Worst. Swords and Sorcery. Ever.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: My contribution...

 

Originally posted by rbezold

for worst sword and sorcery is...

 

CONAN THE BARBARIAN

The Saturday morning cartoon series.

 

It made He-Man look sophisticated.

 

The Live-Action Conan tv series that came out a few years after the Conan animation was far, far worse. I watched half of an episode, promptly turned the channel and warned my roomates never to mention that monstroscity in my presence...

[ZootSoot]

Originally posted by Agent X

Zoroaster, Persian legendary figure, said to have been born in 660 BCE long after Abraham and Moses do their thing. Oldest monotheistic - Judaism through oral tradition - For someone who tells others to study up...

 

 

My problem with the game was that they would ever put any stats on God.

 

Abraham (besides being a made up character, similar to Romulus, who incorporates characteristics of an entire people) is not presented as a monotheist. He enters into an agreement with (blocking on name but it is the name that means something like "mountain god") to adopt him as his personal god (and then as the personal god of his descendants) but does not seem to have anything resembling a belief that he is the only god. Formal monotheism is older amongst Zoroastrians than Jews.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by ZootSoot

Abraham (besides being a made up character, similar to Romulus, who incorporates characteristics of an entire people) is not presented as a monotheist. He enters into an agreement with (blocking on name but it is the name that means something like "mountain god") to adopt him as his personal god (and then as the personal god of his descendants) but does not seem to have anything resembling a belief that he is the only god. Formal monotheism is older amongst Zoroastrians than Jews.

I've heard this argument before. It's based on an interesting interpretation of the books that I can follow. However, it's only an interpretation based on assumptions of what you and others who agree with it think they should have said. Since they weren't clear enough for you, you assume what you assume.

 

And a most foul sword and sorcery movie I saw: The made a movie about Gor!

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

The Church of Pholtus in the World of Greyhawk was much along these lines, pushing worshippers to adhere only to the "one true faith". Pholtus's divine portfolio, to use a FR concept, heavily overlapped that of both Pelor the All Father and St Cuthbert. Pholtine's were famously puritanical and fanatic within the setting. The Theocracy of the Pale was a Theocracy dedicated to the worship of Pholtus. IIRC Pholtus was originally of the Flan pantheon and Pelor was from the Oeridian pantheon. St Cuthbert was once a mortal priest of Pelor that ascended to diety status, causing a schism in the church of Pelor at some point in the past. Between the three you had a kind of rough analougue to Catholicism and the various lite-Catholic churches (Episcopalian, Anglican) (Pelorite), Grass-roots Protestant (Cuthbertite), and Muslimism (Pholtus), or at least it seemed to me.

 

Saint Cuthbert was an actual Saint on the planet Earth. You can find information about him online. I even wrote a "Up On A Soapbox" letter about the mistreatment of his name. There are actually two Saint Cuthberts, both from England. The one I wrote a letter on was Saint Cuthbert of Lindesfarne.

 

The real Saint Cuthbert was a bishop of Lindesfarne, and was a combination divine naturalist, and hermit - though in his latter life he was a bishop after years of hermitage.

 

I have never heard the connection between Pelor and Saint Cuthbert, where did you get this information. His entry in the Living Greyhawk Gazzetter, says he was "a mortal man from another world," or some such quote. I always took this to mean Earth.

 

Secondly, the God of the Jews, Muslims and Christians is Omnipotent (All-powerful), he is the only God, and he has many other attributes including love, all-prescence, infinite intellect and knowledge, etc. This leaves no room for other Gods - for to have two Gods being all-powerful is a logical contradiction.

 

So no, the Greyhawk version of the Pelor, Pholtus and Cuthbert trinity is a logical contradiction as well. The Trinity of the Christian Faithful is not three gods, arguing and disagreeing with each other - its one God, and three divine persons. These three persons all agree with each other, act together in every action, share the same divine being, and share the same knowledge. Each divine person has his own function and personality, they are not clones of each other - but they are still united in the same being.

 

It would take an infinite God to reveal such a divine truth and mystery. To try to understand God is simply beyond our mortal ability.

