taking the basic functions of Hero, and putting them together in a new way to get an effect... not really creating a new power or new effect. Works for me and is in a comparable range of in game effect to other things already in existence in Hero.

[eepjr24]

9 minutes ago, RDU Neil said:

This, yes. Just using concepts that already exist in Hero, and putting them together in a new configuration.  Flat effect powers... yep, that exists with Flash. Reducing OCV DCV as effect? Yep, exists with Drain and Flash. Set number of combat actions affected? Yep, a number of situations. 5 pts per d6 of Effect? Yep... standard baseline. Characteristic roll to overcome an effect? Yep, baseline concept.

 

So I created a new power... mechanical effect removed of any SFX/senses... 5 Pts. for -2 OCV/-2 DCV for  X round, where X is # of dice rolled. Ranged. Defense is a chosen Characteristic Roll (or two possible ones) that if made, shake off the effect for that action.

Basically, disorient the target, but if they make a Ego or Perception check they can fight through the effect for that round. Can't stack. (Can't hit them twice to give -4/-4, just like you can't extra-flash and already flashed character.)

 

You don't have to like it, but it is a way of taking the basic functions of Hero, and putting them together in a new way to get an effect... not really creating a new power or new effect. Works for me and is in a comparable range of in game effect to other things already in existence in Hero.

Your game, you can obviously price things however you want. But 5 points for d6 of effect is not standard in Drains, which is what you are building. 2 characteristics drained for the price of 1 is not standard either, that is 15 points per die. -2 OCV is 10 points which is 3d6 of standard effect, -2 DCV is 20 points (doubled for defensive power) which is 6d6 of standard effect. So roughly 75 AP of power there for 5 points. I would be buying it, for sure. Probably go ahead and make it no range, AOE and personal immunity for 10 or so points.

 

Just my .02

 

- E

[RDU Neil]

3 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

Your game, you can obviously price things however you want. But 5 points for d6 of effect is not standard in Drains, which is what you are building. 2 characteristics drained for the price of 1 is not standard either, that is 15 points per die. -2 OCV is 10 points which is 3d6 of standard effect, -2 DCV is 20 points (doubled for defensive power) which is 6d6 of standard effect. So roughly 75 AP of power there for 5 points. I would be buying it, for sure. Probably go ahead and make it no range, AOE and personal immunity for 10 or so points.

 

Just my .02

 

- E

 

You are clearly the type of person I would never game with in a million years, as you read the mechanics as a source of "How can I abuse this?" rather than "What cool effect do I want to simulate from fiction and drama, and what rules can I use to do that best?"

 

Also... if you want to spend 10 points for an AE of -2/-2 for one action, unless they make a simple Chr roll at -1... well... just like any power... if the SFX and intended story/play use makes sense for the game... go for it. Not sure how that would be broken in any way. Buy it up to high enough levels that the Chr. roll is difficult, well, that would have to be a supers game, and then 1) the likelihood a character could make the roll is better, and 2) a simple -2/-2 isn't as big a deal vs. supers... so again... not really that broken.

You can figure out a million ways to try and break the rules "just because"... and personally, the mentality of people who view RPGs through that lens has always been the problem. There are many tools in the world that can do great things if used as intended, not abused... why RPGs should have to have tools that are somehow "unabusable" just limits design and play experience, and kow-tows to the min-maxer, rather than kicking them out of the game.

[eepjr24]

4 minutes ago, RDU Neil said:

 

You are clearly the type of person I would never game with in a million years, as you read the mechanics as a source of "How can I abuse this?" rather than "What cool effect do I want to simulate from fiction and drama, and what rules can I use to do that best?"

Thank you for the succinct summary of my inner thoughts and motivations. Your deep insights will no doubt lead to many hours of deep inner reflection for me.

 

As I have said multiple times, in your games, you do you. I am not here to bash, just pointing out what are to me obvious imbalances. I prefer rules that have been play tested and worked through thoroughly so that my players have a smooth balanced game. There is no game system that is "unabusable", but that does not mean the effort should not be put forth to make it as balanced as possible given the tools we have. 

 

- E

[RDU Neil]

12 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

Thank you for the succinct summary of my inner thoughts and motivations. Your deep insights will no doubt lead to many hours of deep inner reflection for me.

 

As I have said multiple times, in your games, you do you. I am not here to bash, just pointing out what are to me obvious imbalances. I prefer rules that have been play tested and worked through thoroughly so that my players have a smooth balanced game. There is no game system that is "unabusable", but that does not mean the effort should not be put forth to make it as balanced as possible given the tools we have. 

 

- E

 

So... if you are so reasonable, then why not say, "Interesting. I'd have to play test that a bit, to see if it is unbalanced, but let's see. It might be too cheap for its effect."   Instead you said...

35 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

So roughly 75 AP of power there for 5 points. I would be buying it, for sure. Probably go ahead and make it no range, AOE and personal immunity for 10 or so points.

