Normal Objects Vulnerability to Superpowers

[incrdbil]

from Champions Complete, 142

 

"BEND STEEL WITH HIS BARE HANDS

 

 For Champions games where you want to emphasize the amazing impact supers can have on the world around them (punching through tanks or melting vault doors with their energy blasts), establish a ground rule that objects have Vulnerability: 2x BODY from Superpowers. “Superpowers” typically includes STR above the Superhuman benchmark, innate Powers (but usually not Talents), and appropriate supergadgetry (but usually not normal equipment, even if it’s high tech). This ground rule should only apply to “normal” objects, vehicles, weapons, and so on commonly found in the campaign world; it shouldn’t apply to “special” objects that characters bought with CP"

 

Does this apply to Martial Arts? I'm of the thought that it should--once the damage gets into Superhuman category. (IE, any damage higher than the damage of an offensive strike done by a human with the highest possible non Superhuman strength.

mt definition of normal is non-paid for real world equipment, and any item paid for with points that takes the the Real Weapon/Armor limitation. Also certain materials in the game wont have this limit--the comic booky materials  like Questonite, Admantium, Vibranium, Dwarf Star  Alloy, enchanted Uru, Wood form the magic Ironwood tree or any other sufficiently comic booky material. 

Any  other possible complications?  Are Drains and Transforms affected? 

 

[zslane]

Yeah, the "Tissue Paper World" is a common RPG trope. Probably easiest to just rule that it only applies to attacks made by PCs and "named" villains, and not try to specify things on a power-by-power or category-by-category basis.

[Ninja-Bear]

Incrediblll afaik that rule shouldn’t apply to martial arts by RAW. However as a house rule or to simulate certain Martial Art genres, then I can see it. 

[Lord Liaden]

Something I found really useful in scaling mundanes to supers in combat, are the "Real Weapon" and "Real Armor" Limitations that all Hero System official write-ups for those items have, but none of the published super equipment does. It's logical to say that objects built with those Lims are less effective against weapons, and powers, which aren't.

[archer]

I don’t see it with martial arts. Most of them don’t literally bust down entire walls or punch their way through an engine block.

 

Think of when The Hand assassins go after Daredevil. They’re usually not ripping through walls to get to him like they could if walls took x2 body damage from martial arts.

 

 If player martial artists get it, NPC’s should get it, in my opinion.

 

When playing 3rd edition, I knew several brick characters who bought tunneling of 1” and ran up the amount of defense it could get through in order to simulate being able to punch through anything.

 

In a multipower the cost was minimal and bricks could “punch” their way through a bank vault when they wanted.

 

Something similar could have been done for anyone with energy projection powers if the player thought his character concept called for that kind of destructiveness.

[Lord Liaden]

BTW the suggestions in the OP for adjusting normal objects vs super powers are much the same as those included in the optional rules for high-powered supers gaming in the 6E Champions genre book.

[Lord Liaden]

14 minutes ago, archer said:

I don’t see it with martial arts. Most of them don’t literally bust down entire walls or punch their way through an engine block.

 

You do see that in some of the martial-arts subgenres, though. Legendary martial artists were supposed to have learned techniques granting them true superhuman abilities.

 

Perhaps a Damage Class threshold could apply to that effect.

[Ninja-Bear]

19 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

You do see that in some of the martial-arts subgenres, though. Legendary martial artists were supposed to have learned techniques granting them true superhuman abilities.

 

Perhaps a Damage Class threshold could apply to that effect.

Dragon ball Z comes to mind. And I would also argue Iron Fist too.

[archer]

I don’t have problems accepting that a legend can do it.

 

 I just have difficulty accepting that if some student with 10STR learns to do a Martial Strike that he can average doing 8 BODY to the environment and up to 16 BODY with good rolls... and that before pushing his strength.

 

PD of very heavy wood is 5

7PD for reinforced brick or a metal plate 

 

A pile of reinforced brick the size of a person would have 7 body according to Champions Complete. 

 

So such a person with average rolls could completely destroy that pile, reducing it to zero body, with 7 Martial Strikes.

 

I just don’t see an average person doing that level of damage just because of a few points in martial arts.

 

[zslane]

Iron Fist and Dragon Ball super-attacks aren't really Martial Arts maneuvers from a Hero System perspective, they are attack Powers that have a punch or kick special effect (sometimes).

 

[Lord Liaden]

Self-Inflicted Damage: This is a rule I adapted from the original (pre-4th Ed.) HERO sourcebook, The Golden Age of Champions. As it stands now the HERO rules make no provision for someone striking a hard, unyielding object with a part of their bodies and injuring themselves, like punching a stone wall, which would often occur in real life. Strictly by the rules as currently written, a human being could eventually beat a car into scrap with his bare hand.  This rule is intended to create a more realistic situation for people who prefer that in their games.