 

The best we can equivilate D & D pantheistic mythology to Christianity is in making Saints, Demigods. Even then no Saint has the ability to create something of his own power.

 

But a Saint, according to traditional teaching - does have the ability to teleport wherever he wants, whenever he wants - has full life support, can walk through Suns (this kind of life support), cannot be injured in any way, is immortal, can cause miracles to happen as an intercessor, and many other abilities. A Saint, in the traditional sense, has died - no living person would have these abilities.

 

Take Care

[topcapfan]

Gee

 

I kinda liked the Thomas Covenant books, particularly the first trilogy.

 

I also liked the Clash of the Titans movie. Course, I was like 8 and had all the action figures.

 

I couldn't stand the Piers Anthony Xanth books, though. Looking back, I'm not sure why I read as many as I did. May have been cuz my girlfriend at the time loved them.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Galadorn

Saint Cuthbert was an actual Saint on the planet Earth.

Anybody else think Dilbert?

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Galadorn

Saint Cuthbert was an actual Saint on the planet Earth. You can find information about him online. I even wrote a "Up On A Soapbox" letter about the mistreatment of his name. There are actually two Saint Cuthberts, both from England. The one I wrote a letter on was Saint Cuthbert of Lindesfarne.

 

The real Saint Cuthbert was a bishop of Lindesfarne, and was a combination divine naturalist, and hermit - though in his latter life he was a bishop after years of hermitage.

 

I have never heard the connection between Pelor and Saint Cuthbert, where did you get this information. His entry in the Living Greyhawk Gazzetter, says he was "a mortal man from another world," or some such quote. I always took this to mean Earth.

 

Secondly, the God of the Jews, Muslims and Christians is Omnipotent (All-powerful), he is the only God, and he has many other attributes including love, all-prescence, infinite intellect and knowledge, etc. This leaves no room for other Gods - for to have two Gods being all-powerful is a logical contradiction.

 

So no, the Greyhawk version of the Pelor, Pholtus and Cuthbert trinity is a logical contradiction as well. The Trinity of the Christian Faithful is not three gods, arguing and disagreeing with each other - its one God, and three divine persons. These three persons all agree with each other, act together in every action, share the same divine being, and share the same knowledge. Each divine person has his own function and personality, they are not clones of each other - but they are still united in the same being.

 

It would take an infinite God to reveal such a divine truth and mystery. To try to understand God is simply beyond our mortal ability.

 

The best we can equivilate D & D pantheistic mythology to Christianity is in making Saints, Demigods. Even then no Saint has the ability to create something of his own power.

 

But a Saint, according to traditional teaching - does have the ability to teleport wherever he wants, whenever he wants - has full life support, can walk through Suns (this kind of life support), cannot be injured in any way, is immortal, can cause miracles to happen as an intercessor, and many other abilities. A Saint, in the traditional sense, has died - no living person would have these abilities.

 

Take Care

I don't know about Killer Shrike but I knew about the real St. Cuthbert. I bet he did too.

 

I think you are reading too much into the conversation about Pelor, Pholtus, St. Cuthbert and the like.

[Killer Shrike]

Actually I combed thru some old books and looked up some stuff on the web. As far as I can tell, what I was remembering was speculation on Greytalk back in the day. It went round and round a very little bit, with the bulk of the speculation being between Pholtus and Rao, although Phil ONeill suggested Rao and Pelor in tandem in a thread on the subject in 97 . The consensus of opinion never seemed to settle one way or the other, although Gary Holian was on the Rao side (not that this means anything official, obviously).

 

Apparantly as best I can make out Cuthberts mortal orgin "on the shores of the lake of endless depth" aka the Nyr Dyv was mentioned in an early issue of Dragon, but the details of his ascension were never specifically stated.