 

Which is not me having anything to do with your inner thoughts, but with your specific statement of what you would do. (Or try to do.) 

 

There is no such thing as a balanced system... the entire philosophy of a "system" that is essentially well balanced programming code that, when applied, magically creates a perfect, flawless play experience. HERO has been around for almost 40 years of playtesting and revision and is MASSIVELY broken and unbalanced in many areas to this day.

 

Ultimately the arbiter of "good" or "bad" is not in any theoretical application of rules, but how those rules are actually used in game play. The one thing Hero has going for it is a variety of functional task resolution mechanics that are easily applicable to many situations... roll 3d6 under a certain value... 1d6 "effect" building block... characteristics that provide in game effects... damage/defense... OCV/DCV and levels, etc. Using these base mechanics that work well together, to simulate certain dramatic/story/combat effects seems the whole purpose of the "tool kit" design.

[JmOz]

Okay, let me end this argument now.  Or try anyways.  I am not saying Drain is not a way to go, but drain and flash can both be used.  Each has its own advantage and disadvantages.  Becomes how the player and GM want to represent the ability

 

With a flash it is extremely short termed, without buying extra senses is restricted to a sight based effect. 

 

Drain is more expensive, longer termed, and more global in effect.

 

Neither build is wrong, this thread was simply for figuring out what an appropriate limitation for "Only combat effects" should be.  I have it pegged at either -1/4 or 0

[eepjr24]

50 minutes ago, JmOz said:

Okay, let me end this argument now.  Or try anyways.  I am not saying Drain is not a way to go, but drain and flash can both be used.  Each has its own advantage and disadvantages.  Becomes how the player and GM want to represent the ability

Sorry for the derail. I'll let it go as obviously of us is changing minds here.

 

- E

[Cassandra]

Mental Paralysis would be much more effective.   The special effect is being unable to act because of dizziness and confusion.

[Hugh Neilson]

8 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

 

This, yes. Just using concepts that already exist in Hero, and putting them together in a new configuration.  Flat effect powers... yep, that exists with Flash. Reducing OCV DCV as effect? Yep, exists with Drain and Flash. Set number of combat actions affected? Yep, a number of situations. 5 pts per d6 of Effect? Yep... standard baseline. Characteristic roll to overcome an effect? Yep, baseline concept.

 

So I created a new power... mechanical effect removed of any SFX/senses... 5 Pts. for -2 OCV/-2 DCV for  X round, where X is # of dice rolled. Ranged. Defense is a chosen Characteristic Roll (or two possible ones) that if made, shake off the effect for that action.

Basically, disorient the target, but if they make a Ego or Perception check they can fight through the effect for that round. Can't stack. (Can't hit them twice to give -4/-4, just like you can't extra-flash and already flashed character.)

 

You don't have to like it, but it is a way of taking the basic functions of Hero, and putting them together in a new way to get an effect... not really creating a new power or new effect. Works for me and is in a comparable range of in game effect to other things already in existence in Hero.

 

7 hours ago, eepjr24 said:

Your game, you can obviously price things however you want. But 5 points for d6 of effect is not standard in Drains, which is what you are building. 2 characteristics drained for the price of 1 is not standard either, that is 15 points per die. -2 OCV is 10 points which is 3d6 of standard effect, -2 DCV is 20 points (doubled for defensive power) which is 6d6 of standard effect. So roughly 75 AP of power there for 5 points. I would be buying it, for sure. Probably go ahead and make it no range, AOE and personal immunity for 10 or so points.

I’m not sure it is quite as cheap as made out above.  Let’s compare to another option for the build.  It’s -2 OCV and -2 DCV for a period of time based on the dice.  I’m unclear what a “round” (RDUNeil’s term) is, but given it is 5 points per d6, I assume it is based on Flash, so that would suggest counting the BOD and that is segments of effect.  Say 3 phases of effect, so 15 points, and it costs 1 END.

A Suppress – 2 OCV, 2 DCV would have to cover 10 AP of OCV and DCV, so 30 AP total since DCV costs double.  At standard effect, that’s 10d6.  But it does not continue, it only acts for 1 action, so we will make it Instant.  So that’s 10d6 Drain, Costs END to maintain (-1/2), Instant (-1/2), so that’s 100 AP, 50 RP and costs 10 END.

Sorry, RDUNeil, I don’t need to playtest to know your pricing is a pretty deep discount.

Comparing the cost to Flash is a lot tougher, in that Flash imposes different penalties to HTH and ranged combat, is reduced by Flash Defense, and is mitigated or eliminated in effect by having compensatory senses.  3d6 Flash, NND, affects all targeting senses possible…well, NND should be +0 (move from Uncommon to Rare is +1/2 and reduces by ½ for being NND).  All sense groups?  Well, that’s 5 for Sight, plus 10 more for each additional targeting sense group and 5 for each nontargeting sense group.  That will add up fast (ratcheting END up), but the cap at -2/-2 CV is pretty limiting.  Gut feel, it will be a lot closer to 50 than 15 to get 3d6.

