Worst. Swords and Sorcery. Ever.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by ZootSoot

You cannot show that the earliest works included in the bible support a notion of monotheism. If you are reduced to arguing for revelation then you really need to take a step back. Revelation is far too personal a experience for you to ever be able to communicate its nature to anyone other than yourself.

 

You must be a liberal subjectivist. I don't know if you are Christian, but if you are "The Gospel which I preached to you" - Saint Paul.

 

Secondly, when did I say that I was revealing anything to anyone?

 

You need to study more, and stick to what I said not a word more, not a word less, not an inference more, not an inference less, not a jot more, not a tiddle less. Get the point yet?

[Guest rbezold]

My contribution...

 

for worst sword and sorcery is...

 

CONAN THE BARBARIAN

The Saturday morning cartoon series.

 

It made He-Man look sophisticated.

[assault]

Originally posted by Galadorn

The bible itself was written in 3,500 B.C.

 

Snicker. Chuckle.

 

News to Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul and Ringo.

 

I suppose it was written in English, wasn't it?

 

Alan

[ZootSoot]

Originally posted by Galadorn

You must be a liberal subjectivist. I don't know if you are Christian, but if you are "The Gospel which I preached to you" - Saint Paul.

 

Secondly, when did I say that I was revealing anything to anyone?

 

You need to study more, and stick to what I said not a word more, not a word less, not an inference more, not an inference less, not a jot more, not a tiddle less. Get the point yet?

 

We can start with the statement that the bible was written 3500 years ago. A patently meaningless statement given that the bible is a compilation of writings whose origin stretch over a period beginning close to the time you identify and ending around 1800 years ago and, depending on whose authority you accept, having a somewhat varying canon. My point regarding revelation is that for anybody other than the one to which it is revealed it is indistinguishable from invention. Finlly, monotheism can be dated bact approximately 1500 years earlier than your fatuous biblical date to the prophet Zarathushtra.

[Vondy]

We could also start by talking about MMM and leaving the completely fruitless, painful, and often times acrimonious and insensitive arguments about people's beliefs and senses of humor (and to think this all started over a black adder quote for God's sake) to the NGD board, couldn't we, Zoot?

 

I appeal to you because appeals the other direction, by more than one person, have failed.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by D-Man

We could also start by talking about MMM and leaving the completely fruitless, painful, and often times acrimonious and insensitive arguments about people's beliefs and senses of humor (and to think this all started over a black adder quote for God's sake) to the NGD board, couldn't we, Zoot?

 

I appeal to you because appeals the other direction, by more than one person, have failed.

Wow! This is still going on?

[Agent X]

Originally posted by ZootSoot

Norse mythology is not of the same kind as Greek. The relationships of the gods varies more from place to place, because Scandinavia never had the history of being conquered that Greece had (Poseidon is god of the sea,and the creator of horses!!!), so a dominant deity matcing the patron of the dominant race never emerged. While the most common (Snorri Sturlison's?) version has Loki bneing Odin's adopted brother, his being Thor's brother is certainly possible insome of the myths. Similarly Odin All-father seems to have been cobbled up as an answer to the Christian singular god; in many myths Thor is the ruler of the gods of Asgard and is clearly, overall, more powerful than all the others. The worst thing Marvel did with Norse mythology was the demonization of Loki who, as the Norse face of the trickster archetype, moved freely from good to evil and back again with relative ease.

They had him do good things once in a while.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Agent X

Wow! This is still going on?

I thought it was in a different thread myself. Just keeps boiling over into other ones.

 

Do the Leo Frankowski books count as Sword & Sorcery? Or just Alternative History?

Parts of his books are truly awful, which is too bad in that it's an interesting idea.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Catseye

Don't you mean the three gods of the christians??

 

Sorry, couldn't resist, and I DON'T want to take this subject back to any one persons particular beliefs.

 

But, historically, the One God concept in christianity is the One God of the jews, made 3. I find it odd that so many Christians seem to think they invented monotheism. From a purely philosophical point of view, without debating Truth of religious points of view, they actually took a half step back away from it. As they spread Chrsitianity to places that were traditionally polytheistic it took further steps away (Existing gods became Saints in places like Ireland,

Jesus became one of the Loa in the Caribbean.)

 

Actually, monotheism clearly dates back at LEAST to Egypt (the cult of Aten), that can be shown historically. And if you are a believer in the bible as literal fact, or at least embellished history, then you'd have to say it dates back further then that.

 

And the Diaspora predates Christianity by a long time, so Jews were spreading their particular brand of monotheism around the world well before the christians. They just didn't actively convert.