 

More recently in 2000 Ryan Dancey of OGL fame had this to say on the subject "In addition, there is a subtle, implied assumption with "St." Cuthbert that the god in question was once mortal, and ascended - thus creating a whole set of unvalidated assumptions about potential future development paths for player characters. The connection to the catholic saint of the same name is pretty vague - in fact, I would not be surprised to learn that the "D&D" St. Cuthbert character wasn't related in any way to the historical real-world man. We have, through imagery and re-use, essentially taken "ownership" of our vision of a cudgel wielding god. We want to keep him prominent. As one of the major Gods of the Grehawk panetheon, his absence would have been substantial to those DMs who want to try and run straight 3e GH with as little disruption as possible from the existing baseline. I feel that the final compromises do the best job we could to address a fairly complex series of opposed forces."

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Actually I combed thru some old books and looked up some stuff on the web. As far as I can tell, what I was remembering was speculation on Greytalk back in the day. It went round and round a very little bit, with the bulk of the speculation being between Pholtus and Rao, although Phil ONeill suggested Rao and Pelor in tandem in a thread on the subject in 97 . The consensus of opinion never seemed to settle one way or the other, although Gary Holian was on the Rao side (not that this means anything official, obviously).

 

Apparantly as best I can make out Cuthberts mortal orgin "on the shores of the lake of endless depth" aka the Nyr Dyv was mentioned in an early issue of Dragon, but the details of his ascension were never specifically stated.

 

More recently in 2000 Ryan Dancey of OGL fame had this to say on the subject "In addition, there is a subtle, implied assumption with "St." Cuthbert that the god in question was once mortal, and ascended - thus creating a whole set of unvalidated assumptions about potential future development paths for player characters. The connection to the catholic saint of the same name is pretty vague - in fact, I would not be surprised to learn that the "D&D" St. Cuthbert character wasn't related in any way to the historical real-world man. We have, through imagery and re-use, essentially taken "ownership" of our vision of a cudgel wielding god. We want to keep him prominent. As one of the major Gods of the Grehawk panetheon, his absence would have been substantial to those DMs who want to try and run straight 3e GH with as little disruption as possible from the existing baseline. I feel that the final compromises do the best job we could to address a fairly complex series of opposed forces."

Between St. Cuthbert, Kelanen, and the concept of Quasi-deities, there isn't that much invalidated about potential future development paths for player characters. Kelanen was a quasi-deity that was hinted at being possibly called a demi-god.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Agent X

Between St. Cuthbert, Kelanen, and the concept of Quasi-deities, there isn't that much invalidated about potential future development paths for player characters. Kelanen was a quasi-deity that was hinted at being possibly called a demi-god.

Kelanen played a major part in my own Greyhawk campaigns. I did up this whole thing called the Court of Kelanan and one of the most prominent PCs of the last campaign was a "Swordsworn of Kelanan".

 

Theres also Heward and Murlynd of course.

 

Dancey's been known to talk out of his cornhole b4, so Id take it for what its worth

[Killer Shrike]

Ok, I put the question to the great Greyhawk sage Iquander, aka Erik Mona, and he was kind enough to make a speedy response:

 

My question: "I dimly recall reading somewhere a long time ago that St Cuthbert was once a priest of some other god before ascending to diety status himself. Do you have any idea if thats true and if so, what god? Thanx!"

 

 

Erik Mona

It's (intentionally) been left unstated, but a lot of people assume that Cuthbert was a cleric of Rao in his mortal life (which likely would have been hundreds of years ago). The basis of this hypothesis lies in the nature of Veluna, which has a canon dedicated to Rao (Hazen), but which also seems to venerate St. Cuthbert per Gygax's "Village of Hommlet" and "Temple of Elemental Evil" adventures. The truth of the matter is that Veluna probably did venerate Cuthbert exclusively in Gary's original campaign, but it was made Raoan in other official products, and hence we're sort of stuck with a "two-god" Veluna.

 

Hope that helps.

 

--Erik Mona

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

More recently in 2000 Ryan Dancey of OGL fame...

 

I really have no idea who this is.

 

...had this to say on the subject "In addition, there is a subtle, implied assumption with "St." Cuthbert that the god in question was once mortal, and ascended - thus creating a whole set of unvalidated assumptions about potential future development paths for player characters. The connection to the catholic saint of the same name is pretty vague - in fact, I would not be surprised to learn that the "D&D" St. Cuthbert character wasn't related in any way to the historical real-world man. We have, through imagery and re-use, essentially taken "ownership" of our vision of a cudgel wielding god. We want to keep him prominent. As one of the major Gods of the Grehawk panetheon, his absence would have been substantial to those DMs who want to try and run straight 3e GH with as little disruption as possible from the existing baseline. I feel that the final compromises do the best job we could to address a fairly complex series of opposed forces."