Change Environment to impose -2 OCV and -2 DCV is also going to cost  more than 15 points for an Instant CE (I.e, a phase/about 3 segments).

The suggested power also begs the question “what if I want a different OCV or DCV penalty?”

Given there are plenty of existing ways to approximate the desired effect, designing a new mechanic seems like serious overkill to me.

 

Finally, while "perfect balance" can never be achieved, any of us can see that making Blast 15 points per 1d6 and dropping the cost of STR to +5 for 2 points would be hugely unbalanced, so I agree with Eepjr24 that any new ability needs to be costed with some rigour.  It's not just someone who is "trying to abuse the system" that makes this a concern - if my "cool effect" is also a vastly overpowered effect, that does not make the game fun either.

 

2 hours ago, Cassandra said:

Mental Paralysis would be much more effective.   The special effect is being unable to act because of dizziness and confusion.

 

That works if the goal was a complete inability to act for a short period of time (and could be Based on CON as a drug).  The APG option to STUN using Change Environment could also be used for a similar effect. But I think JMOz is going for an effect that impairs the target, rather than denying the target the ability to act at all.

[Cassandra]

22 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

I’m not sure it is quite as cheap as made out above.  Let’s compare to another option for the build.  It’s -2 OCV and -2 DCV for a period of time based on the dice.  I’m unclear what a “round” (RDUNeil’s term) is, but given it is 5 points per d6, I assume it is based on Flash, so that would suggest counting the BOD and that is segments of effect.  Say 3 phases of effect, so 15 points, and it costs 1 END.

 

A Suppress – 2 OCV, 2 DCV would have to cover 10 AP of OCV and DCV, so 30 AP total since DCV costs double.  At standard effect, that’s 10d6.  But it does not continue, it only acts for 1 action, so we will make it Instant.  So that’s 10d6 Drain, Costs END to maintain (-1/2), Instant (-1/2), so that’s 100 AP, 50 RP and costs 10 END.

 

Sorry, RDUNeil, I don’t need to playtest to know your pricing is a pretty deep discount.

 

Comparing the cost to Flash is a lot tougher, in that Flash imposes different penalties to HTH and ranged combat, is reduced by Flash Defense, and is mitigated or eliminated in effect by having compensatory senses.  3d6 Flash, NND, affects all targeting senses possible…well, NND should be +0 (move from Uncommon to Rare is +1/2 and reduces by ½ for being NND).  All sense groups?  Well, that’s 5 for Sight, plus 10 more for each additional targeting sense group and 5 for each nontargeting sense group.  That will add up fast (ratcheting END up), but the cap at -2/-2 CV is pretty limiting.  Gut feel, it will be a lot closer to 50 than 15 to get 3d6.

 

Change Environment to impose -2 OCV and -2 DCV is also going to cost  more than 15 points for an Instant CE (I.e, a phase/about 3 segments).

 

The suggested power also begs the question “what if I want a different OCV or DCV penalty?”

 

Given there are plenty of existing ways to approximate the desired effect, designing a new mechanic seems like serious overkill to me.

 

Finally, while "perfect balance" can never be achieved, any of us can see that making Blast 15 points per 1d6 and dropping the cost of STR to +5 for 2 points would be hugely unbalanced, so I agree with Eepjr24 that any new ability needs to be costed with some rigour.  It's not just someone who is "trying to abuse the system" that makes this a concern - if my "cool effect" is also a vastly overpowered effect, that does not make the game fun either.

 

 

That works if the goal was a complete inability to act for a short period of time (and could be Based on CON as a drug).  The APG option to STUN using Change Environment could also be used for a similar effect. But I think JMOz is going for an effect that impairs the target, rather than denying the target the ability to act at all.

 

If that's the goal then a DEX Drain at Range would work. 

 

Or perhaps a minor Transformation.  Kraven locked a pair of cuffs on Spider-Man which has two effects.  One was to magnetically draw his arm and leg together (STR Drain) and the other was to ring a bell when he moved giving away his position.

[Hugh Neilson]

We've been discussing OCV and DCv Drain in 6e - prior editions, DEX drain would erode OCV and DCV in tandem.

[Cassandra]

On 7/6/2018 at 5:44 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

We've been discussing OCV and DCv Drain in 6e - prior editions, DEX drain would erode OCV and DCV in tandem.

 

Which just proves the superiority of the 5th Edition.  lol

[Hugh Neilson]

I did not find "all capable combatants must be as agile as an Olympic level gymnast, and all Olympic level gymnasts are also skilled combatants" superior.  I prefer a model where DCV or OCV can be drained (or enhanced) independent of one another, and independent of agility, but YMMV.