 

'nuff said.

Who said that monotheism was invented by Christians. I think you are mixing up what the Trinity is with something else. Aspects of God are not Gods. I really don't think Christiantiy took steps back in any meaningful way for the vast majority of those who converted.

 

The Aten Cult wasn't much of a cult. It was a religion practiced by Akhenaten and family until he was slaughtered because his belief system didn't catch on.

 

Judaism is the first monotheistic religion that was actually an integral part of a society's culture and has an indefinite provable starting point. Though I'm sure some converted to Judaism because of the Diaspora, Judaism wasn't a proselytizing religion.

 

As far as Swords and Sorcery - I think a game I should mention, was it Fantasy Roleplaying?, was way up there for me. Placing stats on God, Jesus, and Mary just freaked me out.

[assault]

Originally posted by Agent X

The Aten Cult wasn't much of a cult. It was a religion practiced by Akhenaten and family until he was slaughtered because his belief system didn't catch on.

 

Judaism is the first monotheistic religion that was actually an integral part of a society's culture and has an indefinite provable starting point.

 

First, Akhenaton wasn't "slaughtered", as far as I am aware. The backlash against his cult seems to have ocurred after his death. But there was a backlash, either way, so the details don't matter.

 

Judaism is interesting. It was very much a product of its environment. There are some suggestions of it being built up from different layers of tradition. In particular, of course, there are all those periods that the various prophets like to condemn, where the mainstream, orthodox Jewish practice involved recognition of other divinities. In particular, of course, a divine consort...

 

There were also Zoroastrian influences from the period of Persian rule. "Pharisee" is a variant of "Farsi", ie "Persian".

 

And then, of course, Judaism evolved further after the destruction of the Temple, but by that stage it was coexisting with Christianity. In a sense, modern Judaism and Christianity are contemporaries with a common ancestor. There is a third "brother" too - the Samaritans. And then, of course, there is the cult reflected in the Dead Sea Scrolls. While it is generally thought that this group was an exotic sect, the scrolls still allow a glimpse back at Temple era Judaism.

 

The Bible was a historically formed document that assembled various, usually oral, traditions. I'm not saying that it's wrong, incidentally. I just mean that it took shape in real time.

 

But all of this is way off topic. To bring it back to FH, maybe we should look at the relationship of religion and society in Fantasy worlds. We could, very easily, postulate a situation where various deities exist, with one or more of them getting a bit jealous, and demanding that their worshippers forsake all others... This could have the amusing consequence where you could have multiple "good" cults all busily trying to mess each other up, not to mention fighting the heretical polytheists.

 

I like it. I think I might use this.

 

Anyway, I think I might withdraw from this thread, since it is going into flame territory.

 

My apologies to anyone (human or divine) that I have offended.

 

Alan

[Galadorn]

Re: My contribution...

 

Originally posted by rbezold

for worst sword and sorcery is...

 

CONAN THE BARBARIAN

The Saturday morning cartoon series.

 

It made He-Man look sophisticated.

 

I missed it. The WB had a conan series for a while, it looked promising - and only that, promising - but it didn't last. I wonder what happened to it.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Agent X

Judaism is the first monotheistic religion that was actually an integral part of a society's culture and has an indefinite provable starting point.

 

Some Zoroastrians might take argument with this statement. The oldest known text for Zoroastrianism is dated (through linguist analysis) to a time before the oldest Jewish texts.

 

As far as Swords and Sorcery - I think a game I should mention, was it Fantasy Roleplaying?, was way up there for me. Placing stats on God, Jesus, and Mary just freaked me out.

 

Ummmmm, God's stats are infinite. He can be whatever He wants, do whatever He wants, make whatever He wants - and finally, in pure spirit - He HAS no stats, unless infinite is a stat.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Catseye

Speaking of things going on and on....

I *tried* to read the TC series, even though the "hero" made my skin crawl. (He's not even a good anti-hero. He's a slimey self-absorbed amoral a--hole whimp who, when not whining or raping, is sitting in a corner feeling sorry for himself .)

 

But I lost it and just couldn't go on when i hit the "Giant Story." Very reminisicient of Tolkein's writing on Ents-- Donaldson's giants are very long lived and slow moving and giant stories are INCREDIBLY boring. Okay I got it. He didn't have to then make me READ one!

 

At that point I put the book down.

 

Tolkien at least had the sense not make me sit through the Ent-moot in all its detail.

 

I read the whole first Thomas Covenant (TC) series, but cared little for the second TC series. I liked the whole thing, to a point.