 

Whenever a character strikes a "soft" targe without Resistant Defense, like normal human flesh, he never takes damage from the attack himself. When a character strikes an object with Resistant Defense (which most inanimate objects have, and even some characters such as those wearing armor), he may suffer STUN and BODY damage up to the maximum rolled for the attack. The character's own applicable Defenses would reduce this damage. If using the optional Hit Location rules, the damage can be modified by the multipliers for the Hit Location of the body part you used to strike with.

 

If the Body damage the character rolls is higher than the Resistant Defense of the object,  and enough to destroy all of its remaining BODY after subtracting its DEF, or do Knockdown or Knockback to the target, the character suffers no damage from the attack himself.  If the character rolls more BODY Damage than the Resistant DEF of the target, but not enough to destroy all its remaining BODY, and does no Knockdown or Knockback, he takes half the damage from the attack, reduced by his total applicable DEF. If the character doesn't roll more BODY Damage than the Resistant Defense, and does no Knockdown or Knockback, he suffers the full damage himself, minus his total applicable Defense.

 

This is a useful rule to explain how trained martial artists can break boards, concrete blocks etc. without breaking their hands, feet etc.  It can also work as a weapon-breaker, with the damage being inflicted to the weapon a character strikes with, or a weapon used to block an incoming blow, instead of his own body.  It works for any object with Resistant Defenses, without the need to stat out a Damage Shield for every wall. It could also apply to that classic scenario of a normal person striking a superhuman with "skin of steel" and injuring his hand. As an optional rule for "normals" as opposed to supers, it helps distinguish the two in a superheroic campaign.

[Ninja-Bear]

3 hours ago, zslane said:

Iron Fist and Dragon Ball super-attacks aren't really Martial Arts maneuvers from a Hero System perspective, they are attack Powers that have a punch or kick special effect (sometimes).

 

Perhaps from your perspective.

[Lucius]

5 hours ago, archer said:

I don’t have problems accepting that a legend can do it.

 

 I just have difficulty accepting that if some student with 10STR learns to do a Martial Strike that he can average doing 8 BODY to the environment and up to 16 BODY with good rolls... and that before pushing his strength.

 

PD of very heavy wood is 5

7PD for reinforced brick or a metal plate 

 

A pile of reinforced brick the size of a person would have 7 body according to Champions Complete. 

 

So such a person with average rolls could completely destroy that pile, reducing it to zero body, with 7 Martial Strikes.

 

I just don’t see an average person doing that level of damage just because of a few points in martial arts.

 

 

I suspect you are arguing against a position that no one has taken.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is arguing against a tagline I haven't even posted

[archer]

51 minutes ago, Lucius said:

 

I suspect you are arguing against a position that no one has taken.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is arguing against a tagline I haven't even posted

It wouldn’t be the first time....

[Ninja-Bear]

14 hours ago, archer said:

I don’t have problems accepting that a legend can do it.

 

 I just have difficulty accepting that if some student with 10STR learns to do a Martial Strike that he can average doing 8 BODY to the environment and up to 16 BODY with good rolls... and that before pushing his strength.

 

PD of very heavy wood is 5

7PD for reinforced brick or a metal plate 

 

A pile of reinforced brick the size of a person would have 7 body according to Champions Complete. 

 

So such a person with average rolls could completely destroy that pile, reducing it to zero body, with 7 Martial Strikes.

 

I just don’t see an average person doing that level of damage just because of a few points in martial arts.

 

And by the same token (I do agree here what you’re saying btw), I feel that a Brick who has martial arts should be able to use that skill to increase his damage against such things. 

[Ninja-Bear]

I also will note that by RAW, I can have a sword bust down concrete too.

[incrdbil]

22 hours ago, archer said:

 

I just don’t see an average person doing that level of damage just because of a few points in martial arts.

 

 

Agreed. That's why I was contemplating sort of damage minimum for Martial Arts to have that ability be past any maximum a non-superhuman martial artist could do. S0 the average person would only do 4 bod, eight at best.

It comes down to normal martial artists dont get the benefits of the above rule,  but superhuman martial artists could.
 

[Ninja-Bear]

Incrdbil I would for myself just go by heroes background/sfx. For example, Crusader even at 12DC, no breaking Steel bars. Dragonmaster I could see an argument being made to allow it. 

[Crusher Bob]

Another possibility is a 10 or so point disadvantage that all 'normal' people have that keeps them from doing double damage to structures.  Then, if you want to have Batman be unable to break through walls, he can just take the disad.