 

I find this comment spurious for the following reasons:

1. He is the only deity in Greyhawk called a "Saint" which is from the latin "sanctus." meaning holy.

2. His holy symbol is a disguised cross, and to my knowledge has always been the same symbol (including the cudgel and crumpled hat as well).

3. He has the name of a real-world Saint.

4. Verbobanc, where Saint Cuthbert is most prominent, is culturally similar to England - even to the point of having historical parallels.

5. Saint Cuthbert of Lindesfarne is the most prominent Saint in Medieval England, apart from Saint George. And Verbobanc's cultural similarity to England completes the picture.

 

But at this point the similarity ends. There is another Saint Cuthbert of Mayne in the 16th century, who was martyred for his Catholic beliefs. For neither Saint Cuthbert can I find a reference to a crumpled hat.

 

Who created this Saint anyway? The quoted listed above refers to 3rd Ed. But I believe Cuthbert came from Gygax, so 3rd Edition is a little late to comment on his origins.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Galadorn

 

I really have no idea who this is.

 

 

 

I find this comment spurious for the following reasons:

1. He is the only deity in Greyhawk called a "Saint" which is from the latin "sanctus." meaning holy.

2. His holy symbol is a disguised cross, and to my knowledge has always been the same symbol (including the cudgel and crumpled hat as well).

3. He has the name of a real-world Saint.

4. Verbobanc, where Saint Cuthbert is most prominent, is culturally similar to England - even to the point of having historical parallels.

5. Saint Cuthbert of Lindesfarne is the most prominent Saint in Medieval England, apart from Saint George. And Verbobanc's cultural similarity to England completes the picture.

 

But at this point the similarity ends. There is another Saint Cuthbert of Mayne in the 16th century, who was martyred for his Catholic beliefs. For neither Saint Cuthbert can I find a reference to a crumpled hat.

 

Who created this Saint anyway? The quoted listed above refers to 3rd Ed. But I believe Cuthbert came from Gygax, so 3rd Edition is a little late to comment on his origins. [/b]

1) What other word for saint would you use in English? I suppose we could call him the Buddha Cuthbert.

 

2) The symbol I remember is one central star and eight outer stars connected with lines and a circle connecting the outer stars.

 

3) I bet they thought that Cuthbert sounded cool.

 

4) An awful lot of fantasy realms will have similarities with England.

 

5) There is a lot of picture left. I bet they were going for an English hamlet feel. I sincerely doubt they wanted to do more than lift the name of St. Cuthbert though.

 

St. Cuthbert appears in the Grehyawk campaign very early. His mace is mentioned in the artifacts section of the 1st edition of the AD&D DMG.

[Killer Shrike]

Iquander, aka Erik Mona, is a long time Greyhawk player and all-around expert. He was originally a player like the rest of us, but his impressive knowledge of the World of Greyhawk led to him being hired by WotC after they bought TSR. He, along with Gary Holian (another Greytalk member of old) and a couple of others, wrote the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer. Erik is credited with the Project Coordination as well as one of the designers. Afterwards he was put in charge of Living Greyhawk for the RPGA.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Iquander, aka Erik Mona, is a long time Greyhawk player and all-around expert. He was originally a player like the rest of us, but his impressive knowledge of the World of Greyhawk led to him being hired by WotC after they bought TSR. He, along with Gary Holian (another Greytalk member of old) and a couple of others, wrote the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer. Erik is credited with the Project Coordination as well as one of the designers. Afterwards he was put in charge of Living Greyhawk for the RPGA.

I lost interest in Living Greyhawk when they tacked Oklahoma, my state, onto Texas. As if we were going to get a fair shake with that. It would have been much nicer to be sharing the stage with several other states rather than one of the few BEHEMOTH states in the Union.