 

After reading the whole TC series, I decided one thing for a fact - I HATE crossover books, TC excluded. I even read the Bakers Boy Series (The Book of Words Series), and finished the whole thing. Then J.V. Jones wrote a cross-over book, that was it for me - I haven't even checked her new books since.

 

Do authors right cross-over novels because their easier and give a ready and easily understood P.O.V. character? Don't ask me, but this author is not writing any of that junk. Of course this is all my personal opinion.

 

By the way, this IS an attempt to get this thread back on the worst of S&S topic.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Galadorn

 

Some Zoroastrians might take argument with this statement. The oldest known text for Zoroastrianism is dated (through linguist analysis) to a time before the oldest Jewish texts.

 

 

 

Ummmmm, God's stats are infinite. He can be whatever He wants, do whatever He wants, make whatever He wants - and finally, in pure spirit - He HAS no stats, unless infinite is a stat. [/b]

Zoroaster, Persian legendary figure, said to have been born in 660 BCE long after Abraham and Moses do their thing. Oldest monotheistic - Judaism through oral tradition - For someone who tells others to study up...

 

 

My problem with the game was that they would ever put any stats on God.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by assault

To bring it back to FH, maybe we should look at the relationship of religion and society in Fantasy worlds. We could, very easily, postulate a situation where various deities exist, with one or more of them getting a bit jealous, and demanding that their worshippers forsake all others... This could have the amusing consequence where you could have multiple "good" cults all busily trying to mess each other up, not to mention fighting the heretical polytheists.

 

Alan

The Church of Pholtus in the World of Greyhawk was much along these lines, pushing worshippers to adhere only to the "one true faith". Pholtus's divine portfolio, to use a FR concept, heavily overlapped that of both Pelor the All Father and St Cuthbert. Pholtine's were famously puritanical and fanatic within the setting. The Theocracy of the Pale was a Theocracy dedicated to the worship of Pholtus. IIRC Pholtus was originally of the Flan pantheon and Pelor was from the Oeridian pantheon. St Cuthbert was once a mortal priest of Pelor that ascended to diety status, causing a schism in the church of Pelor at some point in the past. Between the three you had a kind of rough analougue to Catholicism and the various lite-Catholic churches (Episcopalian, Anglican) (Pelorite), Grass-roots Protestant (Cuthbertite), and Muslimism (Pholtus), or at least it seemed to me.

[AnotherSkip]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip

30+ books worth of tawdry bdsm?

 

yeah it's definately a good option on the betting poll.

 

New Option: I thought about it and I decided that ERB is the clear winner.

 

There are few series written by people who thought that they could write just as badly as their peers and are _exactly_ 12 books long.

 

heh and I quoted myself to get people off of the ot stuff!

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

The Church of Pholtus in the World of Greyhawk was much along these lines, pushing worshippers to adhere only to the "one true faith". Pholtus's divine portfolio, to use a FR concept, heavily overlapped that of both Pelor the All Father and St Cuthbert. Pholtine's were famously puritanical and fanatic within the setting. The Theocracy of the Pale was a Theocracy dedicated to the worship of Pholtus. IIRC Pholtus was originally of the Flan pantheon and Pelor was from the Oeridian pantheon. St Cuthbert was once a mortal priest of Pelor that ascended to diety status, causing a schism in the church of Pelor at some point in the past. Between the three you had a kind of rough analougue to Catholicism and the various lite-Catholic churches (Episcopalian, Anglican) (Pelorite), Grass-roots Protestant (Cuthbertite), and Muslimism (Pholtus), or at least it seemed to me.

Are you basing this on the Codex? I've read 2 or 3 contradictory explanations. One thing I read placed St. Cuthbert as a priest of Pholtus!

 

Biggest Complaint about Greyhawk: If you've got one saint where are the others.

 

One thing I did was expand the Feast of Edoira mentioned in the combined Slave Lords modules to explain some things. I had the Pact of Edoira be an agreement among some of the gods that I thought had a similar kind of vibe: Celestian, Farlanghn, Heironeous, Ehlonna, St. Cuthbert, Rao, etc.

[assault]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip

New Option: I thought about it and I decided that ERB is the clear winner.

 

Assault looks confused. Then he takes out his knife and looks kind of "stabby".

 

OK, ERB wasn't the best writer in the world, but he sure as shootin' wasn't the worst. Get a grip. I mean, have you read the freakin' Gor books? They're like Burroughs if Dejah Thoris decided she wanted to be a slave and get her a** whipped. Regularly.