[Fireg0lem]

Originally posted by MuscaDomestica

Eye of Argon... Short story

 

http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~susan/sf/eyeargon.htm

 

Have fun!

 

"Ah the agony of this inhumanly unbearable writing!" Cried the unfortunate reader, as he shredded out the dilating pupils of his eyeballs, rivulets of crimson blood staining his extremities.

[Catacomb]

Originally posted by Agent X

I lost interest in Living Greyhawk when they tacked Oklahoma, my state, onto Texas. As if we were going to get a fair shake with that. It would have been much nicer to be sharing the stage with several other states rather than one of the few BEHEMOTH states in the Union.

But Oklahoma is our little annoying brother X...didn't you know?

[Muldegian]

Originally posted by Catacomb

But Oklahoma is our little annoying brother X...didn't you know?

 

Hey now....No need to be rude. Us OKies ain't anybodies little brother.

 

I like Budda Cuthbert....has a nice ring to it. How about Dali Cuthbert?

 

KS ....long time Greytalker here also...Though not in the last 3 or four years.

[AnotherSkip]

Oklahoma frequently gets "tacked on" to Texas. I oughta know my mom is an Okie and my dad (and I ) am Texans.

 

And Im sorry if you don't think you are going to get a fair shake in that kind of a deal, but what the heck makes you think that you are going to get a fair shake with anyone?

 

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Catacomb

But Oklahoma is our little annoying brother X...didn't you know?

Heh. Ever heard of Baja Oklahoma?

[Agent X]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip

Oklahoma frequently gets "tacked on" to Texas. I oughta know my mom is an Okie and my dad (and I ) am Texans.

 

And Im sorry if you don't think you are going to get a fair shake in that kind of a deal, but what the heck makes you think that you are going to get a fair shake with anyone?

 

I looked into what was being organized concerning Living Greyhawk when they were launching it. The Texas/Oklahoma region had nothing to offer those in Oklahoma at the time and, with some correspondence, there seemed little interest in recognizing that to be an issue.

[Muldegian]

I did some of the early playtesting with the RPGA and 3.0 when they were setting things up. The one Triad member from OK quit because of some personality difficulties and some travel difficulties. There are few areas (Like California) that can offer such a daunting ride for a game. I think one game was in Austin which is 8-10 hours one way.

 

The big deal from the Okie perspective would be that 98% of the interactives occur in Texas and many of them in South Texas (If I understand correctly). That kinda leaves the OK players playing second fiddle in the region.

 

One of the Circle of 8 was from OK and he was quite a cool fella. I would have been mighty enthusiastic about the RPGA and CONs if he had been represenetive rather than an oddity.

 

The final boner for OK was that the RPGA group here in OK is or was pathetic. In my infrequent contact with them they seem more like a home game with a title than a gaming club. I sat around 3 or 4 events and could never get to play....way to recruit.

 

Overall it would probably be worth it to someone who attended frequent CONs. I still think "Living X" could be a real riot but it takes some motivation and effort and nothing has inspired me to expend that effort.

 

[We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread]

 

Did I mention the EYE OF ARGON?

 

[AnotherSkip]

Originally posted by Muldegian

Did I mention the EYE OF ARGON?

 

 

Yes but wailing about the sheer bad luck of Texans to get slammed with Okies is much more damaging to (Insert random body part) than the Eye of Aragon

[Guest taxboy4]

Originally posted by Catseye

Worst Movie: TOR, Hunter from the Future. Definately. With Sheenah of the Jungle and Krull coming in not far after.

 

 

Come on guys, Krull is a clasic cheese Fantasy and anyone that trashes the Conan movies will have to deal with the wrath of my massive thighs...

[BlackSword]

Originally posted by taxboy4

Come on guys, Krull is a clasic cheese Fantasy and anyone that trashes the Conan movies will have to deal with the wrath of my massive thighs...

I watched the Conan movies during the holidays (nothing says Christmas like watching James Earl Jones be an evil priest). The second one was not as good, and some of the SFX were horrible. However, I think that the second captured the granduer of the Hyborian age better. There were many more shots of a large city, and the large pillars of unknown origin they went through at the beginning of their adventure.