 

Alan

[Vondy]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip

New Option: I thought about it and I decided that ERB is the clear winner.

 

 

I think there are far worse hacks than ERB out there. He wasn't a brilliant writer, but he did have a wonderful imagination and provided a sense of adventure to his stories.

 

He worked with ideas far better than he worked with words. A lot of his peers (and those who followed him) didn't do well with either.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Agent X

Zoroaster, Persian legendary figure, said to have been born in 660 BCE long after Abraham and Moses do their thing. Oldest monotheistic - Judaism through oral tradition - For someone who tells others to study up...

 

I'll have to check my notes, I believe the oldest texts to his religion were long before that time.

 

Anyway, oral tradition cannot be proved. Linguistic analysis does say that the stories of creation and such pre-dated the written Jewish traditions, but that is hardly proof. It is supportive evidence, but not proof.

 

My problem with the game was that they would ever put any stats on God.

 

I agree.

[lemming]

Anyone else ever read Eye of Argon?

 

Whoops. Already mentioned in this thread.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Agent X

Are you basing this on the Codex? I've read 2 or 3 contradictory explanations. One thing I read placed St. Cuthbert as a priest of Pholtus!

Pretty sure it was Pelor, but Im operating from my aging memory so take that for what its worth. Maybe Heirax, or any other Greyhawkers out there, will chime in.

 

Originally posted by Agent X

Biggest Complaint about Greyhawk: If you've got one saint where are the others.

 

Heh. Yeah. I always insist that he be called just "Cuthbert" in my campaigns -- particularly now that he's an actual god. Seems silly to have a god whose name starts with "Saint".

 

Originally posted by Agent X

One thing I did was expand the Feast of Edoira mentioned in the combined Slave Lords modules to explain some things. I had the Pact of Edoira be an agreement among some of the gods that I thought had a similar kind of vibe: Celestian, Farlanghn, Heironeous, Ehlonna, St. Cuthbert, Rao, etc.

 

Ill have to drag out my copy of Slave Lords to look that one up -- do you mean the old one that combined A1 - A4 IIRC into one cover, with the brownish cover and modular map bits in the back cover envelope, or the more recent Return of the Slave Lords module?

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Galadorn

 

I'll have to check my notes, I believe the oldest texts to his religion were long before that time.

 

Anyway, oral tradition cannot be proved. Linguistic analysis does say that the stories of creation and such pre-dated the written Jewish traditions, but that is hardly proof. It is supportive evidence, but not proof.

 

 

 

I agree. [/b]

Oral tradition can be backed up with archaeology. Apiru/Hebrew in Egypt with the Hyksos, etc.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Pretty sure it was Pelor, but Im operating from my aging memory so take that for what its worth. Maybe Heirax, or any other Greyhawkers out there, will chime in.

 

 

 

Heh. Yeah. I always insist that he be called just "Cuthbert" in my campaigns -- particularly now that he's an actual god. Seems silly to have a god whose name starts with "Saint".

 

 

 

Ill have to drag out my copy of Slave Lords to look that one up -- do you mean the old one that combined A1 - A4 IIRC into one cover, with the brownish cover and modular map bits in the back cover envelope, or the more recent Return of the Slave Lords module?

I mean the old one. I didn't buy Return of the Slave Lords. That's covered territory in my old campaign.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Agent X

Oral tradition can be backed up with archaeology. Apiru/Hebrew in Egypt with the Hyksos, etc.

 

Judaism itself holds that monotheism predates it as a religion. In fact it holds that while the patriarchs were monotheists who passed the core traditions of belief onto their descendents - the the patriarchs themselves were not practicing Judaism (as the basis of Judaism is the revelation of Moses).

 

We say the Patriarchs fufilled the entire Torah, but this is a largely metaphorical statement. It simply means they lived in accordance with their own seminal (from a Jewish perspective) and authentic revelation of God.

 

Indeed, we presume that the titular "first Jews" (the patriarchs, who would have been akkaddians in all likelihood) received an oral tradition surrounding creation and the nature of godliness that predated them.

 

Bereishit (Genesis), also called the sefer avot (book of the patriarchs) is included in the Five Books of Moses becuase he was the one who codified the oral traditions surrounding the patriarchs (and passed through them) in written form. Most rabbinic commentaries trace the chain back to Shem, who is recorded as having contact with Abraham in the bible, then to Noah, and then to his anscestors.

 

In other words: we make no claim to be the first monotheists, just the oldest living monotheists. The fire of those who came before us has passed from the world.